The Instigator
darkkermit
Pro (for)
Winning
8 Points
The Contender
vardas0antras
Con (against)
Losing
4 Points

One should not feel sorry for those who are narcissistic, arrogant, control freaks

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/17/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,232 times Debate No: 16556
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (42)
Votes (4)

 

darkkermit

Pro

I will be Pro. One has the right to feel sorry for these people, but that does not mean that one should be. Just like one should give to charity, although one has the right not to.

A reminder there is only 10 minutes allocated for debating in each round. First round is used for clarifications. The second round is for debating.
vardas0antras

Con

I accept the debate.

I would like for you all to notice how my opponent uses the word "should". Evidently, I am not defending a duty, but on balance, a better choice.

Askbob, I hope you're reading!
Debate Round No. 1
darkkermit

Pro

I agree with CON's definition. Thanks to my opponent for accepting this debate.

Those whom are narcissistic, arrogant and control freaks are unlikely to change their ways unless a certain type of pressure is used that will cause them to change their ways. This involves punishing those whom are narcissistic, arrogant, control freaks. Both common sense and psychology dictates this. B.F. Skinner showed that people will discontinue actions if they are punished for them and will continue certain actions if the actions are reinforced. It is also in our basic biological nature to punish "cheaters" or those people who harm others. This is also supported through use of game theory. In a prisoner dilemma type game, the best strategy is to use a tic-for-tac strategy. In other words, punish bad behavior and reward good behavior. This creates optimal socially beneficial behavior that benefits both parties

Feeling sorry for a person who is narcissistic, arrogant, control freak will only reinforce and reward such behavior. Instead, it is best not to feel sorry for that person. This person does not deserve mercy. Each person is accountable for his or her actions and should receive rightful justice for such actions. This is the only merciful form of justice and leads to optimal social outcomes.
vardas0antras

Con

My Opponents Arguments:
1. One will not change without pressure
"This involves punishing those whom are narcissistic, arrogant, control freaks."
A mother may beat her child but she can still feel sorry for him. After all, he didn't know any better.

2. Feeling sorry reinforces behavior
"Feeling sorry for a person who is narcissistic, arrogant, control freak will only reinforce and reward such behavior." Unfounded and I am about to argue otherwise.

3. Justice
Refer to number one.

My Arguments:
1. The person doesn't know better
We know that what he is doing is wrong and we know that he will suffer for it. So, what causes him to do these things? Ignorance and ignorance ought to be felt sorry for.

2. Feeling sorry is healing
Feeling sorry for someone shows them that what they're doing is silly while fighting back only shows that you don't like them.
Debate Round No. 2
darkkermit

Pro

My opponent argues that:
"A mother may beat her child but she can still feel sorry for him. After all, he didn't know any better."

I would like to note that beating a child is proven to be an ineffective way to correct child behavior, and often makes the child more violent and have greater problems. Instead, using forms of guilt are better forms of punishment. A mother cannot truly punish the child, if she feels sorry for a child. This can lead to conflict of interests. How can one truly punish somebody if he/she feels sorry. This would only be a weakness the child can exploit.

2. Feeling sorry reinforces behavior
I explained how it reinforces the behavior. If one feels sorry for the person, one cannot truly punish the person and will be prone to weakness.

3. same as above.

Counterarguments:
1. Just because one is ignorant doesn't mean one should feel sorry for this person. It also begs the question "did the person really know better?" The person might have known better, but did the action anyways just to reward his/her pleasure.

Furthermore, should one feel sorry for Osama Bin Laden if he didn't know better? No.

2. If you show that you don't like them, they are more likely to change their patterns. If you show you feel sorry for them, your weakness will be exploited.
vardas0antras

Con

My Arguments:
"A mother cannot truly punish the child, if she feels sorry for a child. This can lead to conflict of interests. How can one truly punish somebody if he/she feels sorry. This would only be a weakness the child can exploit."

My opponent is confusing weakness with feeling sorry for someone. How does it lead to conflict of interests? On one hand, she loves the child (doesn't want him to get hurt) and on the other hand she is doing what is right (preventing his downfall). Moreover, someone who doesn't care about the child will not try as hard as a person who cares to correct the child.

"If one feels sorry for the person, one cannot truly punish the person and will be prone to weakness."

That is completely groundless.

OP Arguments:
"Just because one is ignorant doesn't mean one should feel sorry for this person"

It is not a duty but on balance the ignorant person is suffering a lot of unnecessary pain and so should be felt sorry for.

"Furthermore, should one feel sorry for Osama Bin Laden if he didn't know better? No."
I think Osama did know better but if he didn't, why shouldn't we feel sorry for him?

"If you show that you don't like them, they are more likely to change their patterns. "
Unfounded. Showing dislike only begs for more dislike while feeling sorry is a great tool to open their eyes and have them see their foolish behavior.
Debate Round No. 3
darkkermit

Pro

My opponent asks how feeling sorry for someone can lead to a conflict on interest. It is easy. By feeling sorry for someone, you obtain a negative feeling. One feels bad for punishing a child. However, if one does not feel sorry for one's action, one will be more willing to punish the child. Also feeling sorry for a child is not equivalent to not caring about the child.

My opponent conceded that we should feel sorry for Osama Bin Laden. However, he believes that we should feel sorry for Osama since he "knew better". This again begs the question: How do we know that an arrogant, control freak doesn't know better? It is hypocritical for my opponent to not feel sorry for Osama Bin Laden but feel sorry for a narcisstic, arrogant control freak. Both did acts of harm. Osama Bin Laden probably actually believed he was doing the right thing due to religion. A narcissistic, arrogant control freak has no such excuse.

Social rejection is also a great tool for change. Since people are motivated to be around others, since we are social creatures, it would breed change. People who do not feel sorry are more likely to speak their mind against them. The control freak would then learn his way and likely change his pattern. The arrogant person is also suffering from necessary pain.

In conclusion, justice says we should punish those who do wrong. Feeling sorry for those whose only blame is themselves are unworthy of sorrow. Sorrow should be more devoted to those more deserving of it
vardas0antras

Con

"By feeling sorry for someone, you obtain a negative feeling. One feels bad for punishing a child."
This does not effect the parents actions. Feeling=/=Doing.

Also:
"Moreover, someone who doesn't care about the child will not try as hard as a person who cares to correct the child."

"Also feeling sorry for a child is not equivalent to not caring about the child."
It is. You emphasize with whom you care about.

"It is hypocritical for my opponent to not feel sorry for Osama Bin Laden but feel sorry for a narcisstic, arrogant control freak"
1. I did not concede
2. "How do we know that an arrogant, control freak doesn't know better?" Because his actions cause sympathy or downfall.
3. How could then Osama know better? I take those words back but even if I didn't I argue that religion blinded him

"People who do not feel sorry are more likely to speak their mind against them."
Unfounded.

In conclusion, the person doesn't know any better and it is healing unlike what my opponent suggested.
Debate Round No. 4
42 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
For the voters:
"People who do not feel sorry are more likely to speak their mind against them. The control freak would then learn his way and likely change his pattern. " ----> "My opponent is confusing weakness with feeling sorry for someone. How does it lead to conflict of interests? On one hand, she loves the child (doesn't want him to get hurt) and on the other hand she is doing what is right (preventing his downfall)."
+
"Moreover, someone who doesn't care about the child will not try as hard as a person who cares to correct the child."

The argument on this with cliff can be seen in the comment section. Please vote fairly.
Posted by darkkermit 6 years ago
darkkermit
I was expecting Debate.org to be integrated into Juggle, but so far it hasn't.
Posted by darkkermit 6 years ago
darkkermit
I sent a PM to JuliaD. I feel kind of bad for hassling her off a single point. I mean, if everyone did that, then she would spend unnecessary time just modding, and be losing money off Debate.org. I doubt the mods even generate much revenue from debate.org. In fact, I'm still unsure how Juggle is making money off debate.org.
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
You can pm/email the mods, report the debate and add it into the comment description, etc. . .
Posted by darkkermit 6 years ago
darkkermit
I can't report votes.
Posted by darkkermit 6 years ago
darkkermit
No the path to darkness if I called the voter out on the forums, started gathering his personal information, and spread rumors about him.

But I see your point: I'll report it.
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
It is reasonable to ask for them yes, but if you start calling for people to counter vote and thus give you points not because of merit but to cancel out what you think is an unfair / unjustified vote then that leads to fear, and fear leads to anger, and anger leads to hate and heat leads to suffering, and suffering to the dark side.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
"once you start calling for votes to be removed for any reasons you are taking to road to be on your way to become darkbob" Isn't that a bit too extreme? It is reasonable to want reasonable RFDs and askbob merely wants more hence why he ain't getting elected.
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
"Well, isn't my statement true? "

To you yes, but that is a road you really don't want to travel, once you start calling for votes to be removed for any reasons you are taking to road to be on your way to become darkbob. If you feel it is out of line just report it to the moderators.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
"I feel as if Phoenix_Reaper's vote should be corrected since he didn't give a RFD." No RFD = A Crappy RFD. Just saying.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
darkkermitvardas0antrasTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Nicely debated under the unusual 10 minute rule. Pro had the right argument in the first round: only punishment works. Narrogons are sociopaths, immune to criticism or persuasion. There is no reason to feel sorry; it's irrelevant. Even with the ten minute rule, someone should have found a reference -- search on the opponents time.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
darkkermitvardas0antrasTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: "People who do not feel sorry are more likely to speak their mind against them. The control freak would then learn his way and likely change his pattern. " - while this is false, and will make the situation worse, this was not refuted by Con as were not the other points. Clear 3 pt to Pro and a skinner box reference for the win!
Vote Placed by Phoenix_Reaper 6 years ago
Phoenix_Reaper
darkkermitvardas0antrasTied
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Vote Placed by MrCarroll 6 years ago
MrCarroll
darkkermitvardas0antrasTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro made assertions that didn't make much sense.