The Instigator
Chris330
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
fred70
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

"Once saved, always saved" vs. "You can lose your salvation"

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/4/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 661 times Debate No: 97633
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
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Chris330

Pro

I would like to have a debate with a fellow Christian who view that salvation can be loss. I will argue for eternal salvation. Few rules, first to accept you must be a Christian (denomination not important as long as you believe in salvation through Jesus Christ alone). Second, scriptures are of top importance and must be used to back-up your argument. However, scriptural context is import. Third, EPH 4:29 "Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building up the one in need and bringing grace to those who listen." Lets keep this civil and respectful.

ROUND 1 is the accepting
ROUND 2 is opening argument
ROUND 3 is rebuttals
ROUND 4 closing argument and why you feel your position won the debate

I look forward to the discussion.
fred70

Con

You can lose your salvation if you commit a homosexual act, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Timothy 1:10-11. I'm sick and tired of them christians having gay sex and thinking they'll go to glory in heaven. Preachers need to stop being yellow bellied and start hollering about eternal damnation, 1 John 5:16,17. It's time to start, "acting like men", 1 Corinthians 16:13.
Debate Round No. 1
Chris330

Pro

1. Consider this your warning on rule 3
2. round 1 "accepting" means you type something like "I accept and look forward to debating with you blah blah blah"
3. When debating with scriptures, giving a list of verses without an argument does nothing. I didn't think I had to include that in with rule 2

Now with that out of the way, my opening argument.

First we need to examine salvation,

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. -Romans 10:9-10

I'm sure we all been to a church or event that stated something like "If you would like to ask Jesus into your life and be saved repeat after me.....[Some variation of the "sinners prayer"]". We forget about the believe in your heart part or don't put the proper emphasis on it. I've always noticed in churches that teach loss of salvation tend to treat the salvation prayer live "magical words." Just because some one says the prayer it doesn't get them saved unless it is in there heart.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. -Matthew 7:21

What is the will of the Father?

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." -John 6:40

From the looks of it you are going to debate what I like to call the Sin-O-Meter. It's where we sign arbitrary point values to sins and as long as you are under X number you are saved. Not to regress but this is also used for "I am a better Christian than you."

Whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking ALL of it. -James 2:10

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; -Romans 3:10

With that all said:

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means! -Romans 6:15

and

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. -1Corinthians 10:23

Yes, if you carry on in sin, you step away from the blessing of God and reap what you have sown. But ...

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. -John 10:29

Now that we got the backbone of the argument I would like to put forth an argument of logic. If you have to truly believe to be saved, then for sure you would have to truly un-believe to be unsaved and how can one do that with the Holy Spirit in them?
fred70

Con

Romans 1:27 The men abandoned the natural use of the woman
and burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in themselves (being sodimized) the penalty of their error.
If a believer rejects God his punishment (the penalty of their error) is being sodimized by a demon possessed man.
Sometimes to the point of death, 1 John 5:16b.

When a Christian loses their faith we're to pray as David did, "Appoint a wicked man over him, Psalm 109:6.
Hebrews 6:4-6 warns of Christians who lose their faith, "it's impossible to renew them again".
There is no hope for them. Psalm 94:23 He has brought back their wickedness upon them and will destroy them in their evil.
They cannot be re-saved even if they seek God with tears like Esau did, Hebrews 12:17.
Debate Round No. 2
Chris330

Pro

I do not think you understand how to debate.

Every scripture you used it is used out of context and has nothing to do with keeping or loosing one's salvation.

Romans 1:27
Paul gives a whole list of things. None of which pertains to a "Christian".

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

This would be an unsaved person that heard the Gospel and rejected it.

In verse 32 Paul says " those who do such things deserve death". He does restates the same thing later as "The wages of sin is death"
(also, your conclusion of "being sodomized" is incorrect. The penalty is the absence of God)

1 John 5:16 is referring to blaspheme of the Holy Spirit which is the rejection of the Holy Spirit in your life. (unsaved)

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. -Matthew 12:31

Examining that verse in full context (1 John 5:16-18)

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he should ask God, who will give life to those who commit this kind of sin. There is a sin that leads to death; I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin. All unrighteousness is sin, yet there is sin that does not lead to death. We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning; the One who was born of God protects him, and the evil one cannot touch him.

First part, BROTHER, obviously refers to a fellow Christian. Then John mentions "a sin leading to death" and how we shouldn't pray for that. Second, "Leading to death" is spiritual death (wages of sin...; who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; etc). Third, why would John say a statement about not praying for someone? This is completely contrary to other scriptures, which we know can't be true. Therefore we are missing something and the scripture is deeper than face value. If the "sin that leads to death" is plainly understood (meaning he didn't explain it), and the only teachings of Christ that we see the same response is in Matthew 10:14 ("And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.") and we see it put in action in Acts 13. Fourth, "We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning" was going to be in my final summation, but since you brought it up I will go with it. This is the true explanation of heart knowledge verses head knowledge. A Christian DOES NOT, not should not, keep on sinning. John is not saying to be a Christian you can not continue sinning. He is saying you are not able to sin as a Christian. Does this mean we are perfect? No, we are always going to be works in progress. In Romans we learn a simple truth, "everything that does not come from faith is sin." Faith of what? Faith in Jesus Christ! The true Christian will always be able to say "For we walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians 5:7).

Psalm 109:6
Excluding Matthew 5:43-44 (You have heard that it was said, "Love your neighbor and hate your enemy." But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,) which should end this segment, but I will go over this verse as well
Questions that need asked and answered:
1. Who is the Wicked Man?
2. Why does the Psalmist ask this of God?
3. How does this fit into the new covenant?

1. Psalm 109:6 Psalm 94:4-7 (they tie into each other)
They pour out arrogant words;
all the evildoers are full of boasting.

They crush your people, Lord;
they oppress your inheritance.

They slay the widow and the foreigner;
they murder the fatherless.

They say, "The Lord does not see;
the God of Jacob takes no notice."

Doesn't at all sound like a Christian in any place of their walk. Because in verse 12 he says "Blessed is the one you discipline, Lord, the one you teach from your law". That sounds like it would be a Christian.

2. Anyone who has read and studied Psalms sees the underlying theme. Something horrible is happening, but because of God things are not as bad as I thought.

3. Matthew 6
So then, this is how you should pray:

"Our Father in heaven,..........And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors...........

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. -Matthew 6:14

Hebrews 6:4-6
This is your strongest argument, and you should have led with this.

But the falling away here mentioned, is an open and avowed renouncing of Christ, from enmity of heart against him, his cause, and people. But, in my opening argument, if the spirit of God is in you, how then can one do this? It would be impossible. Yes the flesh and spirit battle and are diabolically opposed to each other. But the Spirit CANNOT loose the war, in a manner of speaking. Greater is he that is in me...
Also "Tasted" is much different than consumed. Which again explained The Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit and show the context of why Jesus said that to the Pharisees.

You pulled this out of context.
"...or is godless like Esau"

The best way to explain this section and put it into context is The Parable of the Sower.

I apologize for the lengthiness of my rebuttal.
fred70

Con

This religion is too confusing.
I'm going to pursue eastern meditations concerning the inward/outward harmonious
reflections of Guru Gonads.
His path seems reasonable.
Debate Round No. 3
Chris330

Pro

So basically you broke all three rules that I posted
1. to accept you must be a Christian
2. scriptural context is import.
3. Lets keep this civil and respectful.

I noticed you had atheist in your profile yesterday and I was quite annoyed. I wanted to have an honest discussion with a fellow Christian on one of the most debated topics between the denominations. It does no good if you don't care or believe in salvation to begin with. You have wasted both of our time.

I will say this to you, I don't know if you just did the google thing, searching for verses that contain phrases or if you've heard this stuff before growing up. Some one in your life was very toxic to you. Luke 6:45 -For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.

Take a Trip with me down the "Romans Road"

Romans 3:23 " for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:10 " As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
Romans 5:12 " Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

While you might consider yourself "good" compared to most people, how do you measure up against God"s law? Have you ever told the smallest lie? Then you are a liar. "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin [is] death, but the gift of God [is] eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A wage is what is earned. No good judge would let the guilty go free, the criminal go unpunished. Neither can a holy righteous God allow sinful man to go unpunished" but God LOVES man whom he has made in his image and He has provided a way of escape

Romans 5:8 " But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

With such love, Jesus died in your place" knowing every evil act, word, and thought you would commit. What powerful love! He loves you unconditionally even to the point of death when you are at your worst!

Romans 10:9-10 " that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

You can never be saved by trying to be a good person, nor can you be saved through any amount of "good works".

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace have you been saved by faith. And that, not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works. Lest any man should boast.

You and I can be saved only by confessing our sins and placing our faith in God"s son, Jesus Christ who died and paid for our sins on the cross. We must also surrender our life to His lordship" placing him in charge of every area of our life because we now belong to him.

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

To repent means "change one"s mind" or to turn " to go in another direction.
first step toward repentance is true sorrow for what we"ve done wrong. "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." " 2 Corinthians 7:10

Sinners prayer. It's up to you now
"Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen."

Romans 10:13 " For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
fred70

Con

Glittery, glittery dangling balls
Glittering on the tree!
O how I love this time of year,
So many balls to see!
Jesus! Jesus! Your birthday is almost here!
Look at all of our dangling balls and fill us all with cheer!

SHAZAM!
Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by fred70 1 year ago
fred70
Ha! He's right. For example: the torah gives the option to give 40 lashes to a sinner.
You charge them the value of their back, forty times!
Posted by boozeandbabble 1 year ago
boozeandbabble
This debate is intense. You people smart.
Posted by Chris330 1 year ago
Chris330
For starters, social etiquette, how is hitting someone in the "junk" social etiquette.
Second, you can talk to any rabbi to confirm this but this, like most of "The Law", falls under the "eye for an eye principle". Which the majority of people don't understand that the "eye for an eye principle" is about monetary value. If you "remove my eye" you owe me the value of your eye. Now in the problem with Deuteronomy 25:11 is that a woman doesn't have "junk" so it falls to the value of her hand. Now all this comes full circle with the "golden rule" Do to others as you would have them do to you (Lk 6:31). Don't hit someone in the junk unless you would want someone to chop off you hand. Don't knock out some one's tooth, don't gouge out some's eye, etc. To me that is social etiquette.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
yea its non sense
Posted by boozeandbabble 1 year ago
boozeandbabble
If a woman grabs a man's penis during a fight, you shall cut off her hand. Show no pity. (Deuteronomy 25:11,12) No one who is wounded in the testicles shall enter the congregation of the Lord. (Deuteronomy 23:1) The Bible is more concerned about the penis than about social etiquette. I'm a deist btw.
Posted by Chris330 1 year ago
Chris330
Thank you for trolling. I would like to suggest you find a nice debate on crystals or aliens responsible for life on this planet.

Since you are here, I have a question to ask you. If you don't believe in the existence of God, why then do you spend time being argumentative towards theists? If I don't believe in something and I see a post on the topic; I would just keep scrolling.
Posted by boozeandbabble 1 year ago
boozeandbabble
God abandoned his theological ambitions during the Mesozoic Era.
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