The Instigator
TheMarketLibertarian
Pro (for)
The Contender
DuckEgg84
Con (against)

Odinism is better than Christianity (or any other Abrahamaic faith)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/28/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 634 times Debate No: 105378
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (34)
Votes (0)

 

TheMarketLibertarian

Pro

The resolution is that Odinism, the belief in and worship of the Norse Gods and Goddesses, and belief in the stories and tales of the Norse, is superior to Christianity, or any other Abrahamaic faith from a logical and moral standpoint.
DuckEgg84

Con

I would love to understand how you could believe that the belief in any given religion is superior to believing in any other. That is like saying watching basketball is far superior to watching baseball. It is completely subjective and up to the individual.

I think your going to have a very hard time pleading your case here so I would like you to begin with some proof of this bold statement. I don"t t think you gave me any information to go off of to defend this claim so I will be patiently waiting your response.

And you cannot have a "Belief" in "Faith" it is contradictory. You can believe in truths but not faith otherwise it"s s not faith it"s true.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
TheMarketLibertarian

Pro

To start- not all beliefs are equal, many beliefs are in fact superior to others in accordance with the degree to which they accurately represent reality because the whole point of concepts and models is to accurately represent reality. That said, the belief that 2+2=4 is superior to the belief that 2+2=5, this is not subject to the individual because one is objectively true and the other is objectively false.

This is not only based on objective observations and reality, but objective rules- or logic, even without evidence. For example, the belief that the center of the earth is made or iron is superior to the belief that it is made of cotton candy because the chances that the center of the earth is made of iron are far higher than those that the center of the earth is made of cotton candy.

We do not have absolute evidence that the earths core is made of iron, since we never went there, we aren't even able to get to the lower part of the earths crust, but based on previous concepts based on evidence, we conclude that the earths core is most likely made of iron.

But how does this mean that Odinism is superior to Christianity? In so far as I have seen, there isn't much more proof of Odin than there is of Jesus or Christianity, but nonetheless, it is logically superior because of Occams razor, which states that the simplest answer, or the one which makes the fewest assumptions, is most likely the right one.

To give an example, if I loose my shoes, that I simply put them somewhere else and forgot where, makes fewer assumptions than that little elves came in through my window,m stole them, and ate them for breakfast, and therefore the former is far more likely than the latter.

Since Odinism makes far fewer assumptions than Christianity, and is more in line with objective reality and logic than Christianity, it is objectively superior than Christianity, and I will now proceed to show this.

Christianity consists in the belief in a supreme being, an all powerful wizard in the sky, who created the world and mankind, and who later sacrificed himself to himself so he could forgive mankind of all their evil deeds- most of which are not even in of themselves, but rather were just declared evil by him. And that if you do not believe that he sacrificed himself to himself in some divine circular mind-f*ck, then he has a special place full of fire and burning and brimstone and torture and pain, where he will send you to burn and choke and scream until the end of time: but he loves you.

This creates all sorts of logical problems in of itself, let alone how Jesus doesn't fit the supposed 'messianic prophecies' of the Old Testament. To start, if there is an all powerful benevolent God who guides and controls everything in the universe, why do we have ISIS, Muslims, Nuclear Bobs, the Military Industrial Complex, the Prison Industrial Complex, Genital Mutilation, Yoga, SJW's, Modern Art, and Ice Skaters? Surely a perfect, all powerful God would send a giant asteroid or something to wipe them out?

Secondly, if God is all powerful, why can't he just forgive humanity of all their crimes that he made up? If he can't forgive them without sacrificing himself to himself, he isn't all powerful.

Thirdly, how can he sacrifice himself to himself? He does know it is himself who he is trying to atone for our sins (that he made up) to- and if the penalty for sin is death (another rule he made up), and he didn't really die after being crucified, how is the price paid for? And why is it that the price isn't paid by you upon your death? If one guy fake dying is enough to atone for the 109 billion humans who ever existed, why isn't one guy real dying enough to atone for one guy?

Finally, if God is all loving, why would he send people to hell for not believing in his twisted made up nonsense?

Not to mention the fact that Leviticus says that your sins can be atoned for by sacrificing a lamb, and yet the New Testament says that your made up sins can only be atoned for by praying to some guy who faked his death.

Now why is Odinism superior to Christianity? Because Odinism doesn't have any logical inconsistencies- it isn't faced with the problem of evil because the Gods aren't all powerful or all loving- many of them are very powerful, and may generally be good, but they don't have absolute power or absolute love.

Secondly, if there were a single God with absolute all-loving power and control, you would expect for the universe to behave very orderly and planned- but this is not the case, the universe is instead a very hectic place with numerous opposing forces- far more consistent with polytheism than monotheism.

Thirdly, they don't have the logical inconsistency and idiocy of God sacrificing himself to himself to atone for your sins that he made up. In Odinism, the Gods aren't the source of Morality, and they don't require a sacrifice to atone for sins that they made up, or to forgive you for actual wrong deeds that you did to someone else. If I steal 20$ from you, logically you would assume that I would need your forgiveness, not 'Gods,' and that is why Odin doesn't interfere in that, it's not his job.

Fourthly, Odin doesn't claim to be the Jewish Messiah, so he doesn't have to fit all the prophecies to be real- in fact, he isn't perfect either, so he could claim to be the Jewish Messiah, not fulfil any of the prophecies, and still be real because he can lie.

In Odinism, the Gods didn't create the universe and they don't transcend time- the universe predates the Gods, and came about independent of them, they merely formed alongside the universe, and are very powerful. They also aren't above time or fate, in fact the Gods will eventually be killed in Ragnarok, and come back.

Because of this, there is no logical reason why Odin, Thor, Frigg, Freyja, or Loki cannot exist. They would be very powerful beings, but fundamentally and logically there is no reason why such beings could not exist. However, and invisible intangible sky wizard who has no physical form and is yet able to affect the physical realm, and create something from nothing, is very illogical, violates so many natural laws that I cannot even count them, and makes no sense.

Therefore, Odinism is superior to Christianity.
DuckEgg84

Con

I would like to start this round by saying if you are going to quote anybody please give credit to the source, yours being George Carlin. Who I happen to agree with. Going forward.

2+2=5 (Odinisim)
2+2=10 (Insert Abrahamic religion here)

Both answers are wrong just because it seems that 2+2=5 is closer to the answer does not make it any less wrong. Objectively speaking neither answer is true and both are equally incorrect. I am not going to defend Christianity or any other religion. What I am trying to express is that neither are superior to each other. Saying that the Odinism belief is more believable does not make it superior by any stretch of the imagination, it just makes it different.

I think we can agree that both works of fiction are equally interesting in there own ways. But saying that Odinism is Superior is a completely subjective. There is no reason to believe that Odinism is more superior simply because it is less far fetched.

Is The Walking Dead more superior to Star Wars because one takes place here on earth with actual humans whereas Star Wars takes place in outter space with Aliens from other planets. Absolutely not, neither is more true than the other. Both are works of fiction and would never exist in the real world as we know it.

Now all of your examples are just poppy cock nobody is insisting that the core of earth is cotton candy just as we are not suggesting (I truly hope you are not) that Thors hammer is only able to be wielded by Thor. How is this any more believable that Jesus rising from the dead. In both instances neither is a possiblilty and completely made up and fake. You cannot just choose which is more unbelievable. that would be subjective. Now I am not an expert in the world of Odinisim and its fictional characters (which is what they are) but knowing this I cannot credit it and more superiority over any other work of fiction.

Now in most of your argument you give a lot of examples of what Christianity can, cannot and should be able to do. I do not debate the fact that a lot of questions arise when looking at both of these religions. And I don't think I need to argue for the superiority of any Abrahamic religion but dispute the superiority of Odinism.

So to finish this portion other then your subjective idea that Odinism is more logical you show no proof that it is superior. I cannot prove that it is not superior or less superior because there is none. and without any proof of this I donot believe we can conclude that either is indeed superior but both being equally subjective to opinion.
Debate Round No. 2
TheMarketLibertarian

Pro

My opponent claims that Odinism isn't logically superior to Christianity because they're both baseless beliefs, and that may be true, but I was not arguing that Odinism is true, but that is is logically superior than Christianity.

Something being superior or more sound than something else does not mean it has to be completely true or completely stable, or even remotely true or remotely stable- since superior is by definition relative, Odinism only needs to be less irrational than Christianity to be superior to it.

For example, if I say that Rihanna's music sounds worse than a cat being castrated with a rusty pair of lawn clippers, I do not need to prove that a cat being castrated with a rusty pair of lawn clippers sounds good, but only that Rihanna sounds worse. This was clear from the resolution in Round 1:
"The resolution is that Odinism, the belief in and worship of the Norse Gods and Goddesses, and belief in the stories and tales of the Norse, is superior to Christianity, or any other Abrahamaic faith from a logical and moral standpoint."

This also means that I have to prove that Odinism is superior to Christianity from a moral standpoint, something which I do not believe I have proven in Round 2, so I will not proceed to prove it.

Morals should be defined as the distinction between given actions as inherently superior or inferior to others. To claim that there is no objective truth, that the belief in objective morality is irrational, and therefore we should not believe in it or act as though it is valid, is to say that rational actions are inherently superior to irrational actions, and that what is logical is inherently desirable, and what is illogical is inherently undesirable. In other words, that there is an objective standard with which you can measure human behavior that we should live by, thereby defeating that entire argument.

That said, the Norse Gods are far more moral than the Christian God, even despite not being supposedly perfect like the Christian God. One need only read the bible to see this, because in the bible God (according to Christian mythology):
1. Drowned billions of innocent people, including children and babies who couldn't have done anything to deserve it.
2. Ordered the Jews to mutilate their children's genitals
3. Told the Jews to stone people to death for working on Saturday or being gay.
4. Killed every firstborn son of the Egyptians (despite saying in Ezekiel chapter 21 that children shouldn't be punished for the sins of their parents)

Odin, on the other hand, never did any of that.

DuckEgg84

Con

Sorry for the delay...

The Seven Heavenly Virtues:
Chastity, Abstinence, Liberality, Diligence, Patience, Kindness, Humility

The Seven Deadly Sins:
Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, Pride

Ten Commandments List
You shall have no other gods before Me, You shall make no idols, You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, Keep the Sabbath day holy, Honor your father and your mother, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor, You shall not covet.

Ok, So your claim is that because The Bible (Mostly the Old Testament) Has Stories in it that can be considered immoral, that Odinism is a superior moral bench mark. Now I will not dispute the fact that there are heinous acts that take place in these books. But as you can see above I have listed the 7 Deadly Sins, The 7 Heavenly Virtues and the 10 Commandments that are a guide for any Christian or human to live a moral life. NOT the examples that you gave in the last round.

Again Your examples are ridiculous, I don't think you will find a Priest or Clergyman anywhere in the world who will condone the mutilation to the genitals of Jewish children, Drown Billions of innocent people, Kill every first born of Egyptian descent or Stone people for working on Saturday or being gay. (Although the Christian belief does believe being gay a sin I have to hold that as morally subjective to today's Zeitgeist. But they have come a long way.) So Its easy to see that to any half competent person who doesn't take these stories Literal will see them for what they are. STORIES.

These Lists above, if followed will cause you to lead a moral life by anybodies standard. I have to admit not all of the Sins, Virtues and Commandment are needed to live a moral life, but nonetheless if followed one would be considered a moral and good person.

There are of course areas of the bible that if followed word by word would be considered evil by today's standards. But I think it is very important realize that this book was not written recently and allot of the views were not considered immoral by standards of the time. I also have to believe that the MASS MAJORITY of people today do not take the bible literal, yes of course there are a few that do but like @FollowerofChrist1955 said " You cant fix Stupid."

So if you you ask me which faith shows you how to live a more morally fulfilled life. without cherry picking what verses and sections you want to quote then I have to say it is with out a doubt Christianity. There are Billions of Christians in the world living very good lives doing wonderful thing everyday. If the faith caused as much evil as you portrayed I think life as we know it would be allot different then it is today. I don't know how many people are living the way of Odin and if they were I'm not sure how much good they're doing.

But like I said in the last round I don't believe we can conclude that either is indeed superior but both being equally subjective to opinion. and with that I cannot say for certain that Odinism is Superior which is exactly what your claiming.
Debate Round No. 3
TheMarketLibertarian

Pro

My opponent claims that Odinism is not morally superior to Christianity because Modern Christians are hypocrites about their religion, and don't engage in the kind of practices that they used to- like killing pagans, burning witches, or stoning gay people to death.
However, this doesn't change the religion itself- all it means is that Modern Christians aren't abiding by their religion anymore: Modern Christians cherry picking the bible to make it into some lovey-duvey handbook for new age hipsters doesn't make the book itself morally or logically any different- to say that it does is completely idiotic.

Furthermore, it's not like Modern Christians are just these wonderful moral people because of Christianity- but rather inspite of it. Because even after hundreds of years of reformation, Christians are still blowing up abortion clinics and killing gay people- it's far worse in the Muslim World because Islam never had a reformation, but you don't find Atheists doing that sh*t in the name of 'there is no God.'

Many Christians may be good people, but we're not talking about the morality of most Christians today, we are talking about the morality of the bible itself- and it still says to kill gay people, kill people who work on the Sabbath, and kill people of other religions. So with that out of the way, let's talk about the moral standards of these two belief systems, starting with Odinism.

The values of Odinism as set up in the 9 noble virtues are entirely logical precepts that do have to do with moral behavior, they are: courage, truth, honour, fidelity, discipline, hospitality, self reliance, industriousness, and perserverence. Odinists are encouraged to think for themselves, stand for for what they believe is right, act honourably, and not to mooch on others.

On the other hand, most of the 'morals' in the bible are just useless rules made up by primitive dimwits- rules like Leviticus 19:27:
"Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."
Or Deuteronomy 22:11:
"Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together."
Or Deuteronomy 14:8:
"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase."
Or Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Or Leviticus 19:28:
"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."

As a matter of fact, there are 613 commandments in the bible, and most of them are trivial bullsh*t rules that don't deal with anything of consequence- except for a few verses like Numbers 31:17-18:
"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
Or Deuteronomy 20:17:
"But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee."

So let me get this straight- voluntarily having sex with another adult of the same gender is an evil sin deserving of eternal damnation, but raping kids who are incapable of consent- that's Ok.
An adult voluntarily choosing to get a tattoo- that's a heinous crime, but mutilating a children's genitals and disfiguring him for life without his consent- that's just fine and dandy.

To sum this up- Odinism values actual virtues that actually have to do with moral or immoral behavior, whereas the bible is just an ancient book of desert fairy tales made by and for primitive dimwits, that espouses rules and values that not only have nothing to do with good morals or ethical conduct, but actually advocate heinous conduct and backwards morals, completely incompatible with civilization. Of course most Christians don't engage in these practices any more, but Christians not abiding by their own evil book does not change the book itself.

I'd like to finish this point off with a quote from Thomas Paine:
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel." - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, Part 1 Section 4


My opponent claims that 'There are Billions of Christians in the world living very good lives doing wonderful thing everyday. If the faith caused as much evil as you portrayed I think life as we know it would be allot different then it is today. I don't know how many people are living the way of Odin and if they were I'm not sure how much good they're doing.'

Just because most Christians are living moral lives doesn't change the nature of Christianity itself- most neonazis don't want to kill Jews, and many of them manage to live moral lives, but that doesn't mean that Nazism isn't evil. The resolution of this debate is that Odinism is logically and morally superior to Christianity, not that Pagans are more logical and moral than Christians, although they are.

Furthermore- do you know why there aren't very many people following Odinism anymore- Europe was originally pagan after all. I'll tell you why- because Constantine and Charlemagne ran around Europe slaughtering them and forcing them to join the church- that's why.

It was the Catholic Church, not the Odin Brotherhood, that sponsored the rise of fascism in Europe in the 20th Century, Bush Jr. claimed that Jesus told him to invade Iraq, not Odin, and it was a Christian nut who blew up those abortion clinics in Boston in December of 1994, not a pagan.

Finally- if this debate were about what the best flavor of ice cream is, then my opponent would be able to claim that 'I don't believe we can conclude that either is indeed superior but both being equally subjective to opinion,' but this isn't a debate about ice cream, is it? This is a debate about two religious belief systems, both of which claim that they are correct and that the other is false.

Since this debate was about which religion was more logical and moral, there is no room for opinion here. If I claimed that I like Odinism better than Christianity, that would be opinion, but I didn't. I claimed that Odinism is logically and morally superior to Christianity, and I believe that I have sufficiently demonstrated that.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
34 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 6 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
And in that same section:
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.
We scarcely meet with anything, a few phrases excepted, but what deserves either our abhorrence or our contempt, till we come to the miscellaneous parts of the Bible."

I remained a Deist for some time, basing my belief on a form of the Cosmological argument- until I realized that it is very faulty.
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 6 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
It's a few Holocaust survivors on my mothers side who came over to America.

I left Christianity because an Orthodox Jew refuted the New Testament in a debate I had with him, the points that made me deny the New Testament were that:
1. According to Christianity, Jesus died to atone for the sins of humanity, but Ezekiel Chapter 21 and Deuteronomy 24:16 say that no one should be put to death for the sins of another, and that 'the one who sins will die.
2. Jesus did not fulfil any of the 'messianic prophecies' of the Old Testament, and all of the claimed 'prophecies' that he supposedly 'fulfilled' were either made up or taken out of context.

After that I identified as Religiously Jewish, and started to read the Tanakh. Upon reading it I realized that it was full of contradictions, barbarity, savagery, and absurdity. As Penn Jillette once said, reading the bible will make you an atheist quicker than any other book.
What solidified my deistic position was reading Thomas Paine's 'The Age of Reason,' which completely eviscerated organized religion. My favorite parts:
"Revelation is a communication of something which the person to whom that thing is revealed did not know before. For if I have done a thing, or seen it done, it needs no revelation to tell me I have done it, or seen it, nor to enable me to tell it, or to write it.
Revelation, therefore, cannot be applied to anything done upon earth, of which man himself is the actor or the witness; and consequently all the historical and anecdotal parts of the Bible, which is almost the whole of it, is not within the meaning and compass of the word revelation, and, therefore, is not the word of God.
When we contemplate the immensity of that Being who directs and governs the incomprehensible WHOLE, of which the utmost ken of human sight can discover but a part, we ought to feel shame at calling such paltry stories the word of God." - Part 1 Section 4
Posted by judaism 6 months ago
judaism
That's wonderful news to me that you have Jewish ancestry. . . if you convert (unless its through your mother's mother's), then you're a Jew 100%.

I wonder, which thought, phrase, or idea made you leave both faiths? Was it anything in particular, or just the generality of it all?

Also, how long did you stay in the Jewish faith if you don't mind me asking?
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 6 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
This debate primarily addressed Christianity, Judaism is an entirely different subject
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 6 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
I was raised a Christian, although I have Jewish heritage. After that I got into a debate with some Jewish guy about Jesus being the Messiah and lost, so I identified with Judaism for a while, until I abandoned it for deism, then atheism.

It sounds complicated, but essentially I was stripped of each layer of religion and superstition until there was nothing left to abandon.
Posted by judaism 6 months ago
judaism
You say you used to be a Christian, you used to be a Jew, what haven't you been? And why go about converting to everything unless you never did it officially to begin with? If you're curious about the world's faiths, just get a book, there's no need running around everywhere!

And why such stark hatred towards a G-d you don't even believe in the first place?
Posted by judaism 6 months ago
judaism
Alright, I wasn't going to comment here, but now I am. Judaism, my faith, never said if you don't convert, you're going to hell. Are you even Jewish? Did you have a Jewish upbringing? If so, then I'm assuming you didn't listen much at yeshiva because the Talmud clearly states that all people have a share in the World to Come as long as they led decent lives. In fact, Rashi said Christians and Muslims weren't even pagans since they worshiped a similar G-d!

I will accept your debate soon, I need some time however *before* accepting (hint: at least a few days because that's the time you've granted me) so that I can get my arguments together because you won't be friendly to the Jewish faith.

Lastly, I felt that this debate was sort of worthless to begin with. It is very silly, in my opinion, to compare the Christian faith with a pagan one. You might as well compare Christopher Hitchens to Bill Gates as they too have nothing in common!

Oh, and by the way, the Oral Torah isn't just *a* book, its volumes upon volumes upon volumes and is some of the best and most beautiful literature we have.

As to why I'm writing at 2 in the morning. . . who knows!
Posted by XxFoxlordxX 7 months ago
XxFoxlordxX
If you've had the misfortune to meet backwardseden, if you made him a Christian; he'd be followerofchrist1995
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 7 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
The Muslims warned me I'm going to hell if I don't worship their Muhamad nut, and the Jews warned me that I'd go to Gehenna if I don't accept their Oral Torah book- your bullsh*t fairy tales bear the same weight as theirs.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 7 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
TheMarketLibertarian;
You have been warned that your going to Hell, my part is complete!
Let it be as you will.
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