The Instigator
PowerPikachu21
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
RainbowDash52
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

New Smash Bros Fighters

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/22/2016 Category: Society
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 634 times Debate No: 96210
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (21)
Votes (0)

 

PowerPikachu21

Pro

Can we finally get it this time? Please? Hello. This is PowerPikachu21, and I want to know what video game characters should be in Super Smash Bros.

I prohibit any bull*** on these types of things, and want a serious debate. If you do choose to try to get some stupid thing on my debate, you'll be denied access to accepting any future debates of mine. You must select a character which came from a video game. You can NOT choose something or someone from a TV Show, Movie, Comic, Brand, Real Life, Fanfiction, YouTube, or any variations of the kind. And if you choose an object from a video game, get out. Only characters from video games. Not following the rules counts as being eliminated.

You must create a perfect move set for your chosen video game character. That means: Jab, Side/Forward Tilt, Down Tilt, Up Tilt, Up Smash, Side/Forward Smash, Down Smash, Dash Attack, Grab, Up Throw, Forward Throw, Back Throw, Down Throw, Pummel when grabbing the opponent, Neutral Special, Side Special, Down Special, Up Special, Neutral Air, Forward Air, Back Air, Down Air, Up Air, and Final Smash. If you're missing one of these, I WILL call you out, and if you don't get it right the next round, you will be eliminated.

Oh! And no characters that are in an Official Super Smash Brothers game, whether from Super Smash Brothers 64, Super Smash Brothers Melee, Super Smash Brothers Brawl, Super Smash Brothers 3DS, Super Smash Bros 3DS's DLC, Super Smash Brothers Wii U, or Super Smash Brothers Wii U's DLC. Doing so makes you eliminated.

Do not think about running out of time. If you do run away from this debate, and fail to post, you get eliminated as soon as the timer reached 0 Days, 0 Hours, 0 Minutes, 0 Seconds.

Are we clear? Can we eliminate all trolls on the premises? ("eliminated" means you lose.)

I choose Phoenix Wright from the Ace Attorney series by CapCom, a well known company. You must have at least 1 debate cleared to accept this debate. If you have any questions regarding this debate, contact me in the comment section of this debate.

(If you are wondering why I'm being very specific about the rules, and why everything's in paragraphs, that's how fed up I am with these users)
RainbowDash52

Con

I choose Shovel Knight as a new Smash Brothers character.


Moveset

Jab: shovel hit

-Fast but short range

Side/Forward Tilt: shovel slash

-Wider range than shovel hit, but slower

Down Tilt: shovel

-Like shovel hit but lower

Up Tilt: shovel up-stab

-Quick but only hits directly above

Up Smash: shovel up-slash

-Waves shovel overhead, wider range than up-stab

Side/Forward Smash: charge shovel

-Slashes shovel with large range

Down Smash: shovel spark

-Like the down tilt, but i creates a spark on the ground that travels forward (like from the game)

Dash Attack: double dust knuckles

-Uses the dust knuckles punch two times in a row. Each punch moves him forward(like from the game)


Grab: standard grab

Up Throw: throws upward

Forward Throw: throws forward

Back Throw: throws backward

Down Throw: shovels into ground

Pummel when grabbing the opponent: hit with shovel

Neutral Special: chaos sphere

-Throws a chaos sphere forward, and it bounces 3 times then disappears on the fourth bounce (like from the game)


Side Special: propeller dagger

-Launches himself forward while attacking with his propeller dagger. (like from the game)


Down Special: fishing rod

-Drops a fishing rod downwards damaging enemies.(like from the game)


Up Special: throwing anchor

-Throws an anchor upwards, that travels in an arch shape (like from the game)


Neutral Air: shovel hit

Forward Air: shovel slash

Back Air: back shovel hit

Down Air: shovel drop

-points shovel downwards to attack while descending (like from the game)

Up Air: shovel up-stab

Final Smash, Troupple King dance

-The Troupple King appears in the background, to perform his dance. The fishes that dance along with him attack the enemies.


Why Shovel Knight?

1. Shovel Knight won game of the year in 2014, which demonstrates his popularity. http://www.polygon.com...

2. Shovel Knight's attacks from the game translates well into Smash Bros

3. Shovel Knight was the first indie game character to receive his own Nintendo Amiibo, which indicates Shovel Knight would be a great first indie character to join Smash Bro's. http://www.businesswire.com...



Debate Round No. 1
PowerPikachu21

Pro

Alright. I see my opponent chooses Shovel Knight, and I agree he's a good candidate. But not as good as Phoenix Wright.

With that, here's Phoenix Wright's move set.

Basics and Throws:

Jab: 2 punches into a point. First hit does 2%, second hit does 3%, and the 3rd hit does 4%: a total of 9%.

Dash Attack: Phoenix Wright trips and falls over. Strength varies on when opponent is hit. At the start, it's the most powerful, doing 7%, and good knockback. However, Phoenix Wright must get back up, which takes a while. This attack is punishable.

Grab: Phoenix Wright uses the Magatama to grab the opponent (close range), and says "Hold It".

Pummel: After grabbing the opponent, the Magatama can damage the opponent with 2% damage per 1 second if you press attack while grabbing.

Forward Throw: Phoenix Wright points forward, throwing the enemy pretty far. Does 6% damage.

Back Throw: Phoenix Wright turns around and points that way, with 5% damage and less knockback than Forward Throw.

Down Throw: Phoenix Wright slams the opponent into the ground, doing 3% damage, and can combo into a Forward Air.

Up Throw: He points upward, and the throw does 5% damage, and goes almost as far as F-Throw.

Tilts and Smash Attacks:

Forward Tilt: Phoenix Wright throws papers like in UMvC3. It hits 3 times in rapid succession, with the final hit launching a fair distance. It does a total of 7%.

Forward Smash: Phoenix points while shouting "Take That!" Fully charged, it does 21%, and great knockback.

Up Tilt: Phoenix does a headbutt, which can combo into an Up Air. The attack itself does 8% damage.

Up Smash: An upward point. Great knockback, and does 19% at max charge.

Down Tilt: Phoenix dusts off the floor, like in UMvC3. Can combo into F-Air, and does 5%.

Down Smash: Phoenix Wright desk slams. It bounces the enemy off the floor, sending them almost directly upwards. Knockback is good, and does 23% at max charge. The move is punishable, though.

Air Attacks:

Neutral Air: Phoenix Wright does his "Illumination" attack from UMvC3. Not much knockback, but can combo into F-Air. Does 4%.

Forward Air: Phoenix points forward, doing 7% and fair knockback.

Down Air: Phoenix Wright sneezes (like in UMvC3), and does 7% damage. If it hits around Phoenix Wright's legs, it has a meteor smash effect (the opponent gets send downwards really fast. Speed varies with damage %).

Back Air: A weaker point backwards, doing 5%, and less knockback than F-Air.

Up Air: A headbutt that does 6%, and fair knockback.

Special Attacks:

Neutral B: Objection; This attack has 5 stages, and the amount of "objection points" Phoenix Wright has determines the stage level. At 0 to 9 pts, stage 1, it's fairly weak, doing 7%. Stage 2, 10 to 19 pts, 9%. At stage 5, 50 pts, it does 30% damage, and incredible knockback! Phoenix Wright gains 1 point every 3 seconds, taking 150 seconds (2 minutes 30 seconds) to reach stage 5 Objection.

Down B: Investigation; This is what you'll mainly use as Phoenix Wright. He takes 3 seconds to find evidence. Each evidence collected adds 5 pts for Objection. While searching for evidence, Phoenix Wright is vulernable to all attacks. Down B can't be cancelled either, so do it when you know your safe.

Side B: Logic Blast; This is a slower version of Din's Fire. Holding down B makes the blast go farther. It does 13% damage, regardless of where it is, though. It automatically goes off after 3 seconds. It can be reflected and absorbed. And it does less damage if you do another Logic Blast within 7 seconds after the previous use, doing a minimum of 2% damage. The default knockback is alright. (This is a reference to the "Logic" feature in Ace Attorney Investigations.)

Up B: Magatama Warp; Phoenix Wright teleports the same distance of Mewtwo, except after reappearing, he doesn't keep his momentum. It doesn't do any damage, and is soley for getting back on the stage. (This is an original move. Phoenix Wright doesn't really have much else to work with Up Special-wise.)

Final Smash:

Psyche Lock: 5 Psyche locks appear on the stage. Each one explodes after 2 seconds. The first 4 do 10%, and great knockback. The 5th does 20%, and amazing knockback.

Why Phoenix Wright?

Phoenix Wright is known by many. He's been in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3, and his attacks there could come into Smash Bros. For those who don't have UMvC3, with Phoenix Wright in Smash, he can still beat people up by shouting at them. Plus, he has his own gimmick for Smash Bros; collecting evidence when possible, and hitting the opponent with an Objection!

As for all the pointing in the move set... that's Phoenix Wright's thing.

Okay. That's the entire move set for Phoenix Wright. But I have a few concerns regarding my opponent's case.

Cross Examination:

"Neutral Special: chaos sphere

-Throws a chaos sphere forward, and it bounces 3 times then disappears on the fourth bounce (like from the game)"

I would like you to be a bit more specific. I'm probably going to get some hate, but I never played Shovel Knight. How much damage would Chaos Sphere do? Is it fast or slow?

"
Down Special: fishing rod

-Drops a fishing rod downwards damaging enemies.(like from the game)"

I don't think that's a very good Down Special. He just... drops the rod? Come on. This doesn't even seem like a very good attack! (Then again, I haven't played Shovel Knight)

"
Up Special: throwing anchor

-Throws an anchor upwards, that travels in an arch shape (like from the game)"

I know how you feel. Making Smash Bros move sets can be tough. Is an anchor a good recovery move (Then again...!)? How far does it go? How fast is it?

Other than those questions I have, your move set is alright. It could be more specific, since not everyone (Me!) has played Shovel Knight.

RainbowDash52

Con

Counter argument

With the Objection attack, when do the objection points reset? Do they reset after using the attack? Do they reset after Phoenix Wright dies? If they reset after using the attack, then it is similar to Wario"s waft attack, which takes only 1 minute 49 seconds to fully charge. [1] So the only unique part of this attack is that there is a second attack which all it does is charges it faster.

Several attacks seem underwhelming, like sneezing, pointing, and dusting off floor. But maybe that is just because I haven"t played any of the Ace Attorney games.

Clarifying Shovel Knight"s special attacks
Chaos Sphere:
This attack has moderate speed but low power.

Fishing rod,
The rod is a heavy anchor, and it drops until it hits a platform, and would do strong damage, and has decent speed. If used in the air it would cancel horizontal momentum, but he would still fall. This attack when used in the air would have longer starting lag than on the ground to balance out the increased range it would have. (although in the game he can"t use the fishing rod in the air, a special attack that couldn"t be used in the air would suck)

Anchor throw,
Although not a good recovery option, his side special, propeller dagger, would give good horizontal recovery.
This attack would be similar to yoshi"s egg throw attack, but slower, stronger, and follows the same trajectory each time

Propeller dagger
When used in the air, it does not prevent the user from using other attacks afterwards, so the user can even use propeller dagger multiple times when trying to recover. So Shovel Knight would have really good horizontal recovery with this attack but bad vertical recovery, which makes him unique.

Additional points
Phoenix Wright is a Capcom character, and Smash Bros already has 2 Capcom characters, Mega Man and Ryu. [2] Shovel Knight, on the other hand would be the first indie character in Smash Bros. The most likely reason why Shovel Knight was not already added as a Smash Bros character was because at the time Smash Bros DLC characters were being added, Shovel Knight was not yet released in Japan, so it wouldn"t appeal to the Japanese audience. But Shovel Knight is now available in Japan as of July 2016 [3], so there is no longer any reason not to add Shovel Knight to Smash Bros.

Sources
[1] http://supersmashbros.wikia.com...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[3] http://yachtclubgames.com...
Debate Round No. 2
PowerPikachu21

Pro

I thank my opponent for continuing. Let's get right into this!

Defense:

"With the Objection attack, when do the objection points reset? Do they reset after using the attack? Do they reset after Phoenix Wright dies?"

Good eye. The Objection Points reset after he uses Objection or after he dies. The attack doesn't charge faster after using it.

"Several attacks seem underwhelming, like sneezing, pointing, and dusting off floor. But maybe that is just because I haven"t played any of the Ace Attorney games."

Well, no need to play Ace Attorney for this move set! Phoenix Wright doesn't do combat in Ace Attorney. But he does point, investigate, and objection, which is in UMvC3. Also, Wii Fit Trainer's move set is underwhelming, since it's just various yoga poses. Villager also doesn't normally do combat, and he's in Smash 4, though his move set consists of umbrella, sticks, bowling balls, boxing gloves... the list goes on.

Rebuttal:

"Chaos Sphere:
This attack has moderate speed but low power."

Okay.

"Fishing rod,
The rod is a heavy anchor, and it drops until it hits a platform, and would do strong damage, and has decent speed. If used in the air it would cancel horizontal momentum, but he would still fall. This attack when used in the air would have longer starting lag than on the ground to balance out the increased range it would have. (although in the game he can"t use the fishing rod in the air, a special attack that couldn"t be used in the air would suck)"

Does he cast the fishing rod, or does he literally drop it? I think you mean casting the rod (like he flicks the rod, making the hook launch. It's a fishing term). I'm still not sure about this move, though.

"Anchor throw,
Although not a good recovery option, his side special, propeller dagger, would give good horizontal recovery.
This attack would be similar to yoshi"s egg throw attack, but slower, stronger, and follows the same trajectory each time"

Sounds like something from Smash Bros: Project Crusade. Again, this doesn't seem like a good move.

"Propeller dagger
When used in the air, it does not prevent the user from using other attacks afterwards, so the user can even use propeller dagger multiple times when trying to recover. So Shovel Knight would have really good horizontal recovery with this attack but bad vertical recovery, which makes him unique."

Not exactly. Donkey Kong has bad vertical recovery. Yoshi's recovery is mainly dependant on his jump. Little Mac has awful recovery period. And you aren't even saying how much damage Propeller Dagger does.

Additional Points:

"Phoenix Wright is a Capcom character, and Smash Bros already has 2 Capcom characters, Mega Man and Ryu."

Eh. 1 more couldn't hurt. And besides, who said there should be a limit for total Smash characters per company?

"Shovel Knight, on the other hand would be the first indie character in Smash Bros. The most likely reason why Shovel Knight was not already added as a Smash Bros character was because at the time Smash Bros DLC characters were being added, Shovel Knight was not yet released in Japan, so it wouldn"t appeal to the Japanese audience."

I suppose that is a problem with Indie characters. Most indie games are exclusive to PC, and not consoles, which is problematic for Japanese gamers.

However, Phoenix Wright is made by a japanese company, CapCom. It would appeal more to these audiences to see their favorite defense attorney in Smash Bros. Shovel Knight is now released in Japan, sure. But Phoenix Wright has been around longer, and has many sequels, and currently 2 games that were released only in Japan.

Conclusion:

Phoenix Wright was in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3, which we could use some attacks from there to put in Smash Bros. He could have a special gimmick where he investigates for evidence, which makes his neutral special more powerful. Shovel Knight, while a popular indie character, doesn't have too much to work with. I still think Phoenix Wright would be more interesting to see in Super Smash Bros. So what do you think?
RainbowDash52

Con

Fishing rod
He casts it. I guess that is the more accurate term, but he casts it straight down.

Propeller dagger
Yes, the recovery would be a little similar to DK as in bad vertical recovery but good horizontal recovery, but it would be more exaggerated with Shovel Knight, since he would get no additional vertical recovery, but better horizontal recovery because he could use it multiple times in the air unlike DK"s recovery move. Also it would probably be medium-weak power to balance out how the attack isn"t very punishable.

The "Phoenix Wright has been around longer" argument isn"t really good since Greninja was added to Smash Bros about a year after Greninja appeared in his first games, Pokemon X and Y. Being around longer doesn"t make it a better candidate since Smash Bros uses both old and new characters.

I don"t think there is anything more to add that wasn"t already said.
Debate Round No. 3
PowerPikachu21

Pro

I thank RainbowDash52 for doing this debate. With that, it's time for my final Cross Examination.

Rebuttal:

"Fishing rod
He casts it. I guess that is the more accurate term, but he casts it straight down."

That attack sounds bad. The only way it would hit if ifyou're in mid-air. But I guess it does make a decent edge guard, assuming it doesn't cast infinitely, KOing Shovel Knight if used off-stage.

"Propeller dagger
Yes, the recovery would be a little similar to DK as in bad vertical recovery but good horizontal recovery, but it would be more exaggerated with Shovel Knight, since he would get no additional vertical recovery, but better horizontal recovery because he could use it multiple times in the air unlike DK"s recovery move. Also it would probably be medium-weak power to balance out how the attack isn"t very punishable."

Eh... Smash Bros doesn't really have spammable moves like this. Fox anf Falco's blasters stop movement. Link's arrows are chargable, and have ending lag. Pretty much any projectile or charging melee attack is punishable. They would not include a character with a spammable attack, since it's cheap, no matter how low percent it does.

[And if you say "low power", that means little. Smash isn't a traditional fighting game. Instead of lowering the opponent's HP to 0, you damage them enough to launch them off the screen. When you post for Round 4, type what percent and launching power all the attacks would do.]

Defense:

"The "Phoenix Wright has been around longer" argument isn"t really good since Greninja was added to Smash Bros about a year after Greninja appeared in his first games, Pokemon X and Y. Being around longer doesn"t make it a better candidate since Smash Bros uses both old and new characters."

Well... true. Date of release isn't really something to take acount for. Instead, we need to find potential and see if they're worth being in Smash Bros.

Even though the Ace Attorney series doesn't involve fighting, we can still find some things to work with, such as Logic Blast being a reference to Ace Attorney Investigations. His move set is pretty unique in terms of origins, mainly from UMvC3. He makes a great character because his gimmick involves collecting evidence whenever safe, and then unleashing a level 5 Objection. His final smash is prudicing Psyche Locks, which explode, doing great damage and launching power. Especially the final Psyche Lock!

Shovel Knight is a popular indie character. His move set involves a lot of smacking people with his shovel... yeah. That sounds a bit dull to me. He's also got a variety of weapons/tools, like throwing an anchor for his recovery. His final smash is dancing fish. Maybe he should go to Project: Crusade.

Conclusion:

I feel like Shovel Knight is an alright candidate, but his move set is dull. Similar could be said with Phoenix Wright though, with all the pointing. But Wright has a good reason to be in Smash Bros, and has a special gimmick. Shovel Knight doesn't bring anything interesting, except being Indie.

So what do you say, RainbowDash? Is Phoenix Wright 20% cooler than Shovel Knight? (I had to. Sorry.)
RainbowDash52

Con

Fishing Rod Defense

Villager"s attack where he drops a bowling ball hits people fine, so I don"t see why Shovel Knight Fishing rod would have problems hitting characters. It wouldn"t cast infinitely when used off stage, it would end when it goes off screen, although by that time he may have lost enough height to not be able to recover, but many characters have down B attacks that can kill themselves when used off stage.

Propeller dagger

As for my opponents concerns that this attack would be too spammable, it is unnecessary and in fact unrealistic to find the perfect balance between powerful and fair in the design/speculation stage. Character"s movesets get tweaked during during playtesting for balance, and sometimes even after release they get patches to further balance them. So arguing that one attack might be too spammable isn"t enough reason to dismiss a character"s moveset.

Counter defense

My opponent claims what makes Phoenix Wright unique is that he "searches for evidence", but an attack which all it does is charge another attack is not a very good gimmick.

Conclusion

Shovel Knight has unique attacks and is proven to be a popular character and would make a good smash Character.

Sources Conclusion

I used sources to support why Shovel Knight is popular enough to be in Smash Bros, while my opponent didn"t use any sources at all.
Debate Round No. 4
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Conceptua 6 months ago
Conceptua
I'll vote tomorrow.
Posted by PowerPikachu21 6 months ago
PowerPikachu21
Well, vote whichever you think had the better case.
Posted by Conceptua 6 months ago
Conceptua
I know I said I thought Pro won earlier but now I'm not sure after a second skim.
Posted by Conceptua 6 months ago
Conceptua
But nobody has any arguments that allow me to evaluate the importance of the different aspects of the debate so I'm left in the dark on how to actually vote. What should I be looking for? How good the move sets are or how detailed they are, which is more important? Con has an argument at the end about how they can be tuned and play tested in real life which gives me a reason to doubt that the specifics of the move sets are very important. After that, all that's left of the move sets is the creativity of the move sets which is extremely subjective and neither debater said anything on the subject, they only argued and questioned specifics of some of the moves which doesn't help me very much.

Both you and your opponent should have done better giving concrete reasons to vote either way. I can see the argument that Phoenix Wright wasn't a combat character which is why many of his attacks are wierd and out of place and therefore not as good as the shovel guy. It would have been effective but I don't see that argument nor any others of the kind.
Posted by PowerPikachu21 6 months ago
PowerPikachu21
Vote based on which move set you like the most, as well as which one has the better reason for choosing that character. None of the debate is irrelevant.
Posted by Conceptua 6 months ago
Conceptua
I think Pro won on both but I need an RFD.
Posted by Conceptua 6 months ago
Conceptua
I can't figure out who I am supposed to vote. Should I vote the one that did the best job proving that their character should be in the game or who made the best moveset? Both options make a large portion of he debate irrelevant. I can't factor in both because there is no criteria for how important each aspect is comparatively.
Posted by Conceptua 6 months ago
Conceptua
What was this debate even about?
Posted by PowerPikachu21 7 months ago
PowerPikachu21
I'm posting this from my school. When I get back home, I'll give my argument.
Posted by PowerPikachu21 7 months ago
PowerPikachu21
Alright, because tomorrow is all you have left. (Also, arguments Round 1 is optional)
No votes have been placed for this debate.