The Instigator
ethopia619
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
mongeese
Pro (for)
Winning
20 Points

Obelisk would defeat Slifer in a battle

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/12/2010 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,943 times Debate No: 14016
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (4)

 

ethopia619

Con

Okay. You wanted this debate, so, let's begin! I hope that is would be better than the one before.

1. Power

Slifer can gain 50000/50000, according to your comment. I thought it was only 9000/9000. Hmm... This will ultimately defeat Obelisk, whose power is only 4000/4000.
http://yugioh.wikia.com...

I would like to thank mongeese and and the readers.
mongeese

Pro

I would like to thank ethopia619 for challenging me to this debate.

My opponent is correct in that Slifer can reach upwards of 50000 ATK in a duel; in fact, its ATK is only limited by the number of cards the duelist can cram into his deck, thanks to the card Infinite Hand.

However, this only works if a duelist can get 50 cards into his hand, which is a tremendous hassle involving one of the most complex card combinations in all of Duel Monsters. Eventually, the duelist will deck out, as Yugi forced the Mime to do in his final turn [1].

Obelisk, however, only requires two monsters to sacrifice in order to use Soul Energy Max and gain literally infinite ATK [2], which is higher than an ATK limited by the number of cards in one's hand. The two monsters I choose to sacrifice are the Dark Magician and Buster Blader.

In this fight, after achieving Soul Energy Max, Obelisk would utterly destroy Slifer with a single Fist of Fury, winning both the battle and the Duel.

Good luck, ethopia.

1. http://yugioh.wikia.com...
2. http://yugioh.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 1
ethopia619

Con

I'd like to thank mongeese for accepting this debate.

1. Refutes

True, but, when Obelisk is summoned on the field, it automatically loses 2000 points. Slifer can also destroy any face up cards, so it can defeat Obelisk very easily. Slifer is also not effected by effects of other monsters. This means that Slifer could destroy Obelisk.
http://yugioh.wikia.com...

2. Yugioh battles

Yugi Muto destroyed Seto Kaiba. Yugi had a Slifer, while Seto had a Obelisk. Slifer destroyed Obelisk.
http://yugioh.wikia.com...

Thank you.
mongeese

Pro

Thank you, ethopia, for your response.

1. Power

It is true that Slifer's second mouth deducts 2000 points from Obelisk's ATK. However, given that I'm increasing Obelisk's ATK to infinity, 2000 points is completely insignificant. This also assumes that Obelisk was summoned after Slifer, which isn't necessarily true.

My opponent claims that Slifer can destroy any face-up cards; this is false. Slifer's second mouth (aka Thunder Force) operates like this: when Slifer's opponent summons a monster, Slifer blasts that monster with its second mouth, deducting 2000 ATK from its ATK [1]. The monster is only destroyed if it couldn't afford to lose 2000 ATK; however, my chosen monsters Dark Magician [2] and Buster Blader [3] have 2500 and 2600 ATK respectively, and therefore survive with 500 and 600 ATK. In fact, when Yugi summoned Buster Blader against Slifer, and Slifer responded with its Thunder Force, Buster Blader survived, clear evidence that my opponent's claims are false [1:1].

That, or a card like Card Guard [4] could protect the planned sacrifices, preventing Slifer's Thunder Force from working.

The Dark Magician and Buster Blader would survive, and be used as sacrafices for Obelisk's Soul Energy Max, increasing Obelisk's ATK to infinity and allowing it to easily overpower Slifer the Executive Producer.

2. Yu-Gi-Oh battles

It is true that Yugi defeated Seto. However, there are a few reasons why we can't use this as evidence for Slifer being superior to Obelisk:

A. In the duel, Obelisk and Slifer "collide for mutual destruction," defeating each other. This is useful evidence for me as well. After the collision, Yugi won, sure, but he didn't win using Slifer, and Obelisk only made one other brief appearance in the remainder of the Duel.

B. Kaiba actually had the chance to defeat Slifer and win the duel, as he had activated Soul Energy Max in his second turn of Episode 131 [5]. However, he went for the direct route and tried to take out Yugi's Life Points instead, probably expecting Yugi to use some Trap or Spell card to block an attack, but not an effect. Kaiba misplayed, however, because Yugi was able to block the effect with the Kuriboh in his hand.

C. While Kaiba may be great, Yugi is the King of Games. Yugi and Yami together always managed to defeat Kaiba, Egyptian God card or not. (The one loss atop Pegasus' castle doesn't count because Yugi only lost due to Kaiba's suicidal threats; this doesn't reflect his dueling skills at all.) Alone, Yugi even managed to destroy all three Egyptian God cards in one turn [6]. As already stated, Kaiba made a serious misplay to give Yugi the edge. Given the clear superiority Yugi has over Kaiba, Obelisk was handicapped by a weaker duelist when facing Slifer; this handicap was overridden by Obelisk's superiority.

(Small note: Kaiba didn't just have "a" Obelisk; he had the one and only Obelisk the Tormentor. "A" underplays this fact way too much. Same goes for Yugi's Slifer.)

Good luck, ethopia.

[1] http://yugioh.wikia.com...
[2] http://yugioh.wikia.com...
[3] http://yugioh.wikia.com...
[4] http://yugioh.wikia.com...(anime)
[5] http://yugioh.wikia.com...
[6] http://yugioh.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 2
ethopia619

Con

I give thanks to mongeese and the readers.

1. Power

This means that Obelisk needs to sacrifice 5 cards in order to win. This means that you must sacrifice 3 cards in order to summon Obelisk on the field. After the turn, he only needs 2 cards to win. However, before he gets the chance for sacrificing 2 cards on his next turn, Slifer destroys him.
http://yugioh.wikia.com...

2. Battles

Okay. I guess it's not evidence.

3. Summoning

Obelisk cannot destroy Slifer, because they are somewhat equal. In the pyramid example, The Winged Dragon of Ra is on the top, while Obelisk and Slifer are on the base. My opponent has stated about sacrificing 2 cards to beat Slifer. Slifer can sacrifice 2 cards to tie with Obelisk, or sacrifice 3 cards to destroy Obelisk. Slifer can gain infinite attack. It all depends on who places the card down first.
http://yugioh.wikia.com...
mongeese

Pro

I would like to thank ethopia for continuing this debate.

1. Power

Yes, Obelisk would need to sacrifice five monsters. However, for Slifer to defeat Obelisk, three monsters would have to be sacrificed, and five cards would have to be in the duelist's hand. As cards that allow a duelist to draw cards are extremely limited, the Slifer duelist would have to use his hand sparingly, and wouldn't be able to summon monsters easily. The Obelisk duelist, meanwhile, can use Spell and Trap cards like Double Summon and a combination of Card Destruction and Premature Burial or Monster Reborn to summon monsters more quickly, allowing for easy access to more cards. The Obelisk duelist could even use Polymerization to instantly summon a powerful Fusion monster like the Dark Paladin without using a Normal Summon [2], which coulds as two sacrifices for Obelisk instead of one [3], without having to make a Normal Summon; the Slifer duelist cannot, because this would mean using three cards to summon a single monster, and he can't afford to shrink his hand so much.

The use of a Fusion monster would also allow the Obelisk duelist an easy way to activate Soul Energy Max as the only monster on its side of the field, even on the Slifer duelist's turn, to destroy Slifer the instant it attacks. The Trap card Call of the Haunted would revive Dark Paladin, able to survive Slifer's second mouth and previously used as a sacrifice to summon Obelisk. Obelisk would then sacrifice the Dark Paladin with Soul Energy Max (which counts as two sacrifices, a Fusion of two separate monsters [3]), another action that can be performed on the opponent's turn [1]. Obelisk then rips Slifer to shreds with his Fist of Fate.

My opponent's claim that Slifer destroys Obelisk is quite false, as Obelisk can destroy Slifer in the same turn that he appears.

My opponent might claim that Obelisk may not use the power of other cards, that this is a one-on-one fight. If that is the case, then Slifer may not draw power from a duelist's hand, in which case, Slifer has 0 ATK compared to Obelisk's 4000, and would still be defeated.

2. Battles

My opponent concedes this point.

3. Summoning

My opponent evidences the "pyramid example" as why Obelisk cannot destroy Slifer. However, I have already evidenced Obelisk destroying Slifer in the duel between Yugi and Kaiba. Additionally, throughout the duel, Obelisk had many chances to destroy Slifer, but these attempts were prevented by the effects of other cards, like Electromagnetic Turtle, not Slifer [2:5]. Obelisk has even attempted to destroy Ra before [3], and was only prevented from doing so by a Spell card, Class System, not Ra's inherent superiority.

My opponent claims that Slifer can sacrifice two cards to tie with Obelisk, or three cards to defeat Obelisk, but he provides no source but the general description of the God cards. The ability to gain infinite power, however, is exclusive to Obelisk. He continues to claim that Slifer can have infinite ATK, but this is impossible, and he provides to reasoning.

In conclusion, with his almighty infinite attack power, Obelisk the Tormentor banishes Slifer to the Shadow Realm with a single Fist of Fate.

Good luck, ethopia.

1. http://yugioh.wikia.com...
2. http://yugioh.wikia.com...
3. Jaden demonstrates this by Normal Summoning a monster after Fusion Summoning another.
http://yugioh.wikia.com...
The effects of all Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters cards sourced can be found in the provided Yu-Gi-Oh! wiki.
Debate Round No. 3
ethopia619

Con

I'd like to thank mongeese for his rapid responses that leave me stumped a bit.

1. Power

Let's see... You state that Obelisk would very much destroy Slifer with the Monster Reborn, Card Destruction, and more. It is very much true, but you could always use "Reckless Greed" which counters your attack and increases attack. You could also use cards that negate any special summons made by opponents. This makes your Obelisk not appear on the field and that it gives Slifer a turn to destroy Mongeese's life points(let's call us yugioh players).
http://wiki.answers.com...
http://yugioh.wikia.com...

2. Battles and Summonings

I do not exactly concede to the point, and I will use it to do a counter argument. However, let's move on to summoning: Obelisk destroying Slifer in the battle. I know that Yugi is an experienced dueler and wins a lot of his battles, but sometimes he does not know how to use some cards. This goes with Seto Kaiba. In the battle with Seto Kaiba vs. Ishizu Ishtar, Ishizu Ishtar summons "Blast Held by a Tribute" which means that if Obelisk attacks, it self-destructs. Slifer has less disadvantages than Obelisk's disadvantages. Yami Yugi vs. Seto Kaiba. It states that the two god cards: Slifer the Sky Dragon and Obelisk the Tormentor was evenly matched. They were both destroyed by each other. To refute about the tie, read the second source below.
http://yugioh.wikia.com...
http://forums.narutofan.com...

I await my opponent's response and wish him good luck.
mongeese

Pro

Thank you, ethopia, for your response. Now to counter.

1. Power

My opponent cites the card Reckless Greed to allow Slifer to destroy Obelisk. However, he doesn't actually explain its effect in this battle. Reckless Greed allows the Slifer duelist to draw 2 cards [1]. This increases Slifer's ATK by 2000. This still doesn't even compare to the infinite ATK that Obelisk's Soul Energy Max grants him.

My opponent also claims that a Slifer duelist could use cards to prevent Special Summons. He does not list any, so there's no way to refute how these cards could be countered; as the point is not refutable in its current form, merely an empty statement with no proper evidence, it is worthless. The only card I can think of that fits this description is Jowgen the Spiritualist; however, it is weak, easily destroyed by cards such as Fissure, and would probably be used as a sacrifice to Slifer, allowing the Obelisk duelist the chance to use Call of the Haunted and complete the combo I already mentioned.

My opponent finally claims that if Slifer appears on the field before Obelisk, it can wipe out the Obelisk duelist's Life Points. Maybe. However, that wouldn't be a battle between Obelisk the Tormentor and Slifer the Sky Dragon; that would be a Duel between two duelists. Both monsters would have to already be on the field for it to count for this Duel, and once Obelisk is on the field, none of my opponent's strategies would stop Obelisk from utterly destroying Slifer with Soul Energy Max with the instant strategy I described in the last round. Note that if Obelisk managed to be summoned after Slifer, the strategy could still be used on that same turn by substituting a card like Monster Reborn for Call of the Haunted.

2. Battles and Summonings

My opponent claims that Yugi "sometimes does not know how to use some cards." He offers no evidence for this, citing no examples, while I have cited misplays made by Kaiba. I'll cite more: In the Battle City Finals [2], Kaiba managed to get Obelisk in his opening hand; however, Yugi expertly forced Kaiba to waste his powerful Soul Exchange Spell card and seal Obelisk away for three turns. Kaiba then severely underestimated Yugi by trying to take Slifer from Yugi's deck with Lullaby of Obedience, only for Yugi to turn the tables on Kaiba by taking Slifer back with Exchange. Yugi was clearly the more silled duelist, able to summon Slifer before Kaiba even though Kaiba topdecked Obelisk while Yugi had
Slifer buried in the bottom half of his deck.

My opponent cites Kaiba's duel with Ishizu, in which Obelisk would have blown up had he attacked. For one thing, this only shows Kaiba to be even worse of a duelist; he would have lost the Duel had he followed through with his plan, and was saved only by the Millenium Rod, which never aided him when he dueled Yugi [3]. Additionally, Slifer would have fallen in the same way as Obelisk, had Slifer been infected with the Blast instead.

My opponent continues to add that Slifer has fewer disadvantages than Obelisk. This is completely and utterly false. The only reason that any Duelist (besides Yugi in Season 3, destroying Obelisk with a card that would have destroyed any of the Egyptian Gods in such a circumstance) has ever defeated an Egyptian God card without a God card of their own was due to Slifer's inability to control its own second mouth. In the first occurence, Yugi locked Slifer into an infinite loop, forcing the Mime to deck own and lose [1:1]. In the second, Yugi was able to easily predict Slifer's attacks and forced Slifer to attack a reflective barrier formed by Magnet Force a total of seven times [4,2:6]. Slifer has problems, not Obelisk. In addition, Slifer is vulnerable to numerous hand-targetting cards such as Life Shaver, Lightforce Sword, and Time Seal, while Obelisk has no comparable weaknesses at all.

Finally, my opponent points out how Slifer and Obelisk were "evenly matched" in the Battle City Finals Duel between Yugi and Kaiba. However, this was only in one duel, and Obelisk was handicapped by a weaker Duelist, Kaiba, who failed to use Soul Energy Max in the correct way when necessary. Had Kaiba played his cards right, Obelisk would have destroyed Slifer with an unstoppable force. Additionally, Obelisk did defeat Slifer in that clash, although Slifer simultaneously managed to destroy Obelisk.

To conclude, Obelisk still wipes the floor with Slifer.

Good luck in your final round, ethopia.

1. http://yugioh.wikia.com...
2. http://yugioh.wikia.com...
3. http://yugioh.wikia.com...
4. http://yugioh.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 4
ethopia619

Con

Well, let's begin!

> Power

I think we already agreed that Slifer is on 50000/50000. Reckless Greed and Pot of Greed lets Slifer gain 4000/4000 more ATK and DEF. Obelisk the Tormentor, the original one, http://yugioh.wikia.com... , cannot be used in a duel. This ultimately states that since Slifer and Obelisk cannot be used in duels, there is no guaranteed that Obelisk can destroy Slifer. If my opponent states that he uses the "legal" Obelisk the Tormentor and that Slifer is illegal in a duel, I will state that there is now a legal Slifer. Soul Energy Max cannot be used on the "original" Obelisk the Tormentor, thus meaning that Obelisk is now destroyed by Slifer, since Slifer is 50000/50000 and Obelisk is 4000/4000. In the beginning of the debate, I did not state which Obelisk I was referring to, so I will argue that the "original" Obelisk cannot defeat Slifer. This marks that I ultimately win this debate. However, let me go on refuting the points about the "legal" Obelisk the Tormentor. Anti- Meta decks can be used to prevent the opponent's special summoning. The source is: http://yugioh.wikia.com... . I meant that if Slifer is summoned before Obelisk, they are basically both destroyed. This means that Obelisk cannot defeat Slifer in a battle.

> Summoning and Battles

Let's all remember that Yami Yugi basically played the games. He influenced Yugi Muto to draw cards, play them, or set cards. Therefore, Yami is basically dueling, while Yugi is just his body or something. About the Slifer an Obelisk falling, this means that Slifer and Obelisk are equal. I guess it's true that you could predict Slifer's attacks. Let's not forget that Seto Kaiba was actually a pretty good duelist. He won Obelisk the Tormentor, and that's pretty good, right? You did state that Obelisk defeated Slifer and that Slifer managed to destroy Obelisk, but this proves that Obelisk and Slifer are equal.

==> Conclusion

As you can see, Slifer can easily destroy Obelisk the Tormentor (original) and possibly Obelisk the Tormentor (legal). I have proved why Obelisk is equal to Slifer, and how Slifer can destroy Obelisk. I, honestly, like Obelisk the Tormentor (original) because Obelisk looked all tough and had a high ATK and DEF compared to my other cards. However, this does not prove that Obelisk would destroy Slifer. Finally, I would like to give thanks to the readers and especially Mongeese. I would like to debate you in the future. I urge a Con vote and wish you guys, "Happy Holidays!"
mongeese

Pro

I would like to thank ethopia for this enjoyable debate. Now, to finish this!

1. Power

No, we have not agreed that Slifer has 50000 ATK. We've agreed that that is Slifer's potential, as stated in Round 1 and only Round 1. If we're debating by potentials, then Obelisk would clearly win, as its potential ATK is much higher than any multiple of 1000 that Slifer could achieve.

My opponent claims that Reckless Greed and Pot of Greed increase Slifer's ATK by 4000, but the playing of each card decreases Slifer's ATK by 2000, making the net gain 2000 ATK for two cards. Obelisk, however, can match this with two Axes of Despair, reaching the exact same bonus for the same number of cards.

My opponent claims that Obelisk cannot be used in a Duel, even though he's cited duels in which Kaiba played Obelisk rather successfully, and to great and terrifying effect. If my opponent means the Obelisk card in the real-life Trading Card Game, then he should have qualified this in Round 1. Additionally, citing anime evidence clearly indicates that we were talking about the anime the entire time.

My opponent claims that there is now a "legal" Slifer card, but none actually exists, only the current "original" one [1].
If there were a "legal" Slifer, it would probably mirror the effects of the "legal" Egyptian God cards, and those cards, unlike their anime counterparts, are not immune to Obelisk's second variant of Soul Energy Max at all, as the effect is not a targetting effect. Obelisk would be able to destroy Slifer regardless of its ATK.

My opponent claims that an Anti-Meta deck can prevent Special Summoning, but again, he provides no specific cards for me to provide counters for, so this point is null.

He then claims that if Slifer is summoned before Obelisk, both will be destroyed, even though I've already explained how Obelisk can destroy Slifer without any collateral damage the instant either one declares an attack on the other.

2. Summoning and Battles

Note that even though my opponent claims that he was talking about the "original" Obelisk, he now continues to discuss the anime Obelisk. This shows how flawed his argument really is, a last-ditch effort without

My opponent claims that the spirit of the Millennium Puzzle was the one dueling, not Yugi. This is false; the two of them worked as a team, fusing their minds together while dueling, and make internal decisions. Note how Yami Yugi talks with Yami's voice but thinks with Yugi's; this is the result of their minds fusing together. The spirit's thoughts shift to his own voice whenever he isn't with Yugi. Together, they earned the title of King of Games, and together, they defeated Kaiba. Yugi then proved more able than Yami Yugi by defeating him separately in a duel, but that's actually irrelevant to the current debate.

My opponent goes on that because Slifer and Obelisk defeated each other (which doesn't contradict the resolution at all), they are equal. However, this is a non sequitor. Neo-Spacian Glow Moss destroyed the Winged Dragon of Ra in one duel [2], but this doesn't mean that Glow Moss is superior to Ra at all. It's just a result of the card-playing skill of the duelists themselves.

My opponent continues that Kaiba is "actually a pretty good duelist," but he is still inferior to Yugi, as I have pointed out repeatedly. He adds that Kaiba won Obelisk the Tormentor, but Ishizu actually gave it to him [3]; Kaiba never actually defeated an Egyptian God card without one of his own, and even with one, he eventually lost the duel.

My opponent finally concedes that "Obelisk defeated Slifer and that Slifer managed to destroy Obelisk," claiming that this makes the two of them equal. Even though he already concedes the debate in this sentence, I still maintain that Obelisk is superior to Slifer, and have already explained why his current reasoning is flawed.

===> Conclusion

My opponent has no contentions left to play; with an empty hand, Slifer is left powerless on the field. Obelisk, meanwhile, grabs two powerful contentions that support his strength and use them to activate Soul Energy Max, absorbing their power to grant him infinite strength. In a final crushing blow, Obelisk the Tormentor destroys and defeats Slifer the Sky Dragon, ending the battle, the Duel, and the debate.

Thank you, ethopia, for this great debate, and good luck in future debates. Thank you, voters, for reading this debate.

[1] http://yugioh.wikia.com...
[2] http://yugioh.wikia.com...
[3] http://yugioh.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
mongeese
I doubt it. I have a reputation as an Ultimate Team War fan and a knowledgeable Yu-Gi-Oh! fan, so many debaters would know that I wouldn't take a debate like this without a clear plan.
Posted by ethopia619 5 years ago
ethopia619
I guess it's because of the fact that I won the last debate, so I bet the DDO debaters are thinking that I will win again, but that's not exactly true.
Posted by ethopia619 5 years ago
ethopia619
yeah.
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
mongeese
It's a shame that nobody else is actually interested in this debate.
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Cobo
ethopia619mongeeseTied
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