The Instigator
truther1111
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Mikal
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

Near Death Experience ( real )

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Mikal
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/31/2013 Category: Science
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,220 times Debate No: 36187
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (2)

 

truther1111

Pro

I would like to propose that Near death experiences occur outside of the brain and are real
Mikal

Con

Accept

Remember my adversary is claiming that these are real and has taken on the BOP. He must show that they are real and I must undermine his argument. I will also build my own case.
Debate Round No. 1
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 2
truther1111

Pro

NDEs must be real because there has been information Verified from NDE experiences therefore suggesting that consciousness can exist outside of the brain.
Mikal

Con

Saying something is true because there is information to support it is illogical. Anyone can claim to have evidence for something, but you did not even show the source to prove it. There are so many different things that have tests and experiments ran on them to show they are true, but there is always someone working on a counter hypothesis as well.

Take evolution for example. There are hundreds of tests and variables that go into to help show that it is a fact. There is no way to say for certain because we were not there to witness, but we can draw a logical conclusion by all the evidence that is supporting it. So even if you were to make the claim that an NDE is supported by evidence, there would more than likely be a study that refutes it also showing it is false. To even approach it from this angle you would have to offer some source are argument. Stating it is true just because you believe so is not a debate. It is merely asserting your personal opinion.

Since you did not offer a point to refute I will simply offer one and explain in very briefly.

The scientific explanation for an NDE is that when the brains huts down your chemicals will act differently. Blood will slow down, and oxygen levels will drop as your party is starting to die off. The body will then sometimes sent a jolt trying to prevent this which interferes with your nervous system allowing you to see memories or things that are not really there.
That is an extremely short version, and I do mean extremely short. I was going to offer up evidence with neurological science to support it, but I will hold that off until you present evidence to support your theory. It would be useless to write an entire paragraph siting sources, if you do not offer up points as well. So this one point will suffice for the time

In closing I have shown that my adversary has literally offered no evidence to support his claim and has just offered a theory based on personal opinion. I have shown how an NDE can happen as your body starts to die. In the end it is evidence vs opinion. Thank you

http://www.npr.org...
http://scitechdaily.com...
Debate Round No. 3
truther1111

Pro

Yes i have read the neurological 'evidence' which are really just a bunch of theories of what may cause a near death experience , or explanations for a near death experience showing that the brain may be able to produce some of the affects of an NDE by physiological means but not at all are they as vivid or complete as a real NDE.
because chemistry causes hallucination doesnt explain NDE otherwise why would people all experience the same hallucination. Lack of oxygen theories as well you would expect all people that have suffered lack of oxygen to their brain to experience NDE if the medical theory is correct however we dont see that.
So when someone has a NDE and they have a lack of oxygen in their brain scientists say it was a hallucination caused by lack of oxygen, when someone has a NDE that wasnt caused by lack of Oxygen then the scientists will have to use another excuse or theory to explain an NDE , there are at least 20 theories on why scientists believe NDE are caused by scientific reasons but there are so many explanations because at the end of the day they dont know exactly what causes and NDE or how to explain it scientifically .
Mikal

Con

This is my adversaries claims, and I will offer rebuttals.

(1) All NDES are not caused by lack of oxygen.

I agree, and I was not meaning to say that this is the only cause. I was showing how it could occur as your body starts to shut down at death. This is not a subjective view, when you start to die your bodies chemical levels drop which can cause hallucinations. There are a multitude of facts that could cause this to happen, and lack of oxygen is just one. As I showed with my prior sources, NDES occurs when they body is in extreme pain or harm 95 percent of the time. Anything that could invoke chemical fluctuations or produce an extreme lack of oxygen could invoke an NDE.

(2) NDES occur all the time and all of the world so it must be true.

This is illogical, and makes no sense to offer as credit. If we looked at this as true, anything that schizophrenic people are seeing would be deemed as reality. Just because people claim to see something does not make it true, there has to be evidence to support it.

In closing

My adversary has still offered no facts to support his theory. He has just offered evidence out of personal opinion with no backbone to it. Until he is able to present a case to support that the occurrences are real, I think the most logical conclusion is to assume they are caused by our bodies shutting down. Thank you
Debate Round No. 4
truther1111

Pro

I guess its like what came first the chicken or the egg, one would expect the brain to have changes in brain chemistry when under a lot of stress or trauma. Just because our brains are made out of chemicals does not mean we are not conscious beings,what did you expect to find inside the brain some sort of magic .

The important points are that
NDE are more Real than 'Real' a hallucination so vivid and real it seems more real than normal experience wouldnt be produced by a brain that is dying or damaged in such a way.
NDEs are different than 'hallucinations' caused by drugs , lack of oxygen etc.
All dying brains would experience hallucinations if it were a simple chemical process
Why would our brain hallucinate spiritual experiences.
Some NDE had higher levels of oxygen than normal but experience an NDE.

Sam Parnia
http://www.naiverealismandawakening.com...

'It has been suggested that the experiences are hallucinations, the result of disturbed brain chemistry caused by medication, lack of oxygen or changes in carbon dioxide levels.
But Dr Parnia said there was no difference in oxygen levels or drug treatment between the heart attack survivors who had not had NDEs and those who had.
"In fact, the four patients who met the criteria for a true NDE actually had higher oxygen levels," he added.
He said the recollections were not like hallucinations because they were "highly structured, narrative, easily recalled and clear".
He added: "During cardiac arrest, brainstem activity is rapidly lost. It should not be possible to sustain such lucid processes or allow the formation of lasting memories.

In closing
We can only debate about something we both really cant explain .
Mikal

Con

My adversary offered the following points.

(1) Because we are made out of chemicals, does not mean we do not have a conscious.

I agree somewhat if we define what it conscious is. While this is not a philosophical debate, it is entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Consciousness would have nothing to do with an NDE. Most of the NDES people claim to have, are experiences of an out of body sort. Where their soul leaves their body, and they get to see the afterlife or any other vivid thing within their brain. A conscious and a soul are two entirely different things. A "soul" is a trade mark placed on us by religion. There is no way to even verify we have a soul. Conscious is a mix of chemicals and morality all all in one. So if you wanted to say that just because we are made of chemicals does not mean we have a soul, this would still be a gaps argument. There is no way to even verify what we think of as a soul exists. It is just an assumption brought abut by religion.

http://plato.stanford.edu...


(2) If NDES were brought about by death of the brain, everyone would have them. Also patients with high levels of oxygen have experienced this.

Everyone who died would not experience them. If you notice mos people who have them see what they want to see in a way. I would wager almost 90 percent of NDES as we define them are experienced by religious people or people who believe in faith. Possibly even some people who are battling with faith. When the brain starts to shut down and malfunctions, religious people will often see God or angels coming for them. They will say they saw a light at the end of the tunnel. Muslims whom experience these things, claim to see Allah or paradise. I am asserting that due to what is within our conscious and the knowledge that we have, an NDE could be invoked. If look further into this people who have no religious affiliation often have weird images when they are about to pass as well. Me being engaged to and spending time with a nurse experience this quite often. Some of the elderly people were my fiance work, when they are about to pass will see all kinds of things. Some will complain about cars driving on the wall, and other will say they see angels. If you just use common logic, it will tell you that it is your brain slowly dying because your body is decaying, producing these images. As my previous source from the prior round has shown, this is verified by multiple tests and experiments. As far as people with high oxygen levels having these experiences, it is irrelevant. i addressed this earlier. It is not specific to one cause. Anything that causes trauma to the body or harm, possibly even shock can result in vivid images being seen.

http://www.healthline.com...


In closing

My adversary has shown nothing to support his theory or resolve his claim. He states that NDES are actually out of body experiences that are experienced by people. While people hallucinating may be a fact, the actual experience of the NDE is not. I have shown this through multiple sites and presented numerous facts to support it. He has debated from mere opinion, while I have shown facts to support my claims. This is a Gap argument, similar to what we see in religion. Because something can not be fully defined because of personal experience, we fill it in with an answer that we like. While this is comforting, it is not accurate.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
Depends on where I OBE to.
I watched myself grow old in one OBE, while I floated above my bed, but I realized it was only a hallucination as when looking from above, my clock radio appeared on the wrong side of the bedhead.
Sometimes I'm outside, viewing something that was making a noise like people talking next door or a car coming up the street. Suddenly I'm projected outside, with the people talking or watching the car go by wherever I'm staying.
Though I know it is all just a hallucination, often I look back and things are not right, I've got my old car or the number on the unit is wrong. It's little things that give it away.
Though I can often remember everything that my neighbor said as I sometimes ask them, but that part is not a hallucination, because, often our hearing is fully functional while we are in a deep sleep or hallucination.
Such as what happens to those NDE patients who can recall what the surgeons and nursing staff say during their operation. Fact is, their hearing is still functioning and they hallucinate about being able to view themselves being operated on, when it is really just their hearing is triggering illusions of the procedure. If asked which hand the nurse is holding the calipers or other such simple observational information, they could not really tell.
Hearing can conjure up Illusions, just like my Car going past, dog barking or neighbor talking OBEs.
I feel as if I am there watching her talk, but I cannot picture who she is talking to properly, sometimes I picture her blonde friend there, when she was actually talking on her telephone.
It's is my brain creating a Theater Production, with images generated by the things I overhear.
Which is what happens in many Surgery NDEs as previously explained.
Posted by truther1111 3 years ago
truther1111
when you have an obe can you see stuff going on around you ?
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
Hmm, shared Illusions.
They didn't see the visions, but they saw the actions, still doesn't make it real.
Get some instruments in there and let's actually see what happened during that Hallucination.
I can get an Out-Of-Body experience whenever I like.
It started off with drinking cough mixture, but now I can conjure it up with my own form of meditation.
Sam Parnia has been trying to prove Near Death Experiences are real using scientific means.
Many patients later, still no evidence.
Maybe that NDE, really was a NDH, near death hallucination.
Almost all (if not absolutely All) of them Are!
Posted by sweetbreeze 4 years ago
sweetbreeze
*all the others
Posted by sweetbreeze 4 years ago
sweetbreeze
"Near Death Experience (real)" Correct. I've actually seen it happen with my own eyes. You might say that it's an illusion and you don't trust my own eyes, but all they others in that room at that time knew about it too and they believed it.
Posted by Mikal 4 years ago
Mikal
i was wondering why it skipped too
Posted by johnlubba 4 years ago
johnlubba
How did you manage to skip round two, I can not see any content for that round.?
Posted by johnlubba 4 years ago
johnlubba
If this is still here in a while I will take this, but if you could drop it to four or maybe three rounds, I'd appreciate that.
Posted by Passionate 4 years ago
Passionate
Death is real so will the Experience....
Posted by sweetbreeze 4 years ago
sweetbreeze
Whatica?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by InVinoVeritas 4 years ago
InVinoVeritas
truther1111MikalTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro simply failed to support the resolution, and ultimately stated that neither of the debaters can explain the phenomenon (which was a concession, really, since his goal was to support a specific explanation for the phenomenon.) Also, Con had significantly better structure and organization, which gives him S&G.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
truther1111MikalTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro waited until the final round to make a real case, and support it with any sources. This should have been a source heavy debate from him, as he needed to prove something that is standardly doubted. Whereas con did provide many sources, and made an argument against pro (even predicting pros ahead of time) which was vastly stronger.