The Instigator
theunionforever61
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
xXCryptoXx
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

Obama is not a Muslim

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
xXCryptoXx
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/11/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,025 times Debate No: 35512
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (7)

 

theunionforever61

Pro

Ever since Obama has been elected president there has been a rumor, spread by conservative groups, that he is a Muslim. There is no evidence whatsoever to support this claim, and I aim to prove it is false.

Rules:
1. I would like for this to be a serious debate, so please no trolling. Thank you.
2. Round 1 is only for acceptance.
xXCryptoXx

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
theunionforever61

Pro

1. Obama can"t be a Muslim because he follows none of the 5 pillars of Islam. He also can"t secretly be following the 5 pillars as I will show. Failure to follow these 5 pillars basically means you are not a Muslim (not that Obama ever claimed to be a Muslim).
The 5 pillars are:

1. Shahadah:
This is a declaration of one"s faith. It translates to (I"m paraphrasing) "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger" . If one wants to convert to Islam, one has to say these words earnestly in the presence of 4 witnesses. No one, has ever heard him say these words ever in his life, let alone in front of 4 witnesses.
2. Salah
Salah translates to prayer in English. A Muslim has to pray 5 times a day. The prayer times are (for today) 4:39 AM, 1:35 PM , 5:24 PM, 8:46 PM and 10:25 PM, and the prayer time is about 5-10 minutes. It would be impossible for Obama to slip away 5 times a day what with all the secret service agents around him, especially at those times. Also, Muslim men are required to go to a mosque on Friday and listen to a sermon that is, on average, an hour long. This is impossible for Obama and he would never be able to do this. Also, no one has ever recorded him going to a mosque at any point with the intention of worshiping.
3. Zakat
Zakat is charity. If a Muslim can afford it, then they are required to give 2.5% of their saved wealth (not their income) to charity. A Muslim must also not do this publicly because they cannot show off. The amount Obama gives to charity is publicly available, violating the command to give in private. Also, Obama gives the wealth he gains from his income to charity, not from his saved wealth.
4. Fasting (not drinking or eating)
During the month of Ramadan (about 30 days) (btw, Ramadan started 3 days ago) a Muslim, if he/she is able to must fast from sunrise to sunset. Before sunrise, however they must get up and eat. Obama does not fast (he eats and drinks during the day). In addition, even if Obama wanted to fast, people would notice him not eating at traditional meal times for 30 days straight. It would also be impossible for him to get up at 4:30 AM (before sunrise), eat an entire meal, and then go back to bed without someone noticing for 30 days.
5. Hajj
Hajj is a Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca, the birthplace of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the site of the Kabba, the holiest site of Islam. Hajj takes about a week and is required of every Muslim, if they are able to do so, at least once in their life. Obama still has time to do this, but he has never expressed an interest in going there ever to anybody.

One other major thing is that Obama drinks alcohol, which is forbidden in Islam.

Obama also has a long relationship with the Trinity United Church of Christ, stretching back to his Chicago days. This shows Obama's Christianity.
xXCryptoXx

Con

Thank you for your response.

Now, my opponent’s arguments really go along the lines of “He’s doesn’t practice the Muslim faith, therefore he’s not Muslim.”

Blatantly, this is not enough to fulfill your burden of proof.

A Christian believes in the Judeo-Christian God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, ect. ect.

A Good Christian believes in these things, follows the moral guidelines of the Bible, goes to church, participates in the sacraments ect.

My point is, you can still be part of a religion through belief, even if you don’t put that religion into practice.

In other words, there is really no need to respond to your 5 points on “why Obama isn’t Muslim” because those are all putting the Muslim faith into practice. Anyways, you have the BOP on proving these things, and I can tell you that you have absolutely no proof on points one (The witnesses simply haven’t notified many people if any), three (I’m sure Obama could easily find a way to donate money privately through other people), and 5 (seeing that he is president and has led a very busy political life it is very possible he simply hasn’t had the time).

My arguments will basically show that Obama is indeed a Muslim (or that my opponent doesn’t have enough proof to show he isn’t), just a really, really, bad Muslim. What I mean is that Obama holds Muslim beliefs, but doesn’t put them into practice.


“Obama also has a long relationship with the Trinity United Church of Christ, stretching back to his Chicago days. This shows Obama's Christianity.”

Not really. Obama has a very diverse past of religion. As a child he learned about the Islam faith, Christianity, and even African and Norse mythology. (1)

In addition, it is very possible that Obama joined a Christian church not only to throw other off from being a Muslim (bad for politics), and joined a Christian Church because that is politically advantageous.

Please watch the video.

Recently, there has been a controversy regarding the gold ring worn by Obama. it is the gold ring on which a part of Kalama Shahdat is written. Kalama Shahdat is the verse which defines complete faith of Islam. ‘There is no God but Allah” had been printed on his ring, but the last part is missing which is, “and Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger.” (2)


Many politicians and media spokespeople revealed that Barack Obama is a Muslim, but to completely conceal this statement, Obama joined the united church of Christ. This attempt was to downplay his Islamic background. According to the resources, when President Barack Obama was sworn into his office, he used the Holy Quran and not the bible.” (2)

(1) http://atheism.about.com...

(2) http://muslim-academy.com...


Debate Round No. 2
theunionforever61

Pro

Thank you for your quick response.
I actually went into this debate thinking both of us would be trying to prove our respective points beyond a reasonable doubt, not just having the BoP on me. In that case, this debate would be impossible for me to win, because all you have to do is keep saying that Obama secretly believes in Islam and is just a bad Muslim, and nobody can disprove that because nobody can read his mind. Also, isn"t the BoP on the accuser? You are accusing him of being Muslim when he says he is not. But, in any case I"m sorry that I did not make that clear in the rules.

1. The Video
In the Video, Obama is saying he has a Muslim background, not that he is a Muslim. Also, how is having a good accent in Arabic and praising Islam and Islamic countries make you a Muslim, when you do not even practice the basic tenets of that faith?

2. Obama has also repeatedly said he is a Christian (http://www.huffingtonpost.com...) and he also said that he is a "Christian by choice": "It was because the precepts of Jesus Christ spoke to me in terms of the kind of life that I would want to lead," Obama said. "Being my brother's and sister's keeper. Treating others as they would treat me." Also, "Understanding that Jesus Christ dying for my sins spoke to the humility we all have to have as human beings, that we're sinful and we're flawed, we make mistakes," Obama said. "And that we achieve salvation through the grace of God." (http://articles.latimes.com...)

So to recap, Obama does not practice any part of the Muslim faith and also says he is a Christian and inspired by Christ. It just does not make sense that he would not practice any of the tenets of Islam, actually violate Muslim laws (i.e. drink alcohol) and still secretly believe in Islam, but it is likely that he is a Christian. Do you have any evidence that he is lying (not just speculation)?

On your rebuttal to Zakat:
Here I think you are missing the point. Obama, even if he does give money in secret, is already violating the command by giving any money to charity publicly.

3. Use of Quran at inauguration and the golden ring:
I have serious concerns about your source on this. The author provides no evidence that a Quran was used at the inauguration (not even a picture) and it is impossible that the person administering the Oath of Office would not have noticed. On the golden ring, he also provides no evidence, not even a picture that this ring exists. So, it seems to me neither of these things are evidence but just more unsubstantiated rumors. Also, Muslim men are forbidden from wearing gold or silk, as it is considered too feminine, so he is violating yet another command if this ring exists. He also says that, "Many politicians and media spokespeople revealed that Barack Obama is a Muslim, but to completely conceal this statement, Obama joined the united church of Christ. This attempt was to downplay his Islamic background." Yet again, more unsubstantiated rumors with no evidence whatsoever. This statement also contradicts your video evidence where Obama is actually talking up his Muslim background.

4. Your first source:
You use your first source to say, "Obama has a very diverse past of religion. As a child he learned about the Islam faith, Christianity, and even African and Norse mythology" and this disproves my point about him being Christian because of his ties to the Trinity United Church of Christ.

Well, if you read farther down, it says in the same source that, "Eventually, Barack Obama abandoned this non-conformism and skepticism to be baptized as an adult in the Trinity United Church of Christ."

He was even baptized at that Church according to your source, pointing to further evidence of his Christianity.

Another point is that Obama, even according to you, was raised in a diverse religious background ("Obama has a very diverse past of religion. As a child he learned about the Islam faith, Christianity, and even African and Norse mythology"). So he wasn"t raised in a Muslim environment, and for most of his life did not even have contact with his Muslim father.

According to your own source he was a skeptic and non-conformist, not a Muslim, and abandoned his skepticism after he was baptized.

Also, I forgot to ask in the previous round but, do you actually believe Obama is a Muslim or are you just debating for the sake of debating?
xXCryptoXx

Con

Well I mean, you're the instigator of this debate so I figured the BOP was on you.

Anyways, this debate is honestly going to seem like a stand still because there seems that there is absolutely no way either of us can prove what religion Obama is. He has an Islamic background, knows very much about the Islamic faith, admits to once being a Muslim, and it is very possible that he denies being a Muslim now due to that being politically disadvantageous (face it, there will be a handful of Americans that will not support Obama because Muslims are supposedly our "enemy").

Obama could also be Christian just on the point that he says he is, and was baptized into the faith.

He also doesn't practice either religion at all.

The whole thing honestly just seems pretty iffy to me.

The Video

I poste the video simply to prove my point that not only does Obama know a lot about the Islam faith, but that he also supports those of the Islamic faith, more so than other religions.

It also shows that Obama has an extensive background with the Islamic faith.

Obama and Christianity

Sure, Obama can say he is Christian, but as explained earlier this could easily be because being Christian is simply an advantageous religion to have politically. At the same time, being Muslim is very disadvantageous politically.

In addition, Obama would only need to say a few glittering generalities about how great God is and how he came to Jesus Christ to get people to believe he was Christian.


"Obama does not practice any part of the Muslim faith and also says he is a Christian and inspired by Christ. It just does not make sense that he would not practice any of the tenets of Islam, actually violate Muslim laws (i.e. drink alcohol) and still secretly believe in Islam, but it is likely that he is a Christian."

You make a mistake here, you see, Obama doesn't put Christianity into practice either.

Obama rarely ever attends Mass (It is required to go every weekend), and he supports things that the Christian faith is strictly against i.e gay marriage and abortion.

So Obama doesn't practice either religion, and he even goes against the teachings of both religions.



"Do you have any evidence that he is lying (not just speculation)?"

I cannot simply have evidence that he is lying; If I did we wouldn't be having this debate at all.

However, I have given some sound reasons for why he could be lying.

I have shown that he ha lot of knowledge of Islam, supports Muslims, has an Islamic background, and that it would be politically disadvantageous for him to be Muslim so he lied about his religion.

He also doesn't put his Christian faith into practice.

Since Obama doesn't put either religion into practice, and goes against the teachings of both religions, we can only debate on what he believes in, which is frankly, impossible.


Quran and the Golden Ring

I just got these two things off my sources simply to support my arguments.

You didn't actually disprove my source other than "they didn't show evidence" and you didn't even give a counter source to bring my own down.


"Also, Muslim men are forbidden from wearing gold or silk, as it is considered too feminine, so he is violating yet another command if this ring exists."

Through-out this debate I have only been arguing that Obama is Muslim in faith, not practice.

In the same way, Obama could only be Christian in faith, not practice.

He violates both religions.


"Many politicians and media spokespeople revealed that Barack Obama is a Muslim, but to completely conceal this statement, Obama joined the united church of Christ. This attempt was to downplay his Islamic background." Yet again, more unsubstantiated rumors with no evidence whatsoever. This statement also contradicts your video evidence where Obama is actually talking up his Muslim background.


Seeing that the argument comes from a logical stand point, and not an evidential stand point, there is no need to show evidence to support the claim. There is no contradiction, it downplays his Islamic background to make it seem less likely that he would be a Muslim.

I wouldn't say that Obama is talking up his Islamic backgrnd as it is him showing how knowledgable he is on the Islamic faith. He was also talking to Muslims I believe, so at the point it would be advantageous for him to show his knowledge and past on Islam.

Sources

"He was even baptized at that Church according to your source, pointing to further evidence of his Christianity."

This also helps my point on showing that he wants to make it look as if he is Christian for political advantage.

Anyways, a person can't actually be Christian without first beng baptized.


"Another point is that Obama, even according to you, was raised in a diverse religious background ("Obama has a very diverse past of religion. As a child he learned about the Islam faith, Christianity, and even African and Norse mythology"). So he wasn"t raised in a Muslim environment, and for most of his life did not even have contact with his Muslim father"

However, he did have contact with his Muslim step-father for much of his life. This comes froms my first source.


Due to the fact that we don't know who the BOP falls on, the fact that Obama puts neither faith into practice, and that we simply cannot know what Obama believes because he could easily utilize any religion as a tool for political gain, I propose that this debate should be left at a tie.

Thank you for initiating this debate.



Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by theunionforever61 3 years ago
theunionforever61
That was a big mistake of mine to take the BoP. Those saying that Obama is Muslim should prove that he is. Thanks for the advice, I will take under consideration in my future debates.
Posted by wrichcirw 3 years ago
wrichcirw
"There is no evidence whatsoever to support this claim, and I aim to prove it is false."

Pro takes the BOP"

---

He takes BoP to proof there is no evidence, that there is no proof?

That seems contradictory, IMHO. I maintain that BoP is on CON. Nice try though. =)
Posted by wrichcirw 3 years ago
wrichcirw
7) CON: "This also helps my point on showing that he wants to make it look as if he is Christian for political advantage. "

But the baptism shows him as a practicing Christian...

---

CONCLUSION

I found CON's arguments to be reasonable, but did not establish what I saw as BoP placed upon him to prove that Obama is a Muslim. All I see is that Obama has a profound respect for the religion, and that he has deep religious roots with Islam...however he is a practicing Christian, and the two religions are exclusionary. This is strong support for PRO's case.

On sources, PRO successfully negated most of CON's sources. The ring argument is suspicious...I agree the source is suspect. My own digging into this showed that the argument is not valid. However, I recognize that CON actually sourced, so I will score it neutral.

Arguments PRO, conduct CON.

Interesting debate. I was surprised CON had a viable position on this, and that this was not a trolling debate. Thank you both.
Posted by xXCryptoXx 3 years ago
xXCryptoXx
"There is no evidence whatsoever to support this claim, and I aim to prove it is false."

Pro takes the BOP
Posted by wrichcirw 3 years ago
wrichcirw
I'm going to put BoP on CON due to the resolution being in a negative.

CON: "I can tell you that you have absolutely no proof on points one (The witnesses simply haven"t notified many people if any), three (I"m sure Obama could easily find a way to donate money privately through other people), and 5 (seeing that he is president and has led a very busy political life it is very possible he simply hasn"t had the time)."

This would be required to prove that Obama is a Muslim. Without proof, there is no claim, so IMHO CON's conjectures here are invalid, as he must prove that Obama is a Muslim. Regardless, I agree with CON that practice and belief are separate issues, and that this debate revolves around belief.

2) PRO: "Also, isn"t the BoP on the accuser? You are accusing him of being Muslim when he says he is not. But, in any case I"m sorry that I did not make that clear in the rules."

Agree with this. I will make it fair by awarding conduct to CON.

3) PRO: " Obama has also repeatedly said he is a Christian...and he also said that he is a "Christian by choice""

I don't see how CON can possibly surmount this hurdle. Obama proclaims his Christianity, and the two religions are exclusionary...you can't be both.

4) PRO: "Well, if you read farther down, it says in the same source that, "Eventually, Barack Obama abandoned this non-conformism and skepticism to be baptized as an adult in the Trinity United Church of Christ."

I am compelled to give sources to PRO at this point.

5) CON: "...admits to once being a Muslim..."

Unsubstantiated. All that has been substantiated is non-conformist.

6) CON: "Sure, Obama can say he is Christian, but as explained earlier this could easily be because being Christian is simply an advantageous religion to have politically. At the same time, being Muslim is very disadvantageous politically. "

As believable as this may be, you have to PROVE that this is why he is a professed Christian.

(con't and conclus
Posted by wrichcirw 3 years ago
wrichcirw
Before I begin reading this debate, I will first say I watched the video and have the following to say:

Take away the misleading headers and the unsubstantiable Fox News commentary, and the main impression I get out of Obama's words is that he has a profound respect for the Muslim faith, one that he may or may not hold. I also agree with Obama that we are not at war with Islam, but with radical Islam...similarly we are not at war with Christianity, but with radical elements of Christianity like the KKK and David Koresh.

I am better for watching the video, but only after eliminating any and all biased, prejudiced commentary inserted in the video that had the purpose to distort whatever it was Obama was actually saying. I was surprised by Obama's command of basic Arabic. I also note that the video itself comes with a disclaimer that they are not asserting that Obama is a Muslim, and that any implications that Obama considered America to be a Muslim country were totally baseless and served to discredit the perspectives of the makers of the video.

For the purposes of this debate, I will hold the video as evidence supporting PRO's position.
Posted by JustinAMoffatt 3 years ago
JustinAMoffatt
Is BOP yours?
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by PatriotPerson 3 years ago
PatriotPerson
theunionforever61xXCryptoXxTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: I agreed with Pro before and after. However, I give conduct points to Con, and everything else is tied.
Vote Placed by ClassicRobert 3 years ago
ClassicRobert
theunionforever61xXCryptoXxTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Counter Shadowguynick. As always, contact me if his RFD improves.
Vote Placed by Shadowguynick 3 years ago
Shadowguynick
theunionforever61xXCryptoXxTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Eh, Really it just came down to fact that Pro's arguments were more convincing. But it was a good debate.
Vote Placed by 1Historygenius 3 years ago
1Historygenius
theunionforever61xXCryptoXxTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I see the BOP on Pro for this and he was unable to provide for the whole debate. Con on the other hand made great refutations to Pro's arguments and he was also able to defend the attack on his sources. Remember what Pro stated in Round 1: "I aim to prove it is false."
Vote Placed by wrichcirw 3 years ago
wrichcirw
theunionforever61xXCryptoXxTied
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Reasons for voting decision: see comments. Surprisingly interesting and relevant.
Vote Placed by Ameliamk1 3 years ago
Ameliamk1
theunionforever61xXCryptoXxTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con's claim that the BOP is on pro is ridiculous. The BOP was squarely set on con, and he didn't even come close to meeting it.
Vote Placed by MrJosh 3 years ago
MrJosh
theunionforever61xXCryptoXxTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I would award arguments to PRO, if it weren't for the fact that he stated in round 1, "I aim to prove it is false." He directly took on the BOP, and while he did make convincing arguments, he did not meet his BOP.