The Instigator
radz
Pro (for)
Losing
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The Contender
macspider
Con (against)
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4 Points

Nicene Creed: Jesus is equal to God in nature

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macspider
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/14/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 986 times Debate No: 38903
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radz

Pro

Let us have a sound debate! :)

The Sophiology Backround of Nicean Christology

The Nicene Creed stems from the ancient faith preserved by the bishops from since the departure of the Apostles. The Sophiology backround of the said Creed will be presented at this debate:

The Old Testament Wisdom Theology

YHWH is deemed to be all-wise. Throughout the Old Testament age, he always acts wisely. His wiseness no one could comprehend. YHWH’s Wisdom ( Greek: Sophia) is personified as his eternally begotten offspring:

Premise 1: Begetter: The eternal Lord – Proverbs 8:22 LXX

Premise 2: Begotten: The eternal Wisdom –Proverbs 8:25 LXX

Conclusion: The eternal Lord eternally begets Wisdom.

God begets Wisdom even before the Genesis creation: “The Lord created me, the first of his ways for his way” (Proverbs 8:22 LXX) “Before the hills, he begets me” (Proverbs 8:25 LXX)

Begetting denotes “creation within one’s nature”. This is akin to the scientific law of Gregor Mendel’s Genetics (like begets like). In Latin, this is called “creation ad intra” ( creation from within). Wisdom is equal to God in nature because he came from God’s very being. On the other hand, creation ad extra or creation from outside one’s nature is the one referred to in the Genesis account of creation (e.g. God created Adam out of dust. God and Adam are not equal in nature).

The Personified Wisdom played a great part in Jewish Theology because Israel is a monotheistic faith who detests polytheistic neighboring countries. God alone is worshiped and he is only one. His Wisdom is not other than him but of him that is why he can be praised through his Wisdom.

Although this is a literary form of expressing a divine truth, we nevertheless can conclude that systematically, God has three offspring in the Old Testament:

1) Angels (Job 38:4-7)

2) Israel ( Exodus 4:22)

3) Wisdom ( Proverbs 8:22-31)

Inter-testamental Jewish Theology

The Jews preserved the teaching of Wisdom theology as found in their Scriptures ( i.e. the Septuagint) and they had two great religious literary contributions about their age-old Wisdom theology:

1)Wisdom of Solomon

2) Book of Sirach

Philo of Alexandria who is a contemporary of the Apostles identifies Wisdom as Logos. He calls Logos as the “first born” of God and as the” image “of God. Although his stance on the Logos is as un-begotten, he deemed it as God’s first born one which denotes, together with its being God’s image, divine revelation and action.

New Testament Wisdom Theology

The writers of the New Testament Scriptures also understood Wisdom / Logos as “firstborn” and “Image” of God but unlike Philo, the disciples follow after the Old Testament Scriptures regarding the begottenness of God’s Wisdom/ Logos ( Colossians 1:13-17).

The disciples did not only follow the ancient Judaic concept of God’s wisdom but they also went further as to consider Wisdom as a real person than a mere personification. They identify Wisdom/ Logos to be Christ Jesus himself ( Hebrews 1:3).

1 Corinthians 1:24 Christ, the Power and Wisdom of God ( Sophia theou)

Jesus Christ himself was the one who taught this based on his very words:

John 3:16,18 He claims to be the ‘only begotten Son’ sent into the world by the Father

John 5:18 He claims equality in nature with 'God' because he calls him his own 'Father'.

John 5:19 He claims impeccability and omnipotence by saying " whatever the Father does the Son also does in the same manner".

John 5:23 He claims equality with the Father in honor. Jesus believes that he and the Father are co-equal in honor.

John 5:26 He claims equality with the Father in the sort of life ( eternality- existence without beginning or end).

John 8:58 He claims existence before Abraham's own existence.

John 10:28-38 He claims equality with the Father in the trait of impeccability and omnipotence: (1) None of Jesus' sheep (i.e. the saints) will be apostatized and (2) He is the one who will give them eternal life (both divine trait in same verse, Deuteronomy 32:39 LXX).

John 17:5 He claims to HAVE glory 'with' the Father before the world was.

By putting all of these into coherency, his beloved disciple John came up with his "Prologue":

John 1:1-4 ( Ps. 32:6 LXX) The Word existed with 'God' and has the “nature” of this God before creation all things through him. In him was life.

John 1:14 ( Ps. 45:1 LXX, Prov. 8:22-30) The Word has the glory of being the only begotten one with the 'Father'.

John 1:18( Ps. 110:3 LXX) The only begotten Word ( God in nature- monogenes theos*) or Son ( monogenes huios*) is within the bosom of the Father. * either reading supports the teaching of the Word's personhood.

CONCLUSION:

Jesus is equal to God in nature because he Wisdom, the eternally begotten by God:

Premise 1: Wisdom is eternally begotten by God (Proverbs 8:22-31 LXX)

Premise 2: Jesus is Wisdom (1 Cor. 1:24-25, Hebrews 1:3)

Conclusion: Jesus is eternally begotten by God.

God can be praised through Jesus while remaining purely monotheistic.

Premise 1: monotheistic Jews can praise God through his Wisdom (Proverbs 8:22-31 LXX)

Premise 2: Jesus is Wisdom (1 Cor. 1:24-25, Hebrews 1:3)

Conclusion: monotheistic Jews can praise God through Jesus

macspider

Con

premise 1: For your premise to be true, you have to show somehow first of all that there is a solid reason to believe that there is a god and second of all if jesus was the same historical character as depicted in bible.
premise 2. Never in your entire text you ever presented an idea that could actually say something about god's controversial existence.
premise 3. the matter of fact that you never even doubted if a man named jesus actually walked the earth.
premise 4: there are so many different versions an interpretations of god, that to prove your position you might have to answer a lot of questions.
the truth is truth in all possible situations and conditions, truth is the one that is singular and unchanging
lets be smart enough about it and embrace this opportunity.
Debate Round No. 1
radz

Pro

radz forfeited this round.
macspider

Con

what the hell happened dude. I guess you have found no answer for my simple arguments. anyways maybe next time, u will be up for the task.
Debate Round No. 2
radz

Pro

radz forfeited this round.
macspider

Con

macspider forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
radz

Pro

radz forfeited this round.
macspider

Con

macspider forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by CRAZ4SWAN 3 years ago
CRAZ4SWAN
Is Jesus God? Ahmed Deedat VS Erik Bock
https://www.youtube.com...
Posted by Weiler 3 years ago
Weiler
I believe your topic is flawed, since, the Nicene creed goes much further. According to the Nicene Creed the Father and Son are one in "Being" or "Substance".
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Artur 3 years ago
Artur
radzmacspiderTied
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Total points awarded:14 
Reasons for voting decision: no need to talk about decision, if you read the debate, just this words of con is enough, quoting: "Conwhat the hell happened dude. I guess you have found no answer for my simple arguments. anyways maybe next time, u will be up for the task." even after these, the forfeit went on.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
radzmacspiderTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FAIL