The Instigator
InfraRedEd
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Mickeyrocks
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

No money for education

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/19/2009 Category: Education
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,348 times Debate No: 7901
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)

 

InfraRedEd

Pro

Just keep the buildings maintained and let the people use them and manage their use. If they want to just play bingo that is just fine. Why don't the universities cancal classes and just have $port$ since it is what they have done anyway by cutting off funding and letting Monsanto tell Berkeley to fire a prof who showed that there might be adverse effects to GE. Big business is telling us what to teach and ruining any chance of getting an education. We need to free education and give it back to the people.
Mickeyrocks

Con

Since I don't really understand the Pro's rant, I'll dissect it to crystallize the topic for myself (and the voters.)

1: The resolution is obviously advocating that the federal government cut funding for public education. As a result, a better resolution would be, "Resolved: The U.S. Federal Government should cut funding for public education."

2: The Pro states, "big business is telling us what to teach..." I assume this is an argument against organized curriculum, or (if you want to extend it that far) the No Child Left Behind Act.

3: He cites a Berkeley example, but to my knowledge the federal government provides no funding for private colleges (Harvard, Stanford, etc) just pays for public schooling (community colleges.) Maybe they provide funding for STATE colleges, I'm not sure. Clarification is needed, but until that is done (by the Pro, because I'm not going to discuss colleges.)

That said, on to contentions:

====
C1: Education is a fundamental human right.
====

http://www.un.org...

Article 26 of the UN's Universal Declaration of human rights states, "Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit."

Moreover, article 22 states, "Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality."

In today's society, an education is a key component of the exercise of economic, social and cultural rights within society (especially that of America.) The poor are often subjugated (social), they have inferior access to superior care (economic) and they are eliminated from upper circles, preventing aspiration into a higher echelon of power (cultural.)

Two separate articles of the UN's declaration of human rights provide us with details proving that education is a human right.

====
C2: Federal funding is necessary to ensure all individuals are able to access their right to education.
====

Often the poor and minorities are denied equal access to education. Federal funding allows those who cannot afford private schooling to access education at an equal level with all other individuals. The Pro is advocating a plan that would require schools to revert to a system of tuition-based education in all levels, meaning that "private" schools would be only type of school. Private schools are notoriously well known for high tuition rates, and these high tuition schools would not allow access to those who cannot afford them. As a result, a private education system would literally block out all of those unable to afford high expense tuition costs. Besides the poor, those in the middle class with multiple kids would struggle to pay for all of their child's tuition. It is a burden enough on parents to pay for multiple trips to college, but if one experienced college like tuition fees for all 12 years of primary education, then it stands the reason that those who struggled to afford college would not be able to afford it in this new system. The problem is, without federal funding to education, the gap of uneducated children would widen - allowing all of the poor, and a large portion of the middle class to fall in.

====
C3: Curriculum based education provides the most stringent standards for student development.
====

Classes that allow entirely free teacher autonomy will allow good teachers to teach, but it will also allow bad teachers to teach. Insofar as curriculum forces bad teachers to teach at least adequately, then those students who are at-risk for a poor education are now better off. Additionally, a good teacher will be able to innovate to fit a curriculum, thus his or her teaching ability is slightly, if at all, impaired. Essentially, curriculum provides standards that require teachers to be at least moderately competent in their field.

====
C4: Capitalist-based schooling will exacerbate socioeconomic problems between minorities and the white, upper class.
====

Insofar as minorities are generally less well off financially than whites, if we build upon the reasoning of contention two then those most likely to not receive an education become minorities. The more minority students that are uneducated, the less likely it is that the minority-white economic gap will shrink. Instead, high-rollers in the upper-middle to upper class will still dominate the higher echelons of the workforce, while the lower classes will have 0 access to the means necessary to allow them to transcend these divisive lines. Public education allows lower class students to excel at a close to equal level with their majority counterparts, and as a result it allows more lower-class kids to permeate the educated, skilled workforce.

====
C5: Privately funded education will not benefit the economy.
====

Drawing upon the reasoning of contention two once more, if more students are left out of the loop then more american workers are uneducated and unskilled. In the globalized world we live in, it is necessary - if america is to remain competitive - for it to be made up of a highly skilled, highly educated workforce. We are not longer an industrial-based nation (like China), where manual labor is the primary source of income. America is now a post-industrial nation, where services in the technology sector are the most important goods that we sell. The less individuals that receive the skills and knowledge necessary to do these tasks, the worse off the American workforce is. Either the American economy will lose its global competitiveness, or it will be forced to revert back to an industrial economy to meet the ability of its workers. Either way, the economy suffers.

It is because education, a fundamental human right, can only be adequately provided by the Government, that I must negate.
Debate Round No. 1
InfraRedEd

Pro

We spent 536 billion for education in '04:

http://www.ed.gov...

That's over fifteen hundred bucks for every man, woman and child in this ignorant country. If you had to decide how to spend your share, how would you do it? We will need American flags and pledges of allegiance. Not. University presidents raking in six figures. Not. Interference from Big Business? You'll probably give it to them anyway for some degree-at-home scam.

The greatest obstacle to learning is not ignorance. It is the illusion of learning.

No money for education. No federal, state, county, borough, municipality money may be spent for education. It shall be unlawful to give or receive money to pretend that you know more about something than anyone else. Some college professors will be OK as long as there is no one in the class smarter than they are. All teachers, principals and admisistrators are to be fired immediately. The Department of Education will be dismantled. Application of this to churches is beyond the scope of this debate.

The terms LD format, criteria, value, contention, crystallization, CX, etc refer to portions of an argument for purpose of scoring and time management for oral high school debating tournaments and have absolutely no force of rule here. You may find the formal criteria useful.

Any rules must be in writing and agreed to by all participants before the beginning of play. This is intergalactic law.

The No Child Left Behind Act is a plan to entice students to join the military with false promises and outright lies. For more info check out the picket line at your local recruiting office.

And speaking of religion how about this privately funded educational system. The government (theoretically at least) has nothing to do with it. It provides free education to anyone that wants it because those doing the educating care about educating and not because the government pays them.

Home schooling also, compared to our educational system, beats it like the family mule.

Now this money that we now waste on education will be immediately available for learning and it is a lot.

The educational system not only teaches but certifies that you have been taught. It issues a certificate stating that you are guaranteed to have learned. It spends a great amount of time and energy making sure that you learn. And it is all wasted anyway because students are entering college who lack basic reading skills. Newspapers have to be written at the fourth grade reading level. We call a doctor for dandruff. We do no have the math skills to even shop intelligently, not to mention manage our fourteen-digit debt. An alarming number of Americans cannot read at all, take pills without even knowing what they do and believe Elvis is still alive. We know less about the world than anyone else in it. People in other countries who have no formal education at all and still speak several languages are making fun of Americans who do not know or care where Iran is and can't even commit suicide without assistance. Something needs to be done about this failed system.

What does our educationl system teach?

http://www.nytimes.com...

Hate.
Mickeyrocks

Con

The Pro's argument is an incoherent rant. Basically, it's a bunch of assertions:

1: Our system sucks.
2: No Child Left Behind is a cleverly designed military draft. (?)
3: Home schooling beats "it" like a mule.

Thus this rebuttal will be structured into three observations, which will outline the impacts in today's debate and then discuss which side is winning off of htose.

Observation One:

There is no analysis. No warrants, no impacts. Only claims. He asserts all of this, without any logic or any statistical evidence. As a result, this CANNOT be counted as legitimate evidence in the debate.

For example, if I assert:

- Publicly funded education has stopped thousands of nuclear holocausts.

Then obviously you want me to tell you how. One cannot accept that the claim (nuclear holocausts) is true until there is some reason (analysis like I give, or statistics, quotes whatever) that back that claim up.

The PRO gives none of those, and so his claims are discarded.

Observation Two:

The PRO, even if his assertions are true, OMITS how privately funded education will stop the problems he discusses. He gives you no proof that the PRO plan will fix the problems he asserts, and so even if you VOTE PRO, you still won't solve anything. As a result, the problems he outline REMAIN PROBLEMS on his side. Essentially, there are no unique arguments made by the PRO, and so there's no reason to vote for him.

Observation Three:

He refutes none of the CON's points. These impacts are warranted and impacted. I'll go through them:

(C = Claim, I = Impact)

C1: Education is a fundamental human right.
I: Depriving individuals of education deprives them of their human rights.

C2: Federal funding is necessary to ensure all individuals are able to access their right to education.
I: The PRO plan deprives individuals of education.

C3: Curriculum based education provides the most stringent standards for student development.
I: Implementing the PRO's plan will remove these standards, degrading the value of an education, and the evaporating much of the learning a student COULD have under publicly funded education.

C4: Capitalist-based schooling exacerbates socioeconomic problems.
I: The PRO's plan separates individuals arbitrarily and keeps minorities from achieving. The claim is almost the impact itself: Do you want to perpetuate a system where an arbitrary factor such as race will keep you from accessing your human rights?

C5: Privately funded education will not benefit the economy.
I: A diminished economy harms all 310 million Americans, hurts our global competitiveness and on the whole is very, very, very, bad. :)

Observation Four:

Summary of the Previous Three:

1) There are no PRO impacts, only unwarranted claims.
2) The PRO offers no way to solve for those claims.
3) The CON offers clear impacts, with clear reasoning why the PRO plan will not solve for them.

Observation Five:

Vote Con, please. Hah.
Debate Round No. 2
InfraRedEd

Pro

I support the value of independent thought.

I believe that the mind learns best at its own cadence and under its own direction and motivation.

I believe that opportunities for learning should not be confined to youth but should continue throughout life.

The criteria that would support this value in an educational system are

freedom of learning and expression not found in schools

varieties of learning experience beyond the "classroom."

Allowing each mind to set its own path

Diversity of students and especially teachers. Anyone who wants to teach should be allowed to teach unless there are other issues.

Free education for all. Currently anyone planning on attending college needs to do some serious thinking about money.

Finland is said to have the best school system. We might be able to learn a few things from them but I doubt it.

I support a home education model applied to the neighborhood with participation by all.
Mickeyrocks

Con

I refuse to write an LD case, insofar as you set out the necessity in the round AFTER the parameters are to be outlined. The voters will agree that after two rounds it's futile to change case structure.

You can VOID ALL OF HIS IMPACTS INSTANTLY. All of his impacts rest on two assumptions:

1: Public education equates to time-constrained education. ("I believe that opportunities for learning should not be confined to youth but should continue throughout life.")

2: Public education mandates learning only take place within the classroom. ("varieties of learning experience beyond the 'classroom.'")

So, two observations follow which disprove these assumptions:

1) School has ZERO jurisdiction outside of itself. Schools do not mandate what i do in my spare time (unless you count homework - but we'll address that in a second) and as a result they cannot affect what I learn outside of the classroom, or after my schooling. Because of that, the type of learning my opponent advocates is not infringed upon by public education.

2) The impacts he presents are not unique to my case. He simply says, "schools have these problems..." but does not substantiate how they would be solved by a switch to capitalistic education. Unless he asserts that these private schools would NOT assign homework, and would be so easy as to not require studying, you can drop him right there. Moreover, if this assertion does hold true then schools are pointless because you aren't actually learning anything, but you're still paying money - so there's a direct economic cost. He puts a double bind on himself.

Next, you can cross-apply the first two observations of my last speech here. I won't copy and paste so you don't have to reread that, but here's the tagline (name) of them. It's important to note that HE DOES not refute this, nor does he FIX the problems outlined in these two observations, so they still hold water in the debate in nullifying his points.

1) There are no PRO impacts, only unwarranted claims.
2) The PRO offers no way to solve for those claims.

Finally, a summary of my case. (Copied and pasted, don't read it if you understand my arguments already. Basically, he hasn't addressed these, so I'm bringing them up to reinforce that they are STILL important in the round, and as he's giving you unwarranted assertions you STILL look to my impacts.)

These are all warranted an impacted, so I'll go through my contentions as follows:

(C = Claim, I = Impact.)

C1: Education is a fundamental human right.
I: Depriving individuals of education deprives them of their human rights.

C2: Federal funding is necessary to ensure all individuals are able to access their right to education.
I: The PRO plan deprives individuals of education. (link to the impact of C1)

C3: Curriculum based education provides the most stringent standards for student development.
I: Implementing the PRO's plan will remove these standards, degrading the value of an education, and the evaporating much of the learning a student COULD have under publicly funded education.

C4: Capitalist-based schooling exacerbates socioeconomic problems.
I: The PRO's plan separates individuals arbitrarily and keeps minorities from achieving. The claim is almost the impact itself: Do you want to perpetuate a system where an arbitrary factor such as race will keep you from accessing your human rights?

C5: Privately funded education will not benefit the economy.
I: A diminished economy harms all 310 million Americans, hurts our global competitiveness and on the whole is very, very, very, bad. :)

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
InfraRedEd

Pro

Our government is routinely bribed by lobbyists for special interests. You may have heard of them.
In the 2004 elections, the American Federation of Teachers was the third largest with $12,789,296; the National Education Association was eighth with $10,521,538. American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees was ninth with $9,882,022.

They use this money to bribe Congress to enact laws which allow them to make more money. Education is a big scam that costs about fifteen hundred bucks per year for every man, woman and child in America. Eighteen thousand dollars for a high school degree. My proposal is to let the people keep this money and spend it on their own education. This would actually be pretty good for the economy I would think. Libraries, home schooling, university "open courseware," "distance learning," debating societies.

There is a wealth of open courseware here. I could expand on it but that would deprive my opponent of the experience of learning for oneself. Give it a few minutes.
http://www.google.com...=

If the Aussies can do it anybody can.
http://www.highbeam.com...

One argument for asynchronous (typically web-based) delivery as opposed to synchronous (real-time video) delivery of distance learning courseware is that the goal of distance learning in the future should not be to deliver a vicarious classroom lecture experience using remote technology, but instead should be to use an array of knowledge media to fashion interactive individualized learning environments for remote users.

That's from http://www.westga.edu...

Don Beagle
University of North Carolina at Charlotte

Donald Beagle is Associate Director of Library Services and Head of the Information Commons at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. UNCC's new Information Commons includes send-and-receive distance learning facilities for the North Carolina Information Highway and the North Carolina Research and Education Network.

He also wrote The Information Commons Handbook, Donald Robert Beagle. NY: Neal-Schuman Publishers, Inc., 2006
He sounds like a pretty smart guy.

Here's an article by him:
Donald Beagle. "Conceptualizing an Information Commons", Journal of Academic Librarianship, vol. 25,
no. 2, March, 1999, p. 88
Have to look it up yourself.

The cost of an education is rising alarmingly. State legislatures are balking at financing colleges because Big Business is so eager to help out. This is a big mistake as my opponent has pointed out.

http://debate.uvm.edu...

I thank my opponent for making my arguments for me. Just reverse PRO and CON and adapt arguments about federal vs private funding since the debate is about NO funding. I'm pretty sure I made that clear.

C1: Education is a fundamental human right.
I: Depriving individuals of education deprives them of their human rights.
Our educational system does just that.

C2: Federal funding is necessary to ensure all individuals are able to access their right to education.
This one may need a little work

I: The PRO plan deprives individuals of education.
That's not an education; it is the illusion of an education. Now you have to do it yourself. Here's fifteen humdred bucks.

C3: Curriculum based education provides the most stringent standards for student development.
I: Implementing the PRO's plan will remove these standards, degrading the value of an education, and the evaporating much of the learning a student COULD have under publicly funded education.

I have already argued that those standards do not work.

C4: Capitalist-based schooling exacerbates socioeconomic problems.
Thank you for arguing my side.

I: The PRO's plan separates individuals arbitrarily and keeps minorities from achieving. The claim is almost the impact itself: Do you want to perpetuate a system where an arbitrary factor such as race will keep you from accessing your human rights?
You mean like the educational system?

C5: Privately funded education will not benefit the economy.
I: A diminished economy harms all 310 million Americans, hurts our global competitiveness and on the whole is very, very, very, bad. :)

I fail to see how giving someone fifteen hundred bucks hurts them.

Observation Four:

Summary of the Previous Three:

1) There are no PRO impacts, only unwarranted claims.
What's an impact?

In each rebuttal, the speaker must defend his/her own case from previous attacks made by the opponent, and attack the opponent's case itself. An argument left untouched by the opponent does not necessarily mean that the debater has agreed with that point. However, a failure to touch upon all points may be important, to the degree that "dropped" points cannot be defended later in the debate.
But there is no clear definition of what goes in each round, as there is in oral debating. And oral debating's a whole lot different.

http://udbmas.newsvine.com...

2) The PRO offers no way to solve for those claims.
That is not the intent of a debate. See the rules.
Judges must remember that debaters are not required to propose 'plans' for dealing with given situations.
Mickeyrocks

Con

Finally, an argument?

Alright, we'll address the "open courseware argument":

1) It is "Web-based" - further exacerbating the socioeconomic problems I discuss, NOT solving them.
2) It is non-unique to the PRO: The CON could implement the same plan, and have the exact same results as the PRO.

AKA

There is no unique benefit to the PRO's plan.

Let's go over my case and his asserted rebuttals:

C1: Depriving individuals of education deprives them of their human rights.
"Our education system does just that"

??? This is, in the PRO's fashion, an unsubstantiated assertion. This is not a real argument, it is not a real block. Contention one still stands.

C2: the PRO plan deprives individuals of education.
"Here's 1500 dollars."

Let's review:

1) Private school tuition is usually >1500 a year.
2) Those who don't own home computers + internet cannot afford to buy courseware, a computer + internet, thus it exacerbates the socioeconomic problems I talk about.

Either way, the PRO plan hurts.

C3: Student Development
"Those standards do not work."

Please, show me how? Test scores in the U.S. are the highest they have been in history - how is this a failing system? Moreover, how will YOUR plan solve it? Another assertion. This is not a block.

C4: Socioeconomic problems.

"The current educational system is racist."

School vouchers, teachers being prioritized to problem schools, FREE SCHOOLING all help the poor and minorities. The PRO asserts that the current school system is racist, but fails to refute any of my logic.

C5: Economics.

Whatever, he misses the point, again. The problem is, with less people being taught under the PRO then the economy on the whole will suffer due to an uneducated labor force.

IMPACTS: An impact is a point you vote off of. For example: "The PRO's plan would benefit the economy." is an impact. You have none of these.

SOLVENCY: The PRO has a plan by definition... hahaha. By affirming the resolution, you're saying "There should be no money for education" - the resolution is the plan itself. Basically, your burden is to prove that by providing 0 tax dollars to the educative system the american people would be benefited. You have not done this:

Let's recap the logic:

C1/C2: By depriving individuals who cannot afford education of education, we deprive them necessarily of their human rights. 1,500 dollars is insufficient to afford private schooling or the technology-based schooling my opponent provides. He asserts that the school system now disenfranchises individuals but fails to substantiate this point.

C3: Curriculums weed out the bad teachers. He says the current is flawed but, once more, fails to substantiate this point past a level of base assertion. There is no argument here by the PRO, the CON's logic is untouched.

C4: Once more, the poor will become largely disenfranchised under a privately run educative system. He makes no refutation, just another assertion that the current system is racist. (??) This is another untouched point.

C5: He misses the logic entirely. A stupider work force will not keep the U.S. competitive globally.

Basically, when you debate (orally, in real life, on the internet) you are supposed to give REASONS for why what you say is true. Through all five contentions I have given you solid logic, which the PRO makes random assertions to try and beat. He has one speech left to JUSTIFY any of his claims, and unless he does that you would still look to the CON arguments as being legitimate. Not only that, but he gives you NO REASON for why the PRO fixes any of the problems of the current system, so that also must be done in order to justify voting for him.

At this point in the round, he has no solvency and he has no warrants - I could write the lyrics to a hannah montana song in my next speech, and still probably win.
Debate Round No. 4
InfraRedEd

Pro

http://www.finitesite.com...

My opponent is welcome to support my position.

There are computers at public libraries, colleges and universities, available for free. Courseware is also free.

This is more accessible to the poor because

Hours are whenever you want to learn.

There are no problem libraries.

There is no one to bully you.

The education you get will be the education you want.

You can learn your whole life and not just K-12. I have already made that argument and my opponent replied incoherently.

Again I am not advocating private education. I am advocating no education.

A school voucher is a payment to a private school with funds that should be used for public schools.

By using money that should go to improve the public schools, and instead giving it to private schools, School vouchers hurt the poor.

The school system is not only racist but sexist and classist as well.

Is there more emphasis on boys' athletics or girls'? How about in the colleges?

A free educaion is exactly what we don't have. Remember it costs you.

This will be simple. Everyone who would like all the money back that they spent for an education will vote for me. The "education" that you get is completely worthless. No employer will care if you know what the capital of Uruguay is. If you are self-taught that will catch his or her attention.

It's clearly: Is the education you get in the public schools worth the money you are paying for it?

You have to keep paying this $1500 for your whole life but are educated for only a few years, only about one-fourth of your life, so the real cost is about four times that, $6000 per year.

So that's 1500 for life vs. "education."

A self-taught education is far superior to a classroom "education."

A community or neighborhood learning center with all the people participating vs the current system.

Only losers cry "irrelevant."

Well the teachers do worse than the students on these tests so what does that tell you?

Again "private." I am not advocating private. I am advocating no.

If the purpose of education is to prepare you for work then why not let big business finance education as they are eager to do and see what happens.

The purpose of education goes far beyond that, however. How does English Lit prepare you for employment? It doesn't. It's not supposed to.

Hannah Montana would be fine. Do you know the Bone Dance? YouTube would be more entertaining.

Use the time you save to google "open courseware" as I have already advised.

Visit your nearby computer, library, college and university.

I have left out some of the details in order to allow the individuals to think for themselves.

What is an "education?" Are we getting one? How should it be done differently?

If you vote for my opponent but think about what has been said I will be happy.

If you vote for me that would be OK too but more important is to think.

My opponent is 21 and still in high school. I rest my case.
Mickeyrocks

Con

Mickeyrocks forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
Eductation is NOT a fundamental human right. Where did he get that idea?
Posted by InfraRedEd 7 years ago
InfraRedEd
Mickeyrocks account is no longer active.

Everything but teach:

Summary: Providing students with appropriate learning activities and experiences designed to fulfill their potential for intellectual, emotional, physical and social growth. Immediate Supervisor: Principal Illustrative Duties: * Plan a program of study that, as much as possible, meets the individual needs, interests, and abilities of the students. * Create a classroom environment that is conducive to learning and appropriate to the maturity and interests of the students. * Prepare lessons that reflect accommodations for individual differences. * Prepare for classes...
Posted by Mickeyrocks 7 years ago
Mickeyrocks
I feel as if I could forfeit and still win.
Posted by I-am-a-panda 7 years ago
I-am-a-panda
I'm sure the government have reserves, I'll use this video to demonstrate what the politicians should do with their wallets:
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
In my opinion, we aught to have no public money for education. We could sell the property to businesses who could make a profit and compete (and market themselves... woh.)
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
The school system tries to indoctrinate me into believing that global warming is man made, that oil isn't produced quickly, and that the New Deal was successful.
Posted by fresnoinvasion 7 years ago
fresnoinvasion
You not understanding the pros argument doesn't necessarily mean it was a messy rant. Maybe you're just a product of the school system hes talking about..
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
RANT RANT RANT.

i don't see what PRO is arguing. It's such a mess.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by pcmbrown 7 years ago
pcmbrown
InfraRedEdMickeyrocksTied
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Total points awarded:07