The Instigator
FrackJack
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
TUF
Con (against)
Winning
15 Points

Navi shouldn't have awaken Link up.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
TUF
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/2/2013 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,029 times Debate No: 35195
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (18)
Votes (3)

 

FrackJack

Pro

R1 is for acceptance, but Con can post his/her opening shots,

RULES:

1) No semantics.

2)"Should have" means there would be better results.

3)OOT: Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time

4)This is a debate about the game ONLY. Anything esle is not considered.

5)

This is a video that shows the background to the debate.


6) This is SERIOUS. No "Then OOT would be a shitty game!" arguments.



I will pick TUF.




TUF

Con

I will let my opponent start this debate. Good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
FrackJack

Pro

I thank the all mighty TUF for accepting this debate.


Note: "Gerudo" will be the term for the 'human' version of Ganondorf. "Ganondorf" will imply has the Triforce.



Now, 6 items are needed to get to the Triforce:


The 3 Gems, The Song of Time, the Ocarina of Time and arguebly, the Master Sword.


If you aren't familer with the game, I suggest you leave, but, I will say that Con has the BOP on refuting all point points on each item. Let's say Gerudo never gets his hands on the Kokiri Emerald. The Emerald is needed to open the Door of Time each leads to the Master Sword. No Emerald equals no Triforce, and there is no other way to reach the Triforce. Simlilar arguemnts stand for the other Gems.


I will expand next round. To you Tuf.
TUF

Con

Definitions and Terms:
Triforce- The Triforce consists of three separate sacred golden triangles: the Triforce of Power (top), the Triforce of Wisdom (left), and the Triforce of Courage (right). The Triforce has the power to grant the wish of whomever touches it, and molds the Sacred Realm to reflect that person's heart.

"It can only be called fate... That here, I would again gather the three with the crests... That I should lay my hand on that which grants the wishes of the beholder. That when power, wisdom, and courage come together, the gods would have no choice but to come down... The power of the gods... The Triforce! He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted!"— Ganondorf

http://zelda.wikia.com...

Master Sword- is a recurring sword in the Legend of Zelda series. It is imbued with the power to vanquish evil. In many games, it is said to be the only sword capable of defeating the malevolent Ganondorf and his demonic alternate form, Ganon.

"The Master Sword is a sacred blade which evil ones may never touch.... Only one worthy of the title of "Hero of Time" can pull it from the Pedestal of Time...."— Rauru

http://zelda.wikia.com...

Ocarina of Time- The Ocarina of time is a recurring item in the Legend of Zelda series. The Ocarina of Time is a unique ocarina secretly handed down for generations by Hyrule's Royal Family.

"On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time. Ganondorf' s target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm... the hidden treasure of the Royal Family... The Ocarina of Time!"— Impa

http://zelda.wikia.com...

Spiritual Stones- The Spiritual Stones are quest items from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The Spiritual Stones are three mystical gems consisting of the Kokiri's Emerald, Goron's Ruby, and Zora's Sapphire.

"The Temple of Time is the entrance through which you can enter the Sacred Realm from our world. But the entrance is sealed with a stone wall called the Door of Time. And, in order to open the door, it is said that you need to collect three Spiritual Stones."— Princess Zelda


The Song of time- This mysterious song has several abilities that are activated when the song is played on the Ocarina of Time. It also appears as recurring background music associated with theTemple of Time. This song is needs to be played in order to enter the Sacred Realm.

"If something should happen to you, remember this song... The Goddess of Time is protecting you. If you play the Song of Time, she will aid you..."— Princess Zelda




MY CASE

Contention 1: The Master Sword was needed to stop Ganondorf

My opponent references that opening the portal of time to get the master sword was a bad thing, as it led to Gerudo ultimately achieving the Tri-force. However, let's not forget that the purpose of the master sword is to destroy evil.

"More than mere steel, the Master Sword holds the power to repel those aligned with evil."

http://zelda.wikia.com...

The Master Sword was a big part of destroy Gerudo and the main reason Link opens the portal of time in the first place. But let's say he didn't do this.

Achieving the Three stones was done by Link in order to get the Master Sword to use against Gerudo. In Opening the door of time, Link was suspended in time which allowed Gerudo to gain access to the Sacred Realm ad achieve the Tri-Force.

Contention 2: Ganondorf Could have Achieved the Stones himself.

Link really cannot be blamed for Gerudo Gaining his power. With his malicious intent, it is plausible to believe that Gerudo would have gained the spiritual stones by himself through his own conventional means. If he did this, and entered the door of time by himself, it's likely that no one would have had the power to stop him. The fact that link took the Master Sword by using the stones, allowed him the ability to Destroy Ganondorf in the end. According to the definition provided above, The Master Sword is probably the only weapon that could have effected Ganondorf. See video.



Ultimately nothing that link did was not something Gerudo Could not have done himself.

Contention 3: Without Link Ganondorf would likely have not been defeated.

Through Ganondorf' s Seven years of power, Nobody stopped him. He simply remained powerful and strong in his castle. No one else had the courage, or was even eligible to use the Master Sword. It was for these reasons, that it was suggested by the Great Deku Tree to retrieve Link.

"Knowing Link's destiny, the Deku Tree sends Navi the fairy to retrieve the boy, who is living among the Kokiri as one of them."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So not only did Link Prevent further years of torment of Hyrule, he was possibly the only person EVER who even had the ability to do so. At worst, he prevented Hyrule's demise from being extended to someone else who may have had the small chance of doing themselves. But according to the Deku's Tree's knowledge, Link was the only one who could do it in the first place.

Conclusion:

In accordance to the resolution, there is no reason that Navi shouldn't have woken Link up. Link was ready, willing, and able, and those are all the traits a hero needs. Link fulfilled his Destiny as prophesied by the Great Deku Tree, and prevented more years of continuous torment. Gerudo has every ability to gain access to the Tri-Force. The most my opponent can argue, is that it may have taken him longer without Link. Either way, Gerudo's intentions were clear. Ultimately it didn't matter anyway, because his heart was to evil and power driven to ever achieve anything more than the power Piece of the Tri-force.

I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. (JK lol).

I pass the debate back on to my opponent. Good luck mate!

"Hoooo. You're a smart kid. Good luck, then. Hoo hoo." - Kaepora Gaebora

Debate Round No. 2
FrackJack

Pro

My opponent references that opening the portal of time to get the master sword was a bad thing, as it led to Gerudo ultimately achieving the Tri-force. However, let's not forget that the purpose of the master sword is to destroy evil."More than mere steel, the Master Sword holds the power to repel those aligned with evil." The Master Sword was a big part of destroy Gerudo and the main reason Link opens the portal of time in the first place. But let's say he didn't do this. Achieving the Three stones was done by Link in order to get the Master Sword to use against Gerudo. In Opening the door of time, Link was suspended in time which allowed Gerudo to gain access to the Sacred Realm ad achieve the Tri-Force.


TUF forgets the purpose of the Master Sword.It is to seal away great evil. However!You didn't really NEED the Master Sword to kill Gerudo. Link needed the Master Sword because Gerudo had a piece of the Triforce, and that only the Master Sword would get the job done.Here is the 'but': There is no reason to think Gerudo couldn't be killled by anything besides the Master Sword. Case-in-point, the Biggoron Sword.

Link really cannot be blamed for Gerudo Gaining his power. With his malicious intent, it is plausible to believe that Gerudo would have gained the spiritual stones by himself through his own conventional means. If he did this, and entered the door of time by himself, it's likely that no one would have had the power to stop him. The fact that link took the Master Sword by using the stones, allowed him the ability to Destroy Ganondorf in the end. According to the definition provided above, The Master Sword is probably the only weapon that could have effected Ganondorf. See video. Ultimately nothing that link did was not something Gerudo Could not have done himself
.


It is likely Gerudo could have taken it, butthegame clearly implies he does try and fail. But, I play along.Lets say Gerudo marchs to theKokiri Forest andburnsit down along with the Great Deku tree.He kills all that get in his away. Then, he goes to Death mountian and does the same with the Gorons, who are no push overs. Then the Zora Domain. And remember, the Stones are better protected then what I am making it seem. They were protected quite well. But again. Then with all the Stones, Gerudo goes to the Temple of Time and plays the Song of Time with the Ocarina. He then marchs to the TheMaster Sword, and in order to get to the Triforce, he beggins to lif--Oh wait. He can't. He is evil. He can't enter the Realm because he got cockblocked by the proverbial Sword in the Stone. No Triforce. And no Hyrule. TUF luck( get it?).

Through Ganondorf' s Seven years of power, Nobody stopped him. He simply remained powerful and strong in his castle. No one else had the courage, or was even eligible to use the Master Sword. It was for these reasons, that it was suggested by the Great Deku Tree to retrieve Link.

First of all, TUF concedes that Gerudo needed Link for the Master Sword. But when you see when Gerudo attacked Hyrule castle, there wasn't a burned down building or any visible deaths. Then Link went in the Temple to make things FUBAR.Conclusion:I will say that Gerudo got the Triforce purely on the base of Link. The Master wasn't neeeded to kill Gerudo. Anyway, Im out of town for the next 2 days so I will ask TUF to delay his next round for a day or so.

Praise the LORD AND HIS NOODLES; THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER.



Bless you DDO for messing up my round setup.
TUF

Con

I have waited two days as my opponent requested.


REBUTTALS

Contention 1: The Master Sword was needed to stop Ganondorf

My opponent has made a fatal error in his last argument, that is actually false in conjunction to the game. My opponent dis-regarded the link I posted earlier which evidenced that the master sword is the only weapon to have stopped Gird in his statement of: You didn't really NEED the Master Sword to kill Gerudo.

For reference, I'll again post the definition that I posted right at the beginning of my argument in R2 that contradicts this.

"Master Sword- is a recurring sword in the Legend of Zelda series. It is imbued with the power to vanquish evil. In many games, it is said to be the only sword capable of defeating the malevolent Ganondorf and his demonic alternate form, Ganon. "

http://zelda.wikia.com...

So here is the first flaw with my opponents rebuttal. But wait! There is a second one as well!


FrackJack- "There is no reason to think Gerudo couldn't be killed by anything besides the Master Sword. Case-in-point, the Biggoron Sword."

Again this statement is FALSE. The Biggoron sword can be used at best as help in the fight against Gerudo, but it is incapable of winning the fight against him.

"The Biggoron's Sword is incapable of defeating Ganon's beast form as only the Master Sword can deliver the final blow. "

Also the Biggoron sword is a two handed weapon. Before Gerudo changes to Ganon, he uses a reflexive blast that can only be deflected via a shield, meaning Link would need the master sword anyway, or he would have died. Finally, in the fight against Gannon (Gerudo's beast form) it's impossible to put the finishing blow on him without the master sword, as quoted above. While the sword can be used to help in the fight once the master sword is knocked away, it can never actually kill him as my opponent suggested. There are three loop holes in my opponents arguments.

Please watch the video above for context to the fight between Link and Gannon (specifically 6:40-7:10 where it shows Link needing the master sword for the final blow).



http://zeldawiki.org...'s_Sword

Contention 2: Ganondorf could have achieved the stone himself.

Ganondorf already had plans to get all three of the stones that were a work in progress.

1. The Deku tree was dying from the curse placed on him. Upon Deku's death, access to Kokiri's Emerald would have been far too easy for him.

"The Kokiri's Emerald is held by the Great Deku Tree and the Kokiri in the Kokiri Forest. WhenGanondorf came to steal the Emerald, the tree refused to hand it over. In return, Ganondorf curses the tree with Queen Gohma and her evil underlings."

2. Ganondorf cut of the Goron's food supply, and put their lair under threat of death with his curse. Eventually Darunia would have had to sacrifice the stones, or risk him, and his race dying off over Goron's Ruby.

"While reluctant to aid Link, Darunia tells him that in return for not giving him the Spiritual Stone, Ganondorf summoned a mighty boulder to block access to the Dodongo's Cavern, the Gorons' primary food source. Additionally, he caused the Dodongos residing within to grow rapidly, filling it with the evil creatures."

3. And finally Ganondorf had plans laid out for Zora's stone as well. Ganondorf has trapped Zora in Lord Jabu-Jabu until she bargained the stone, and in this scenario, it is VERY likely to believe that she might have given it to him had Link not saved her.

"The letter states that she is stuck inside Lord Jabu-Jabu, the guardian god of the Zora. Apparently, Ganondorf had also come to Zora's Domain in search of the Sapphire, but King Zora XVI refused to give it to him. Ganondorf, in turn, cursed Lord Jabu-Jabu with an army of Bari led by the monster Barinade."

http://zelda.wikia.com...

The point is, Ganondorf had every plan lined up in order to achieve the stones, as was in the process of achieving them himself. Remember, Ganondorf is called "the king of thieves". ;-)

Next my opponent states that the mastersword could not have been acquired by Ganondorf had it not been for Link. Again this is false because "A noble person pulling it from a pedestal" is only one of the four methods of acquiring the master sword. 3 out of the 4, involved in getting the sword, consist of using another sword, to forge, or find it.

"Three of the four methods of acquiring it entail it being made from an existing sword, which does not share the Master Sword's traditional origins."

http://zelda.wikia.com...

However, even without this argument, the statement of "Navi shouldn't have woken Link up," is invalid. Ganondorf was running around the country side cursing everyone, threatening entire race's from existence, and capturing Gods. The dude was an absolute evil nut case and needed to be stopped. Even if the Deku tree knew that Ganondorf couldn't achieve access to the Tri-force and Hyrule, he still would have needed to call upon link. Remember, the entire purpose of him calling Link was for help against his curse; most of the big story plot came into play after Link discovered the bulk of what Ganondorf was up to.

So even without access to Hyrule, Ganondorf was a threat to everyone and everything, and Link being the only one to be able to access the Mastersword, would have needed to pull it from the pedestal anyway in order to kill him. It is either that, or let the nut case run free reigning terror upon the land at his own will. Link was the only person who could kill him period, meaning it was overall beneficial for Navi to have woken him up.

But really, all Link grabbing the Master Sword did was give Ganondorf access to Hyrule. Their was a loophole with Him using the Tri-force to being with because his heart had too much power drive, rather than wisdom, or courage. This is how he ended up getting his plans messed up in the first place: Link was stuck in time, though he had the the third piece embedded within him. So with it being said that Link was the ONLY one who could defeat Ganondorf, the evil thief king, is it so bad that Ganondorf got a hold of Hyrule to really do the same thing he could have done almost anywhere else in the world? The Tri-force did nothing for him, so only Link getting the master sword, in the end only benefited Hyrule.

"He already had it due to the events of Ocarina of Time, hence Link and Zelda already having their respective pieces from their ancestors, the Link and Zelda of Ocarina of Time. Link tipped the King of Hyrule and Zelda off about Ganondorf treachery before it could happen at the end of Ocarina of Time, and he was subdued before the siege of Hyrule Castle could take place. However, the Triforce still remained scattered from the events of Ocarina of Time."

http://zeldawiki.org...

Contention 3: Without Link Ganondorf would likely have not been defeated.

While my opponent quotes this argument, he doesn't actually respond to it. Instead he just repeats arguments he made against my contention 2.

With that said I am going to consider this contention DROPPED.

"Frack: First of all, TUF concedes that Gerudo needed Link for the Master Sword."

Yes. So? This argument works in my favor, because without the master sword Ganondorf could not have been defeated. (side note, we should stop calling him Gerudo as opposed to Ganondorf HIS REAL name, as Gerudo is just his race. That's like calling a black person "Blackie" instead of their real name.)

Also how did Link make things FUBAR? lol By defeating the evil King? The king dying, is what destroyed the castle IE had nothing to do with link, other than the fact that link killed him. So are you saying a burnt down tower wasn't good enough reason to destroy him?

Anyways' this is all besides the point. The point is: Who else could have killed him? And if there is someone, why didn't they do it in the seven years?

Fin.

Debate Round No. 3
FrackJack

Pro

TUF's P1:

Ganon could only shift into his other form with the Triforce of Power. There is no evidence Ganon had immorality with the Triforce.


1. The Deku tree was dying from the curse placed on him. Upon Deku's death, access to Kokiri's Emerald would have been far too easy for him.

"The Kokiri's Emerald is held by the Great Deku Tree and the Kokiri in the Kokiri Forest. WhenGanondorf came to steal the Emerald, the tree refused to hand it over. In return, Ganondorf curses the tree with Queen Gohma and her evil underlings."

And what was Ganon waiting for? If he could, why didn't he take it in the first place?


2. Ganondorf cut of the Goron's food supply, and put their lair under threat of death with his curse. Eventually Darunia would have had to sacrifice the stones, or risk him, and his race dying off over Goron's Ruby.

False. Gorons literallly lived on top of their food source. When the Gorons stop acting like pansys and ate normal rocks, they would live. BAM. Ruby saved.

3. And finally Ganondorf had plans laid out for Zora's stone as well. Ganondorf has trapped Zora in Lord Jabu-Jabu until she bargained the stone, and in this scenario, it is VERY likely to believe that she might have given it to him had Link not saved her.


No. Ruto been in Jabu-Jabu before. And it wasn't Ganon who put her in there.




Yes. So? This argument works in my favor, because without the master sword Ganondorf could not have been defeated. (side note, we should stop calling him Gerudo as opposed to Ganondorf HIS REAL name, as Gerudo is just his race. That's like calling a black person "Blackie" instead of their real name.)


Assupmtion. Ganon wasn't THAT tough before he got the Triforce.





Sorry for the lack of arguments. I feel sick.
TUF

Con

For the sake of being cordial, I will forget about the arguments that Frack has dropped since he was kind enough to admit to it. I will allow voters to make of this as they wish.

Since the structure and format has been destroyed, I will just follow my opponents lead and post quotes, and argue.



FRACK: Ganon could only shift into his other form with the Triforce of Power. There is no evidence Ganon had immorality with the Triforce.

Again, Ganondorf would have gained power regardless because without Link, no one would have stopped him. Without Link taking the sword, Ganondorf would have gained his position regardless. He had a will, he had a way, and it would have happened with or without Link being present. So if Link never had the MasterSword, Ganondorf would have stayed in power for years on end.

FRACK (in regards to the kokiri emerald): And what was Ganon waiting for? If he could, why didn't he take it in the first place?

The Deku didn't die (conveniently) until right after link Destroyed the curse. Ganondorf was waiting for the curse to take it's effect before taking the emerald. Unfortunately he never got the chance, because Link was there to grab it from Deku. Had link not been waken up by Navi, Ganondorf would have won the emerald.

FRACK:(in response to the ruby) False. Gorons literally lived on top of their food source. When the Gorons stop acting like pansy's and ate normal rocks, they would live. BAM. Ruby saved.

I call a false on your false. It is not game accurate, as according to the game, the Gorons needed this specific rock in order to survive.

"Their primary source of food is rocks from Dodongo's Cavern; however, when Ganondorf seals the cave after their patriarchDarunia refuses to give him the Goron's Ruby, they face the threat of starvation and extinction as a result of being separated from the nutritious rocks of Dodongo's Cavern"

http://zelda.wikia.com...

FRACK: (in response to Zora's stone):
No. Ruto been in Jabu-Jabu before. And it wasn't Ganon who put her in there.

She was specifically sealed in their, with a curse placed on her from Ganondorf, so your assumption is wrong. I'll link this wiki:

"Link finds a bottle by the waters of Lake Hylia containing a letter supposedly written by Ruto. The letter states that she is stuck inside Lord Jabu-Jabu, the guardian god of the Zora. Apparently, Ganondorf had also come to Zora's Domain in search of the Sapphire, but King Zora XVI refused to give it to him. Ganondorf, in turn, cursed Lord Jabu-Jabu with an army of Bari led by the monsterBarinade. Link ventures into Jabu-Jabu and saves Ruto."

http://zelda.wikia.com...

FRACK (in response to Ganondorf' s power): Assumption. Ganon wasn't THAT tough before he got the Triforce.

The game does not reference anyone else having the physical capability to destroy ganondorf outside of link. Even the Deku tree says that it is in Link's destiny to defeat him. If you don't buy this, than why didn't any stop Ganondorf? The game only mentions Link putting forth that effort. No one else was brave, strong, or even had the ability to content specific to the game.


I will wait to post my conclusion in the last round, and sum up this debate and why I feel I have won.

Passing this back to my opponent.
Debate Round No. 4
FrackJack

Pro

I have stuff going on my life. I cant find the time for this debate.

I concede.
TUF

Con

I thank my opponent for what was a fun debate. Vote con!
Debate Round No. 5
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Beginner 4 years ago
Beginner
"He had a will, he had a way"
Sounds like something you'd say about illegal substance abusers..
Posted by LinkDaBoss 4 years ago
LinkDaBoss
Pardon me if this has been mentioned already... but while I always believed the Master Sword was required to beat Ganondorf, I began to question that when I played one game that I can't fully explain to this day: Four Swords Adventures. For all those that played, you know that you destroyed Vaati, but then Ganon appeared and he was sealed in the Four Sword. This is the only game where the Master Sword was not used against him... so what does it mean?
Posted by Gaurdian_Rock 4 years ago
Gaurdian_Rock
Wow, this debate has made me play through the whole game on the game cube again.xD
Posted by TUF 4 years ago
TUF
The videos Aren't that important, but here they are. One is showing how the master sword is important in defeating ganondorf, and the other is a source for the song of time required to achieve the Tri-Force.

http://www.youtube.com...

http://www.youtube.com...
Posted by FrackJack 4 years ago
FrackJack
TUF, can you post the links to your videos? I cant see them.
Posted by TUF 4 years ago
TUF
Umm what? Whaaaat?
Posted by FrackJack 4 years ago
FrackJack
lol V This
Posted by TUF 4 years ago
TUF
Deku how come you didn't say anything?
Posted by TUF 4 years ago
TUF
Deku how come you didn't say anything?
Posted by DoctorDeku 4 years ago
DoctorDeku
Really. Really? You didn't let me take this debate?
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by MisterDeku 4 years ago
MisterDeku
FrackJackTUFTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: It's not often I get to vote a straight seven, but here we go. Conduct and Arguments for the forfeit, grammar as some of Pro's round was difficult to understand at times. And sources for the analysis going on throughout the round. Good debate!
Vote Placed by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
FrackJackTUFTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Concession... Otherwise my limited understanding of the games would have left arguments tied, but conduct (for waiting a couple days when requested) and sources in con's favor.
Vote Placed by Raisor 4 years ago
Raisor
FrackJackTUFTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I wish I had realized this debate was conceded before reading all the way through...