The Instigator
Mewmer
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
SitaraMusica
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Non-late term abortion should remain legal

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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 10/10/2014 Category: Health
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 918 times Debate No: 63043
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

Mewmer

Pro

Abortion should remain legal as it is in many states - up to 23 weeks into pregnancy. The reality is that many women (or couples) experience unwanted pregnancies that they cannot responsibly handle. This is because humans are flawed and not because they are bad people. There are many examples of zygotes that are created in circumstances of which it would be reasonable to abort: rape, incest, drug addiction, prostitution, homelessness and countless other socioeconomic difficulties. The moral argument that it is murder, or that it is a life at these stages is based on personal opinion or religious beliefs - this makes it invalid and it should not be imposed on a general population that has varied religious/moral beliefs. We live in a country that prides itself on the freedom to choose your beliefs, therefore I am pro-choice on this matter. Furthermore, I believe that anyone who is adamantly pro-life is obligated to adopt as many children as possible. As a victim of the results of the foster/orphanage system - I can explain in great detail that every baby that is born is NOT loved and cared for. Only 7,000 families adopted children last year in the USA;

http://www.ccainstitute.org...

That number does not appear to be big enough to support pro-life expectations. There would simply be too many children to care for if we outlawed abortion. There are many children being neglected at this very moment.

To be fair, I will admit that anyone who is willing to step up and care for these unwanted children deserves my utmost respect and silence on the matter, but they are obviously a rarity, so their position does not change my view on the majority.
SitaraMusica

Con

Thank you to my opponant for offering this debate. I disagree that abortion should be allowed unless it is an ectopic pregnancy. I would make that exception to save the life of the mother, but otherwise no. Starting at fertilization, the organism is genetically seperate from both parents. The baby can feel pain as soon as 12 weeks, and can survive as soon as 6 months. The unborn are human beings with rights. A lot of the abortion methods are harmful to the mother and baby. The baby has his or her body torn to pieces in most abortion methods, and that can cause pain to mother and child. I feel it is wrong to kill babies like that. What about the baby's right to choose? If a woman does not want a baby, there are many contraceptive methods out there.
Debate Round No. 1
Mewmer

Pro

Thank you for your response. Since you make so many interesting points, I'll use a bullet point system to review.

" "Starting at fertilization, the organism is genetically seperate from both parents. The baby can feel pain as soon as 12 weeks, and can survive as soon as 6 months."

In response to this, all claims with the last being the exception are backed by dubious medical evidence. The courts were not swayed by these pieces of evidence. I would assume this is because our society tends to agree with capital punishment, euthanasia for terminally ill and war. Also, science can create a way to anesthetize the fetus to address such concerns. I understand the repulsion many feel at that statement. But I must point out that as repulsive as I find it, I believe the war and mass euthanasia of animals regularly practiced by this country is necessary. That along with capital punishment, war, euthanasia of terminally ill people and abortion seem to be some harsh realities of living in a large population with varied religious and moral beliefs.

" "The unborn are human beings with rights. A lot of the abortion methods are harmful to the mother and baby. The baby has his or her body torn to pieces in most abortion methods, and that can cause pain to mother and child. I feel it is wrong to kill babies like that."

In response to this I just have to say that fetuses past 24 weeks are at a point where many would agree that they have rights. As far as most abortions being harmful to the mother - this statement is simply untrue. (Non late term) Abortion is generally a relatively safe and simple procedure, the pill being the simplest. Life is full of health risks and abortion is one of the lesser risks if not done repeatedly. Illegal abortions are by far more deadly and unsafe with much higher risk of complications. Please be mindful that abortions are similar to alcohol - prohibition has never actually worked.

" "What about the baby's right to choose? If a woman does not want a baby, there are many contraceptive methods out there."

You are again making a point based on personal belief that is not collectively held by all people hence why the courts have ruled the way they have. To assume that every couple or single woman are incapable of error or other issues avoided with easy access to birth control is to live in a fantasy world where all these unwanted children are adopted and loved. It is simply not realistic. There are not enough people to take care of the children in need as it is, I can't imagine adding more. The foster system is not an answer.
SitaraMusica

Con

It is very dangerous to decide that babies are not human. Most abortions saying that something is true because the majority believes it is the bandwagon fallacy. Just because something is a sincere belief, does not make it true. We need to be governed by the rule of law which supports the inherent worth of each human being from the time their life starts onward. I empathize with mothers with an unwanted pregnancy, because I had a pregnancy scare once, but I need to think with logic that our life begins at implantation and deserves to be protected.
Debate Round No. 2
Mewmer

Pro

We have not decided babies are not human. People are aware that a form of life is being terminated and are not offended enough before the 24th week to outlaw it. Laws condone death under specific circumstances like early term abortion. I respect that you do not like the idea of abortion, especially in the 20th-24th weeks I'm guessing - but many women are just as offended by the idea that it is not their choice. Some simply do not find anything wrong with terminating a pregnancy in the early stages for legitimate reasons. Examples of extreme late term abortion and mothers who suffer permanent medical complications are not the norm.
SitaraMusica

Con

Let the record show that my opponant is using the bandwagon fallacy again. Just because the majority believes something, does not mean that it is true. We know from science that the baby is genetically the same before birth as it is after birth. Birth is just a change in location. The unborn baby is a human being with rights.
Debate Round No. 3
Mewmer

Pro

A baby being genetically the same at conception (or at any stage before birth) as it is after birth does not mean it has the capability to make choices or use rights at all stages. Much like children have limited rights through the age of 21, because they do not posses the ability to make such choices. The parents are responsible to make important choices for them. This principle can be applied to a fetus before a certain point in development. The fetus has no cognitive ability to make sound decisions. The woman's choice to not bring a fetus to term is akin to an adult making a judgement call regarding their offspring.
SitaraMusica

Con

I disagree. The baby is a genetically different person with rights. It is not part of the mother's body. If a woman does not want a baby, she needs to close her legs or use birth control. No one has the right to kill another person for no reason. It is truely an Orwellian society when unborn babies are killed because the mother is too selfish to use birth control. You have to show me any text, religious or otherwise that says killing babies is morally acceptable. If the baby is the same before birth as after, the logical conclusion is that the unborn baby has rights.
Debate Round No. 4
Mewmer

Pro

The issue arises again with applying your own moral beliefs to something that affects others with vastly different morals. I will say harshly that I do not believe an embryo is a "baby with rights.". That is your belief that is not strongly supported by science. I do not believe it is "killing babies" to abort in the earliest terms of pregnancy at all. Women naturally miscarry all the time and do not ever know it. That being said, religious text does not apply when it comes to the legal argument that an embryo or fetus has rights. I am not concerned with the religious aspects of early term abortion as we live in a world where many forms of death are legalized and even condoned by religions or done for the greater good. It is unselfish to abort in many situations. You ask for an example of text where killing babies is acceptable - I will cite your own text in your first response ("unless it is an ectopic pregnancy). An abortion for ectopic pregnancy is technically the same as any other abortion, but you personally feel that moral responsibility is relieved because of the medical dangers involved. The idea seems contradictory because you say the baby should have rights starting at conception.
SitaraMusica

Con

My debate partner is accusing me of forcing my beliefs on others. I will step by step demonstrate why I do not think that I am. 1. I affirm the right of the woman to use contraception. I see nothing wrong with preventing fertilization, but once fertilization happens, a new life exists that has rights. 2. I support abortion for the life of the mother or if the baby will die anyway. I am not a no exceptions kind of girl. 3. Most women who are pregnant chose to have sex. I understand that pregnancy due to rape happens, but statistics are difficult to obtain. If a woman has unprotected sex, she is consenting to pregnancy. If she does not want a baby, she needs to use contraception. I am aware of the anticontraceptive movement which makes this difficult, but I am an advocate that fights for contraceptive rights. I have enjoyed my debate with you, wish you well, and look forward to debating in the future.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Neoman 2 years ago
Neoman
Its her decision first of all. she will be the one living with all the physical/chemical changes in her OWN body. If she decides she cant live with these changes, then she has every right to abort. No matter what other "books" say. Plus, the protection tactics that con mentioned in his statement, does not work %100, all the time. Wear 3 condoms and still she can get pregnant.
Posted by Mewmer 2 years ago
Mewmer
I should clarify that because the women chose carry her fetus to term - her choice to ultimately bring a life into the world was violated by the murderer. It can then be argued that the murderer killed a zygote or fetus that would eventually be considered "alive" which can be viewed as murder in a legal sense. This logic is based on the principle of attempted murder/premeditated murder vs manslaughter. The legal system recognizes grey areas - such as the fact that someone was intending to have a child vs a woman choosing to abort a fetus. Much like the fact that he law recognizes when someone maliciously intended to murder or they did it out of passion. Murder has never been black and white, so the double murder reasoning does not necessarily apply to whether a fetus is indeed "alive" .
Posted by Mewmer 2 years ago
Mewmer
Shame you didn't accept the challenge, you have an interesting point which is commonly brought up. There seems to be widespread failure to distinguish between a woman making a choice to abort and being murdered while pregnant. Please keep these key words in mind while reading: Choice, chosen, choose.

A. It is assumed that a pregnant woman who is not in the process of having an abortion has chosen to keep the baby.

B. Her murder violates the choice she made.

Simply because the woman's legal choice to keep her child was violated, it does not prove the embryo or fetus is "alive" or any other argument pro-life advocates describe. Criminal responsibility for this act is applicable to the murderer only, the law referenced does not have anything to do with the woman's right to choose.
Posted by funnycn 2 years ago
funnycn
Abortion is murder. Killing a pregnant woman is DOUBLE homicide.
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