The Instigator
Pathos
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Zetsubou
Con (against)
Winning
30 Points

Old Testament Prophecy does not predict Jesus Christ

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Zetsubou
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/31/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 11,324 times Debate No: 11597
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (28)
Votes (5)

 

Pathos

Pro

Many Christians state that the Old Testament predicts the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus in the New Testament. I challenge my opponent to show individual specific verses where the prophecy is clearly stated and fulfilled. My criteria is that the verses cited must clearly and directly predict the occurrence with no subjective interpretation needed. For example, if there is an Old Testament Verse that states "The Temple of Solomon will be rebuilt", the "Temple of Solomon" means a structure that is identified as a temple.
Zetsubou

Con

Hellos, and welcome to Debate.org, hope you have a nice and long stay with us here.

To start my argument I will list all the Prophecy that Jesus has and is yet to fulfill. For Round One I must see which of the Prophecies Jesus hasn't fulfilled according to Pro. Below is a list, Pro is free to add to the List but must cite references from an internationally accepted Bible or Torah.

Born of a virgin.
A descendant of Abraham.
Of the tribe of Judah.
Of the house of David.
Born in Bethlehem.
Taken to Egypt.
Herod�s killing of the infants.
Anointed by the Holy Spirit.
Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist).
Would perform miracles.
Would preach good news.
Would minister in Galilee.
Would cleanse the Temple.
Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey.
Would be rejected by Jews.

Die a humiliating death, involving:

Rejection,
Betrayal, by a friend
Sold for 30 pieces of silver,
Silence before His accusers,
Being mocked,
Beaten,
Spit upon,
Piercing His hands and feet,
Being crucified with thieves,
Praying for His persecutors,
Piercing His side,
Given gall and vinegar to drink,
No broken bones,
Buried in a rich man's tomb,
Casting lots for His garments,

Would rise from the dead!!
Ascend into Heaven.
Would sit down at the right hand of God.

>>Contention(s)<<
-Of the Temple of Solomon.

You see, the story of the Messiah isn't finished[Revelations], Jesus will return from the dead on the Day of Judgment and rebuild the 3rd Temple of Solomon[Revelations]. It is also worth noting that the Second temple of Jerusalem was destroyed after the death of Jesus[Approx 27-40AD], the temple was destroyed in the years after the First Jewish Roman war, in the Siege of Jerusalem[70AD]. The Temple was destroyed in the Sack of Jerusalem a important part of Jewish History.[ http://en.wikipedia.org...(70)] et [http://www.rjgeib.com...]

I await Pro's full argument in Round 2.
Debate Round No. 1
Pathos

Pro

Thanks for accepting the debate and for the warm greetings.

In response to the argument presented by Con, I fear that I may have inadequately stated the intention of this debate. I was hoping that Con would cite specific verses that accurately predicted each of the prophecies listed. From this position, Con could argue that the Old Testament predicts the events of the New Testament and that the two Covenants are indeed consistent with one another.

My motive and goal was to analyze these specific verses provided by Con to see if first they meet the actual criteria for being a prophecy, and second, if they accurately predict the events of the New Testament thus making them a fulfilled prophecy. I, representing the Pro side of the argument will show that the provided verses were descriptions of the relative regional conflicts and tribal ambitions of the espoused authors.

I wished for Con to present the verses he identified as meeting the above criteria so that the audience would not feel as if I was picking and choosing verses with my stated motive in mind. In other words, I did not want the audience to think I was "stacking the deck" or presenting literature that was discriminating in my favor.

Independent of my personal belief or non-belief, I will assume that the Old Testament is historically accurate, and that the characters, events and authors are all real. Both natural and supernatural events are assumed factual accounts. This assumption does not imply that the Con argument is correct by default. To be clear, an acceptance of the OT does not equate to an acceptance of birth, death and resurrection as fulfilled prophecy in itself. Con must provide a bridge between the two covenants by citing and explaining verse that can be indentified without subjective metaphorical meanings. Most importantly the described passages must remain valid after critical analysis. I repeat, (for possibly the third time), my analysis will be in regards to relative regional conflict at the time of authorship, and the implied ambitions of the espoused authors.

To my dismay, Con has only listed prophecies but no accompanying verses. I will take partial responsibility for this as I may not have been clear in my opening statement. I hope to have resolved this miscommunication in this round. With respect and apology, I request that Con provide the specific verses that correspond with each described prophecy he has listed. I am not interested in talking about prophecies yet to be fulfilled and described in the NT, as that is beyond the scope of my argument here (doesn't mean I will not accept challenge to another debate where such is discussed). In closing, please feel free to post questions and comments to my profile or to comments section. I thank you in advance for your response and patience, as I am a Noob. (New guy, inexperienced, novice)
For the sake of clarity I will discuss my criteria for a fulfilled prophecy. This is the criteria that Con has to meet to add validity to his argument.

Fulfilled Prophecy:
1.The prophecy must be properly interpreted.
2.The prophecy must be made before the event it fulfills.
3.The prophecy must be far enough in advance of the event to make educated guesswork impossible.
4.The event which fulfills the prophecy must have actually happened.
5.The prophecy must not be fulfilled as a direct consequence of the prophecy itself existing.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org...
Zetsubou

Con

>>Pro, has left Argument's via the Comment's page.<<
==========================================================================
>>Born of a Virgin
"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins. All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel which means, "God with us."
Matthew 1:21-23

>>A decedent of Abraham
"A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
and Josiah the father of Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ."
Matthew 1:1-17

>>From Bethlehem
"So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn."
Luke 2:4-7

>>Of the Tribe of Judah
See Descendant of Abraham section and...

"For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests."
Hebrews 7:14

>>Herod's Killing of the infants
"When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
"A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."
Matthew 2:16-18

Note: Bethlehem and it's and vicinity. Ramah would be modern day Er-Ram, about 8 km north of Jerusalem[http://en.wikipedia.org...]
The whole area was in Herod's control, Bethlehem and Ramah are about 15Km apart, see map.
http://ianaloni.files.wordpress.com...

>>Sold for 30 pieces
"Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins."
Matthew 26:14-15

===========================================================================

All Bible quotes are from http://www.biblegateway.com... New international Version

Current arguments Negated, Thank you.
Debate Round No. 2
Pathos

Pro

Born of a Virgin
It is easy to see how modern day Christians would read Isaiah 7:14 and believe that as a stand alone verse it predicts the coming birth of Jesus. Examine Isaiah 7 completely and we find that it is a dialogue about the war between the Jews and the warring kingdoms. In which case Isaiah (presumably) is comforting Ahaz. Isaiah is clearly expecting immediate deliverance and victory during the wars he speaks of. In Isaiah 7:8 he states that within 65 years Ephraim will be broken. The book of Isaiah was authored during the rein of Cyrus the Great and then added to during the Babylonian Empire. This is several hundred years before the espoused birth of Jesus. It would be simple for Matthew or whoever wrote the book of Matthew, who did not witness the virgin birth for himself to have merely added it to be consistent with the OT during his authorship of the NT.

Criteria 1 and 4 are not met.

A Decent of Abraham:
"Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."
I would like to draw attention to the fact that this is Joseph's Lineage being used. Joseph was not the paternal father of Jesus and it is impossible for him to be as she was a Virgin. If Jesus shares no blood relation with Joseph how can you logically claim lineage. Furthermore, according to your post Jacob is the grandfather of Jesus. In Luke it is Eli, both cannot be right. You must claim that one is of Joseph and one is of Mary.

From Bethlehem / Herod / Slaughter of innocents:
Mary and Joseph were traveling to Bethlehem to be counted in a census ordered by Augustus. Quirinius was the Roman governor of Syria. This is interesting because Quirinius did not conduct this census until 6/7CE. That would make the birth of Jesus about 10 years removed from the death of Herod. Luke2:1-3
Why would two residents of Nazarene travel to Bethlehem to take part in a nonexistent census? Luke was wrong on both counts! They cannot logically be in Bethlehem at the time of Herod's reign if Herod is dead at the time of the census.

Sold for 30 pieces-Zechariah 11:13
After reading this verse it seems to be a description of a simple offering from with the author felt was a sizable sum of money. As stated, and after reading Zechariah 11 in its entirety, it is a fable about a Shepard. Had is said, the Son of God will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, your point may have had some validity. Transferring this verse as a predicting prophecy about Judas is subjective.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Bible KJV
Zetsubou

Con

This statement by Pro will be the basis for my contentions for this round:

"Independent of my personal belief or non-belief, I will assume that the Old Testament is historically accurate, and that the characters, events and authors are all real. Both natural and supernatural events are assumed factual accounts."

Unless this was a major mistake in Pro's argument, I will take it as a truth. Pro believes that the Old Testament is historically accurate.

Assuming everything my opponent says as correct, that these Old Testament prophecies are unclear, I don't need them. The Messiah has to fulfill all the prophecies given. What my opponent has just done in his previous round is disproved the parts of the prophecy, Jesus never had to fulfill them if they're wrong. So regardless of what I think, Thank you! If this was a Mistake that Pro wants to correct if he does so now it would have some effect on his conduct points as it disagrees with the title. Note that this is his first debate so leniency is required.

>>>>The only argument(s) I have to address are:

>>A Decent of Abraham
In ancient Israel the certainty of blood relations was rare(No blood tests or a grantee of faithfulness). What makes someone a son of another is who he was raised under and whose name he takes. This is s inconsistency Augustine of Hippo addressed:
i)That Joseph had two fathers—one natural and one legal—as a result of a levirate marriage involving uterine brothers.
ii)That Luke's genealogy is actually through Mary rather than her husband Joseph.
iii)That Matthew's genealogy is actually through Mary rather than her husband Joseph.

>>From Bethlehem/Herod/Slaughter of innocents
Do you know who the successor of Herod the great is? It's is Herod Archelaus, the ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Edom from 4 BC to 6 AD, son of Herod the Great. His rule is consistent with the birth of Jesus Christ. Basically you got the wrong Herod.

"In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) And everyone went to his own town to register. So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn."
Luke 2:1-6
http://www.biblegateway.com...

It never explicitly says to Herod in any other book except in the Gospel of Matthew, and even then it only refers to him as King/Lord/Ethnarch Herod, so there was no direction to what Herod it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
Pathos

Pro

Pathos forfeited this round.
Zetsubou

Con

It's a shame almost my debates have a forfeit.

I believe all my opponents arguments have been contented. All arguments are extended.
Debate Round No. 4
Pathos

Pro

Pathos forfeited this round.
Zetsubou

Con

No uncontended arguments. Vote Con.

Here's the full prophecy with verses included:

Born of a virgin [Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23]
A descendant of Abraham [Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16]
Of the tribe of Judah [Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14]
Of the house of David [2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1]
Born in Bethlehem [Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7]
Taken to Egypt [Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15]
Herod�s killing of the infants [Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18]
Anointed by the Holy Spirit [Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17]
Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) [Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3]
Would perform miracles [Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35]
Would preach good news [Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21]
Would minister in Galilee [Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16]
Would cleanse the Temple [Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13]
Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem [Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11]
Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey [Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9]
Would be rejected by Jews [Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7]
Die a humiliating death [Psalm 22; Isaiah 53] involving:
-rejection [Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48]
-betrayal by a friend [Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18]
-sold for 30 pieces of silver [Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15]
-silence before His accusers [Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14]
-being mocked [Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31]
-beaten [Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26]
-spit upon [Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30]
-piercing His hands and feet [Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31]
-being crucified with thieves [Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38]
-praying for His persecutors [Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34]
-piercing His side [Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34]
-given gall and vinegar to drink [Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36]
-no broken bones [Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36]
-buried in a rich man's tomb [Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60]
-casting lots for His garments [Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24]
Would rise from the dead!! [Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31]
Ascend into Heaven [Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9]
Would sit down at the right hand of God [Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3]
Debate Round No. 5
28 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Koopin 7 years ago
Koopin
Lol at Pwnage.
Posted by Zetsubou 7 years ago
Zetsubou
Thank you guys, god bless.
Posted by sherlockmethod 7 years ago
sherlockmethod
Forfeits=7 pts for me in most cases; this is one of those cases.
Posted by Puck 7 years ago
Puck
Kinda misses the fact that some NT writers were actively writing in regards to those prophecies and not from a historical perspective. :P
Posted by Zetsubou 7 years ago
Zetsubou
Prove it so Mr.Pipes.
Posted by ThePipes 7 years ago
ThePipes
There were two Herods. Herod the Great and Herod the Great's son. The Herod in Chapter 2 of Matthew is in fact Herod the Great. He died around 4 B.C., which places Jesus' birth around 4 B.C. or earlier. Most scholars place the birth around 6 B.C.
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 7 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
This debate has been very dissapointing.
Posted by Zetsubou 7 years ago
Zetsubou
Your kinda helping my argument...
Posted by Zetsubou 7 years ago
Zetsubou
If condescending is stating the fact then fine.
Posted by Zetsubou 7 years ago
Zetsubou
Not for humor just annoyed.
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innomen
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