The Instigator
WilliamsP
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
1Historygenius
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Obamacare

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
1Historygenius
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/22/2014 Category: Health
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 764 times Debate No: 46513
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

WilliamsP

Pro

I am an Atheist, a Liberal, and a Democrat, and I believe that Obamacare is a great policy, but still has a few flaws that must be repaired. It should not be repealed and the Congress and the President should work together in order to repair the broken aspects of the healthcare system.

I look forward to debating anyone who opposes Obamacare. Please note that the first round is only for acceptance and making your claim. Round 2 will be for main arguments, round 3 will be for supporting evidence, and the final two rounds will be for rebuttals.
1Historygenius

Con

BoP on Pro to prove Obamacare is a great policy.

I accept your challenge. I believe Obamacare is a bad law that should be repealed. I await your arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
WilliamsP

Pro

http://en.wikipedia.org...

For me to explain all the greatness of Obamacare, I would have to write endlessly. Therefore, I have posted a link. I recognize that Wikipedia isn't always a reliable source, but you can't say that the entire site is a lie, right? There will be a few inaccuracies in the link, but I assure you, the things listed are either fact or based on fact.

Please also take into consideration that I am an amateur debater. Thank you.
1Historygenius

Con

I can see that my opponent is new here to debate.org. I do not simply intend to win this debate, but I intend to offer him helpful advice on the way which will come in round 4 since rounds 2 and 3 seem to be primarily for giving arguments not criticizing my opponents argument. I wish my opponent well in this debate and hope he has a great time on debate.org. Now for my case.

The "Unaffordable" Care Act

The Afforable Care Act or Obamacare or ACA (depending on what you prefer to use) should not be passed because it is simply not affordable. This act will raise far higher costs than we can pay for and our country already has a spending problem. The total cost of Obamacare is $1.76 trillion over the next ten years according to the Congressional Budget Office. These costs are not sustainable and will cause a widening deficit as time goes on. [1]

This picture illustrates the problem with revenue and spending:

Projected expenses and revenues.

In order to deal with the situation, Obamacare includes tax hikes to pay for it, but as illustrated by the Laffer curve: more taxes means less revenue because less people have an incentive to work harder if they make less money and money will be hidden in tax shelters where it cannot be used to boom our economy:

Tax hikes under Obamacare

These taxes kill job growth as the CBO has analyzed:

"In its new budget outlook, CBO very clearly states that Obamacare amounts to an implicit tax on work and workers that will reduce employment by as much as 2.5 million jobs over the next ten years." [2]

Loss of Freedom

Aside from the high costs of Obamacare, it also leads to a lose in your doctor and healthcare provider. As the National Center reports:

"An astonishing 46 percent of responding primary care physicians claim they would leave or try to leave medicine as a result of ObamaCare, gravely exacerbating the existing shortage of primary care doctors (according to the American Academy of Family Physicians, the number of U.S. medical school students choosing primary care has already dropped 52 percent since 1997)." [3]

Already millions are losing their healthcare coverage:

"Not only is Obamacare costing hardworking American families hours and jobs, but thousands continue to receive healthcare cancellation notices. So far, at least 5 million Americans have lost their current healthcare plans because their insurance no longer meets the new standards set under Obamacare. With the continued rocky rollout of Obamacare, this year will see millions of individuals with small-group market plans, mostly provided by small businesses; lose coverage due to dramatic increases in healthcare premiums." [4]

Sources

1. http://news.yahoo.com...;
2. http://www.forbes.com...
3. http://www.nationalcenter.org...
4. http://dailycaller.com...
Debate Round No. 2
WilliamsP

Pro

Your points are valid and I will not deny them. However, I am going to continue making my case:

Obamacare is working for millions

Millions are insured under the Affordable Care Act and are prospering. An individual the President mentioned in his 2014 State of the Union Address is a perfect example of how it is working: She was uninsured and had to have surgery. She obtained health insurance and got the surgery. A week ago, it would have meant bankruptcy.

"The Affordable Care Act already has added nine million Americans, who previously had no coverage or had inadequate coverage, to the rolls of the insured, either by people buying lower cost individual coverage on the exchanges or by the expansion of Medicaid in those states that accepted the federal funding for the expansion. But many Republican-led states, like North Carolina, refused the expansion, despite the fact 100 percent of the added cost is covered by the feds for the first three years and 90 percent forever after. Many such state governments have done all they can to interfere with the implementation by making it difficult for people to get information and understand the new law." [1]

Republicans want to only repeal Obamacare

All Republicans care about is repealing Obamacare. That is their agenda. They do not have the capacity to shake hands with the President and tell him, "Let's work together." Instead, they focus on repealing Obamacare. While they are fighting the law, they can't see some of the successes of the ACA. Why can't Republicans work with the President in order to repair the law? Barack Obama acknowledges the flaws of the law, but the Republicans in Congress cannot acknowledge the successes.

ACA facts

"As of Oct. 1, every state will have a health insurance marketplace, where consumers can shop for coverage. In addition to mandating that insurers in those marketplaces offer the 10 essential health benefits, the health care law also sets certain standards that all insurers must meet, whether they're providing health insurance through an employer or directly to individuals and small groups. The law:

Eliminates lifetime limits on essential medical expenses;

Prohibits insurers from dropping your coverage or raising your premiums if you get sick " or from denying coverage if you have a preexisting condition;

Ensures that your child can stay on your health plan until age 26;

Caps annual out-of-pocket medical and drug expenses up to an estimated $6,400 for individuals and $12,800 for families." [2]

You cannot deny some of the benefits of the Affordable Care Act. Why do you want the law to be repealed when it is already doing so much for Americans?

More information on the following link:
http://www.forbes.com...

References

[1] http://www.the-dispatch.com...
[2] http://www.aarp.org...
1Historygenius

Con

Continuing with more arguments.

No Consensus

"For decades, a rule of thumb in Washington has said that there should be popular support and a bipartisan majority before approving an initiative that significantly affects tens of millions of Americans. Health-care reform—ObamaCare—has neither, yet Democrats want to impose it anyway. If they succeed, the consequences could be devastating for the country and probably for the president and his party.

The reasoning behind the rule is simple. Forcing drastic change on an unwilling public is likely to cause national disunity, stir angry protests, increase political polarization, and deepen distrust of Washington. But if popular opinion and both political parties support the change, discord will be minimal." [1]

In this case, the public his highly unwilling to support the law. It has never had support in the polls, at least as far as the RealClearPolitics average is concerned. According to the latest polls in the RCP average:

Oppose: 51.6%
For: 39.0% [2]

At the confereces and committees when the health care law was first being created, all Republicans and several Democrats were not invited. There was only one exception, but that is simply not fair. The bill is also known to be incredible wrong leading to Nancy Pelosi's "We have to pass the bill so you can find out what's in it." [3]

The Uninsured

Obamacare does not at all help the uninsured. Most free market solutions to healthcare allows the effects of supply and demand to allow more quality and cheaper healthcare. One solution I link here provides a very good idea. [4]

I have already explained higher premiums and taxes ruin the quality of health care and the Heritage Foundation adds:

"Obamacare imposes a penalty—or tax increase—on Americans who do not purchase health insurance. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that most of those paying these taxes are middle-class individuals and families making less than 500 percent of the federal poverty level: $59,000 for an individual and $120,000 for a family of four. Three million lower-income and middle-class Americans will pay an estimated $2 billion in these 'mandate taxes.'" [5]


Sources

1. http://online.wsj.com...;
2. http://www.realclearpolitics.com...
3. http://www.usnews.com...
4. http://archive.lewrockwell.com...
5. http://blog.heritage.org...
Debate Round No. 3
WilliamsP

Pro

Your points are mostly valid and I will not deny the facts. However, why would you want to repeal the law when you can work with the President in order to repair it? The President acknowledges the flaws of the healthcare law and he is willing to work with Republicans and Democrats alike.
1Historygenius

Con

Wikipedia Problem

In his first argument, my opponent made a bad move for the debate that I am going to explain in order to help him out. This will make him debate better as he goes on. He said:

"For me to explain all the greatness of Obamacare, I would have to write endlessly. Therefore, I have posted a link. I recognize that Wikipedia isn't always a reliable source, but you can't say that the entire site is a lie, right? There will be a few inaccuracies in the link, but I assure you, the things listed are either fact or based on fact."

First off, you don't have to explain everything. You could have picked six specific benefits of Obamacare and put three in round 1 and three round 2. You don't have to write a thousand pages on the benefits of ths health care.

The next problem is his source. I want explain where I stand on Wikipedia. It is alright to give basic information and facts, but it is not good to convince people. Wikipedia, at least in my opinion, is becoming a rising problem on debate.org because more people use it for convincing arguments than ever before. These people also sometimes manage to win debates despite their opponents having more credible and academic sources. That probably won't be the case here, but I think it is a problem on debate.org.

Obamacare isn't working for millions

Did you not hear about the website problems that it had? There is now a report from the Times that Obama considered getting rid of the website all together:

"President Obama considered scrapping HealthCare.gov and starting over at the height of the website's problems last fall, according to a report in Time magazine.

The revelation underscores the total chaos that faced the White House and federal health officials in October when ObamaCare's enrollment website was barely functioning." [1]

Don't forget that millions are set to lose their healthcare premiums and watch them go up:

"The new health care reform law was intended to expand health insurance coverage to more than half of the 50 million people in America currently uninsured. But one trade association warned Tuesday that it will end up driving 60 million manufacturing workers out of coverage supplied by their employers over the next decade unless it’s fixed." [2]

Go Republicans Go!

They are trying to repeal a law that isn't popular and not what the American people wanted in the first place. Keep in mind that almost no GOP congressmen were allowed into the Obamacare committees. This law is highly partisan and holds little of what the Republicans want. Also, they did have a plan back when the new health care reform bill was being rolled out in 2010.

The Republican plan included tort reform, interstate competition for insurance, and individual deductibility of insurance premiums. There was no mystery whatsoever as to what Republicans wanted. The Democrats offered no compromise on anything the Republicans wanted and the result is complete partisanship. [3]

ACA Fables

"As of Oct. 1, every state will have a health insurance marketplace, where consumers can shop for coverage. In addition to mandating that insurers in those marketplaces offer the 10 essential health benefits, the health care law also sets certain standards that all insurers must meet, whether they're providing health insurance through an employer or directly to individuals and small groups."

Except that did not happen at all on October 1. That law is going to help very little Americans and its costs far outweigh its benefits. As with Obamacare coverage:

"For instance, the average deductible for a bronze plan in the 34 states with a federally facilitated exchange is $5,095 a year for an individual, and the average catastrophic plan carries an individual deductible of $6,346. Moreover, 42 states will see significant average premium increases—in many cases, over 100 percent—for individuals purchasing from the exchanges. Therefore, enrollees may not see “better” insurance for their money." [4]

Pre-existing condition problem and tax problem:

"Beginning in 2014, Obamacare enforced a blanket prohibition of pre-existing condition exclusions in the individual market. A consequence of this policy is that it incentivizes people to wait until they are sick to purchase coverage. Thus, the law also included an individual mandate to force all Americans to purchase health insurance or pay a tax penalty." [4]

Opponent's Rebuttal

"Your points are mostly valid and I will not deny the facts. However, why would you want to repeal the law when you can work with the President in order to repair it? The President acknowledges the flaws of the healthcare law and he is willing to work with Republicans and Democrats alike."

Because there would be so much to get rid of and most Americans disapprove of the entire law altogether. Republicans want to add their health care plan to Obamacare, but the president and the Democrats won't allow it.

Sources


1. http://thehill.com...
2. http://swampland.time.com...
3. http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org...
4. http://www.heritage.org...
Debate Round No. 4
WilliamsP

Pro

I will not deny the facts. However, if I were a member of the Congress, I would not want to repeal the law, I would want to shake hands with the President and tell him that I am ready to work with him in order to repair it. Obamacare has flaws, I must admit, but there are successes as well, which nearly all Republicans deny. The duty of the Congress is to work with the President for the betterment of the country. Why can't the Congress work with the President to repair the law? Why is their agenda repealing Obamacare? Obama is focusing on other important issues as well, such as immigration reform, gun control, the minimum wage, among other issues, while the Republicans want to only repeal Obamacare. Please explain this to me. Also, I expect to lose this debate. I am an amateur, so please forgive me if you are annoyed my unintelligent arguments. Thank you.
1Historygenius

Con

My opponent has not really made any proper refutations against my case except what he would personally do. The problem with Obamacare is that the costs outweigh the benefits of it and thus this is a bad law. When there is a strong majority of people who are against it, then the law should not be made. Health care reform is good, but Obamacare is not.

Conclusion

I have succesfully won this debate through more reliable sources, strongers arguments, and my opponent's inability to hold his own case. Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Conservative101 2 years ago
Conservative101
6,286,357 health care cancellations as of Feb 28, 2014.
http://www.foxnews.com...
Posted by Actionsspeak 2 years ago
Actionsspeak
Right now their harming America (ironically in a attempt to help it by taking the senate and the presidential office) which would likely help America, however it's unlikely for either party to control the government and actually help America.
Posted by Actionsspeak 2 years ago
Actionsspeak
The problem for Republicans is if they fix it Obama will look good in the public eye, and the next election may be changed due to the public view of the Obamacare issue.
Posted by WilliamsP 2 years ago
WilliamsP
Are you opposed to Obamacare? If you are, I would be glad to debate the topic with you.
Posted by Jifpop09 2 years ago
Jifpop09
I guess I never really thought of it that way. We should be working together to fix it and not be at war.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Subutai 2 years ago
Subutai
WilliamsP1HistorygeniusTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro never had strong arguments. It was only in round three that he had some sort of organization and used sources, but he reverted back in the final two rounds. Con had well-substantiated arguments that were well organized. Overall, pro did not uphold his BoP that "Obamacare is a great policy..." because con showed more than sufficient evidence for its negation, material which was largely unrefuted, and even untouched by pro.