The Instigator
imabench
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
Shinigami13
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Once and for all, 9/11 was a terrorist attack, not a conspiracy

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
imabench
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/20/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,409 times Debate No: 18897
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (1)

 

imabench

Pro

Lets settle this once and for all....
I will be arguing that the attacks of 9/11/2001 were carried out by a group of Islamic extremist terrorists from the network known as Al-Qaeda and not by the US government

He/She who accepts this debate will be arguing why they think that the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy by the US government

5 rounds, max 8000 character limit, get ready to go all out
Shinigami13

Con

I will accept this debate, mainly because fact there are too many discrepancies in the 9/11 attacks to have been not been orchestrated in some way by the government.

This is my first debate, so forgive me if I do not know the format properly. I believe other than an opening argument, I am not supposed to start rattling off arguments, so begin.
Debate Round No. 1
imabench

Pro

On September 11th 2001, four civilian airplanes were hijacked and turned into giant missiles that were used to attack the United States of America. Two of them hit the North and South towers of the world trade center, One destined for the White House instead plowed into part of the Pentagon, and another destined for Congress was brought down in an empty field after passengers who learned of what was going on decided to resist.

The 19 passengers who hijacked the airplanes were identified and revealed to have connections to Al-Qaeda, a terrorist organization that functions in the Middle East and at the time was run by Osama Bin Laden. Osama Bin Laden had long been on a terrorist watch list after he claimed responsibility for the bombings of 2 US embassies and an attack on the USS Cole, A US Naval warship.

Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attacks and then declared holy war on the United States. However many people refused to believe that an obscure terrorist organization from the middle east could have carried out the deadliest surprise attack on American Soil, and many conspiracy theorists have claimed that the events of 9/11 were planned by the US government.

The Con may now state his argument
Shinigami13

Con

There are far too many things that are suspicious about 9/11 to have been simply orchestrated by a terrorist organization. Discrepancies include,

1.) Inside traders and Put Options

Put options are bets on if a stock will go down. Right before 9/11 was carried out, massive amounts of put options were used. For example, United Airlines. The Thursday before the attack, 2,000 contracts betting the stock would go down were purchased, which is 90x the amount usually purchased in three weeks. That being said, when factoring that it took place on one day, by multiplying 21 by 90, that 1890x the amount usually purchased in one day. After the attack, when the stock markets reopened again, the price of United Stock dropped, while the price of the contracts soared. To be specific, before the attack, the contracts were worth $180,000. After the attack, the value jumped to 2.4 million. Almost the exact same thing happened to American Airlines. A $337,000 trade on Monday jumped to 1.8 million. There was also an extraordinarily high amount of bets against Morgan Stanley and Marsh & McLennan, two of the World Trade Center's biggest tenants. If it was a coincidence, as attested by Antonio Mora of ABC, "This would be of the most extraordinary coincidences in the history of mankind if this was a coincidence."

2.) The Pentagon Crash

The crash site at the Pentagon was 65 x 73 ft. And the damage was far too little to have been caused by the massive jet. And how can a plane that can bring down the World Trade Center fail to singe a book, destroy a computer, or burn a desk? That, along with the fact that the area of the Pentagon that was hit was vacant due to renovations is highly suspicious.

3.) Faked Bin Laden Tapes

The tape released of Bin Laden confessing to 9/11 is of very poor quality, and contradicts what the FBI maintains about Osama. One, the FBI says that he is left-handed, while in the tape, he writes with his right hand. Furthermore, the Bin Laden in the tape, even in the poor quality, can be seen to look nothing like the pictures released of Bin Laden. Furthermore, also according to the FBI, "Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world." Instrestingly, despite the fact that he is the symbol of 9/11, our FBI doesn't specify him being wanted for 9/11.

4.) Other Inconsistencies

Why did the news agencies report that WTC 7 collapsed almost 1/2 hour before it did, even though it was not hit by a plane, only had a few floors on fire, and gave no indication that it was in any serious danger?

Why do we still believe the tale of the 19 hijackers when so many of the accused hijackers showed up ALIVE within days? And why do we still believe the fable of the 19 hijackers when the FBI admitted that they are not sure about either the identity of the hijackers or if there were any hijackers at all?

Why was WTC 7 rebuilt, reopened and reoccupied with no press attention? Wouldn't this be an important victory in American resolve and perseverance?

Why were the NORAD rules changed for the first time several weeks prior to 9/11, taking responsibility/authority for shooting down hijacked planes away from NORAD military command for the first time in its history, and given to a civilian, Donald Rumsfeld, and then returned to NORAD the day after 9/11?

Why would hijackers planning on attacking NY and Washington DC drive from Florida, pass both DC and NY, and drive all the way to Maine and hinge this huge operation on a connecting flight from Maine to Boston, where we are told they hijacked their plane? Why wouldn't they fly out of any of the airports that are visible from their targets, like Newark, La Guardia or JFK...or even some of the smaller local airports that would have given them a clear easy path to their target and reduce the amount of time that our air defense systems would have to stop them?

Why did George W. Bush's Secret Service detail not rush the president to safety when it was evident that the nation was under attack? If the nation was under attack, and they did not know the scope of the attack, and the president's location was known, how did they not worry about being attacked in Florida?. Why did they act as if they knew that there was no threat? And why, when our nation was under attack, did the president not rush into action? If you say he was concerned about upsetting the children, you are the ultimate apologist. He could have told them that his mommy was on the phone and he had to see what she wanted. Our county was supposedly being attacked and he/they waited 20 minutes before they moved. This is the smoking gun of smoking guns.

Why did the FBI never list Osama bin Laden as being wanted for 9/11? Actually, we know this one...because they admitted that they had no evidence linking him to the event.

Why was their molten metal flowing under the wreckage of the WTC for months? No jet fuel can melt metal, and nothing explainable could melt that much metal and keep it hot enough to remain molten for a month.

How did a passport of one of the so called hijackers make it through the huge fireball and end up on the street?

Why have photos from the 80+ cameras confiscated at the Pentagon never been released?

Why did the airplane that supposedly crashed at Shanksville vaporize so that nothing remained, not bodies, not luggage, not metal, - nothing - for the first time in aviation history? However, we are told that even though the plane vaporized at Shanksville, a hand-written note from a hijacker was found.

http://newsone.com...

http://tvnewslies.org...

http://www.fbi.gov...
Debate Round No. 2
imabench

Pro

1) Inside traders?
The reason that there was an extraordinary amount of betting against United Airlines was because of a labor contract negotiation that collapsed. This would mean that many pilots and employees would go on strike costing the airline a crapload of money, so It would make sense that people would bet against an airline if they thought it would lose millions of dollars in the next few weeks. After the attacks the stocks went down? No duh they would. If 4 passenger airliners were hijacked and crashed then that would scare the crap out of people into NOT FLYING. The number of people who lew on airplanes from August to September of 2001 dropped almost by half which cost airlines a ton of money because they just lost half of their source of revenue....

2) The huge gaping hole left in the world largest office building may hint that the crash was very large. Also there were renovations that day because those renovations involved the removing of asbestos from the building, so yeah you might not want to come into work that day. It wasnt that the portion of the Pentagon was completely empty when it was attacked, more than 120 people were working in the Pentagon and died when the plane hit.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

3) So they made a mistake about which hand he uses big deal its one minor mistake. As for the reason why he wasnt singled out for being wanted for 9/11, that is because he was instead declared wanted for "Murder of U.S. Nationals Outside the United States; Conspiracy to Murder U.S. Nationals Outside the United States; Attack on a Federal Facility Resulting in Death" They already had plenty of reasons for his capture

http://www.fbi.gov...
http://www.washingtonpost.com...

4) WTC tower 7 sustained very heavy damage to the roof and side after the collapse of the North Tower. The claim that news agencies reported it collapsed a half hour before it happened was a misunderstanding because they were referring to how firefighters were pulled from the building two hours before because fire marshals FEARED it would collapse.

The names of the hijackers were very common names in the Arabic World, not everyone has a completely unique name you know. The claim that FBI didnt know who they were or if there were any is pure bullsh*t because telephone calls between many organizations and flight attendants aboard the hijacked flights. The flight attendants identified which seats they came from and accurately described how they looked and later the identities of the men who purchased tickets for those seats were identified and sure enough were traced back to Al-Qaeda.

WTC did receive some media attention, but it was not considered an important victory for America because if you looked to the left there were still two massive holes that used to be the site of a much bigger symbol of American pride

Maine had much lower security allowing the to sneak in while they were armed, something they might have had trouble with in far larger airports. The Maine to Boston flights were crucial because those planes were later refueled for long distance flights to the west coast meaning that they would be full of fuel when the terrorists crashed them into the towers. By the way the US did not have any protocol for using military force against hijacked airliners, and we still dont.

The Secret service didnt know that the US was indeed under attack until after the second plane hit the world trade center. Also the attacks were centered in New York so they had no reason to believe that a US attack in Florida was imminent. The attacks were by planes so the idea that one of them could be hijacked and then flown into one of thousands of elementary schools and it would be the one the president was in is ludicrous. furthermore it wasnt national attention that Bush was in Florida at the time, or even in an elementary school. By the way Bush had his own reasons if he didnt want to freak out the children fine, it was his call. You may have done something different but thats just your opinion. The idea that his not immediate reaction to the attacks is "the smoking guns of smoking guns" is rather sad since you say that as a statement instead of analyzing his move.

Osama did not directly have anything to do with 9/11. But he claimed responsibility for the attacks on many occasions, claimed the attacks were justified, claimed that it was time for holy war with the west, denounced our ties to Israel and stationing of troops in Saudi Arabia, and was head of the organization behind the attacks. We had more than enough reasons to go after him after 9/11

Molten steel impossible? condense a 120+ story building into the ground and that gives you a hell of a lot of pressure. That combined with the already burning fires could easily melt steel and keep it molten for a long time.
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com...

How did a passport survive? it wasnt just a passport that survived there were huge amounts of passenger belongings that survived the crash. And the plane didnt burst into flames first, it smashed into a skyscraper and then exploded.

Photos withheld? Many photos were requested to be classified right after the attack, but declassification is a process where older material is judged for declassification first. the Photos are just at the back of that line, theyll come out in time dont you worry :)

United 93 didnt vaporize completely, it plowed into the ground last registered at more than 400+ mph which destroyed the fuselage. There was lots of evidence found from the crash site including black boxes, pieces of the airplane, luggage, etc.

Now consider this, The Con has not provided any explanation for what possible conspiracy lies at hand, he has only cited inconsistencies in independent sources about the attacks and use those mistakes as "proof" that there is a conspiracy. If a conspiracy does exist though, it would have to be a collaborative effort from the NYFD, NYPD, American Airlines, Delta Airlines, FAA, NORAD, American Society of Civil Engineers, FEMA, CIA, FBI, NYC Port Authority, Everyone in the Pentagon (at the time of the crash and after), the 1600 widows & widowers (and no money wouldn't shut all of them up), the Media (US Mainstream, BBC, Al Jazeera, etc.), the Photographers (from all over the world), NY Governor Pataki, all of the NYC Scrap Yards, Structural Engineers Worldwide, Installers of the Demolition Devices into the buildings (and there would have had to been hundreds of them), Airphone employees who took calls from passengers, Relatives and Friends of passengers on the airplanes who took calls from them, PBS NOVA, all affected Insurance Companies.... and that's just off the top of my head

The idea that there is a 9/11 conspiracy is a web of outlandish ideas from people who hate looking at facts
http://911review.org...
Shinigami13

Con

I seriously doubt that that the amount of put options multiplied by nearly 2000 because a labor contract negotiation collapsed. Even so, remember that the exact same thing happened with American Airlines, Morgan Stanley, and Marsh & McLennan, all whom suffered from 9/11. So the cause of the massive put options was clearly not due to a labor contract negotiation.

Are you seriously citing Wikipedia as a source? Because I would like to say when I checked, the Pentagon was vacated due to an infestation of mutant frogs with laser beams that were threatening to pull the entire building down with intergalactic time-space compressors which threatened to destroy the fabric of the universe. All joking aside, the crash was 65 ft across. A Boing 757-200, the plane that allegedly crashed, is a 124 ft across. Do the math. Furthermore, how does a crash that brought the WTC to its knees, and cause huge explosions of fire, manage to leave many highly flammable objects unharmed? The Pentagon crash does not make any sense at all.

Just because he has committed other crimes does not mean that he carried out 9/11. In fact, the fact that he carried out other crimes makes him perfect to blame to 9/11, rather than make it less likely that they simply blamed him. This coincides with a commonly used propaganda tactic, scapegoating. Find a person that they can blame, and pin the whole event on them. Furthermore, the FBI even admitted that they had no hard evidence linking Osama to 9/11. And you cannot refute that the tape of Bin Laden admitting to 9/11 looks nothing like him.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...

So, the U.S is under attack, and his priority is to make sure that the children didn't freak out. The attacks were not centered in New York, they allegedly also happened in Washington D.C.

"theyll come out in time dont you worry :)" I don't know if you haven't looked at a calender for the past 10 years, but that is exactly how long it's been since 9/11. That is a completely ridiculous argument.

Furthermore, there is the fact that the 9/11 crashes break pretty much every single law of science and logic. You mentioned the luggage and passports. Now, how does a crash that vaporizes a plane, leave that all intact. Specifically, a passport? And if they got onto the plane with fake passports, why on earth would they bring their real passports?

And then the science of the explosion. Jet fuel which is basically kerosine, and it burns at a maximum temperature of around 800°C, and now has suddenly taken on the qualities of a ferociously explosive demolition agent, vaporizing 65 tons of aircraft into a puff of smoke. Never mind that a plane of that size contains around 15 tons of steel and titanium, of which even the melting points are about double that of the maximum combustion temperature of kerosine — let alone the boiling point — which is what would be required to vaporize a plane. And then there's about 50 tons of aluminum to be accounted for. In excess of 15 lbs of metal for each gallon of kerosine. And if somehow the plane did vaporize, which I have already proved is ludicrous, how did passports and luggage survive? It is absolutely ridiculous.

And then, the stance is taken that the buildings collapsed due to fires caused by the burning kerosine. For this, it's necessary to sweep aside the second law of thermodynamics and propose kerosine which is not only impossibly destructive, but also recycles itself for a second burning in violation of the law of degradation of energy. You see, the kerosine not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball, vaporizing a 65 ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000°C for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper's steel like butter. And while it was doing all this it also poured down the elevator shafts, starting fires all through the building. The entropy law suggests that a given portion of fuel can only burn once, something which is readily observable in the real world. But apparently, a few thousand gallons of kerosine is enough to
completely vaporize a 65 ton aircraft, have enough left over to burn ferociously enough for over an hour at the impact point to melt steel (melting point about double the maximum combustion temperature of the fuel) and, still have enough left over to pour down the elevator shafts and start similarly destructive fires all through the building. Which is ridiculous.

So lets say that the steel frames softened, and then came straight down, instead of bucking and twisting sideways.

Since we've already re-engineered the combustion qualities of jet fuel, violated the second law of thermodynamics, and re-defined the structural properties of steel, why let a little thing like the laws of gravity get in the way?

The tower fell in a time almost identical to that of a free-falling object, dropped from that height, meaning that it's physically impossible for it to have collapsed by the method of the top floors smashing through the lower floors. But according to the reports, the laws of gravity were temporarily suspended on the morning of Sept 11. Apparently, the plane was enough to force down the tower at a speed physically impossible under the laws of gravity, had it been meeting any resistance from fireproofed steel structures originally designed to resist many tons of hurricane force wind as well as the impact of a Boeing passenger jet straying off course.

Basically, the two accepted reasons of the 9/11 twin towers collapse are both completely ludicrous.

Finally, for the rest of your arguments that I have not addressed, they are technically invalid, as you haven't sourced them.

http://911review.org...




Debate Round No. 3
imabench

Pro

The Pentagon was evacuated on 9/11 because of renovations that were taking place
http://911research.wtc7.net...
http://www.whs.mil...
http://pentagon.osd.mil...
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...
http://museum-sos.org...

There are 5 independent sources about how parts of the Pentagon were evacuated because of renovations, so take your mutant frog theory and shove it up your %#$ since thats where it came from

As for saying Bin Laden did not take part in 9/11,

http://worldpress.org...
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk...
http://news.bbc.co.uk...
http://www.defense.gov...

Looks like Osama to me and anyone else who knows what he looks like.

The time it takes for documents to be declassified are about 25 years, its only been 10.....
http://people.howstuffworks.com...
http://www.gpo.gov...

The plane wasnt vaporized genius, there were airplane parts found everywhere at the 9/11 crash site it did not all spontaneously combust at a million degrees Fahrenheit like you think....
http://www.911myths.com...
http://www.rense.com...
http://www.takeourworldback.com...
http://www.911myths.com...

I want you to calm down for a second and really think about this for a second. You dont need to melt aluminum and titanium to make it seemingly vaporize. The airplanes were made out of this stuff but it usually is only 2 to 3 inches thick and in a large impact it could easily bend, shatter, etc. Also airline fuel isnt completely kerosene it is also made up of many other hydrocarbons and petroleum's that do have a much higher burning temperature then kerosene...

As for the towers coming straight down, theres a little thing called gravity that might explain that. See when you take a plane and you throw it at a building at over 400 miles per hour......... that causes quite a bit of damage......... You didnt seem to notice since you attributed the ENTIRE collapse of the towers to burning fuel.....

Also when something explodes, it goes outwards....... the impact caused a fireball to go outwards from the building and then also down the elevator shafts too since explosions travel outwards in all directions......... Your idea that the Kerosene ignited first, then de-ignited, then fell down elevator shafts only to reignite is a very nice story but utterly fictional....

-------quick heads up, so far we have not yet violated the second law of thermodynamics, created a mutant form of jet fuel with never before seen properties or created a new definition for steel--------

The towers free falled because the floor supports are designed only to transfer the weight of the floor above it to the floor below it. The floors were not designed to stop a flaming mass of 30+ top half of the building that was coming down..... So as the top half of the tower came down, that skyscraper sitting on top of another burning skyscraper could easily go down as if it were free falling because the force of that much mass moving downwards couldnt be stopped by the supports of one individual floor, so one by one they pancaked and the tower fell straight down and into the ground.....

Now for Newtons laws, force = mass times acceleration, take the mass of everything above the burning part of the tower (its quite a lot) then multiply that by the force of gravity, and you are looking at the force needed to STOP the tower from falling, no amount of steel structures could stop that.....

As for the fireproofed steel structured supports..... The towers weren't built with steel that was impervious to fires. It was regular old steel that was sprayed with a fireproof substance that was removed when that airplane going 400+ mph removed it from the beams...... Those steel beams were now unprotected, distorted from the airplane crash, and were now slowly cooking in jet fueled ignited fuel.......

As for my last argument, you WISH it wasnt valid because you know theres no way a conspiracy could involve this many people and groups....

NYFD, NYPD, American Airlines, Delta Airlines, FAA, NORAD, American Society of Civil Engineers, FEMA, CIA, FBI, NYC Port Authority, Everyone in the Pentagon, the 1600 widows & widowers, the Media, the Photographers, NY Governor Pataki, all of the NYC Scrap Yards, Structural Engineers Worldwide, Installers of the Demolition Devices into the buildings, Airphone employees who took calls from passengers, Relatives and Friends of passengers on the airplanes who took calls from them, PBS, NOVA, all affected Insurance Companies.....

These are all the groups that would have to have lied and taken part in this "conspiracy" if such a conspiracy were to be true..... AND HERES MY SOURCES PROVING THEIR INNOCENT :DDDD

NYFD - http://fdnyretiree.com...
NYPD - http://www.nyc.gov...
American Airlines - http://articles.latimes.com...
Delta Airlines - http://www.nytimes.com...
FAA - http://www.gwu.edu...
NORAD - http://www.awitness.org...
ASCE - http://911research.wtc7.net...
FEMA - http://911research.wtc7.net...
CIA - http://www.thedailybeast.com...
FBI - http://www.fbi.gov...
NYC Port Authority - http://our.homewithgod.com...
Pentagon - ( see video above)
Widows - http://abcnews.go.com...
Photographers - http://www.northjersey.com...
Governor Pataki - http://poststar.com...
Scrap Yards - http://911research.wtc7.net...
Airline employees - http://www.airliners.net...
Friends and family of the deceased - http://www.911familiesforamerica.org...

Sadly there is a character limit so I could only provide 1 of a thousand sources for each one, so let me end on these three notes

1) Con has yet to offer a valid explanation for what the conspiracy behind 9/11 is
2) 9/11 Conspirators have a tendency to ignore things called...................................................... facts
3) Hey Con, Ive used a couple dozen sources now and out of the 5 youve used,
1 is actually called debunking 9/11 myths which go against all your arguments
1 is a completely biased report with no facts to suggest the conspiracy
1 is a poster of all the crimes Osama has committed against the US
1 is a website where the editor himself claims 9/11 is a lie but offers no actual facts to reinforce his ideas
The last one is a site that claims flight 93 was staged and that the Jews are behind 9/11...

Dont hate on Wikipedia because as bad as you claim it is, it provides way more FACTS then yours do....
Shinigami13

Con

Shinigami13 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
imabench

Pro

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Vote Pro :D
Shinigami13

Con

Shinigami13 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
the reason the pentagon didn't have as much damage is because it has this weird multi- layered wall. like on layer then a another. And it wasn't so high so it couldn't collapse.
Posted by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
I was tired of 3 day voting periods so I jacked up the time limit to vote
Posted by Conspiracy_Theory 5 years ago
Conspiracy_Theory
Wow...by the time half a year is over...who knows what could happen...
Posted by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
well in this case it will end, at round 5 to be precise
Posted by Double_R 5 years ago
Double_R
Truthers will never give up their faith. Where you see 100 answers they see 100 new questions. It never ends.
Posted by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
lol, yeah i mean business on this one :P
Posted by Double_R 5 years ago
Double_R
"Once and for all..."

lol!
Posted by visini 5 years ago
visini
I have always believed that al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11, and there is proof that that is true. BUT there are some questionable things. Overall, it wasn't a conspiracy.
Posted by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
Thanks :)
Posted by Kethen 5 years ago
Kethen
I agree with you on this one bud.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
imabenchShinigami13Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: the funne thing is, it is so unlikely that it was a conspiracy it isnt even funny.