The Instigator
philosphical
Pro (for)
Tied
31 Points
The Contender
wonderwoman
Con (against)
Tied
31 Points

One volunteer, is better than ten forced men.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/9/2010 Category: Arts
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,824 times Debate No: 11133
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (11)
Votes (12)

 

philosphical

Pro

This is a philosophy debate. This debate will start in the second round.

If you would like to be pro, comment first, and I will change my position.

Peace,
philosophical :)
wonderwoman

Con

10 forced men are better than 1
Debate Round No. 1
philosphical

Pro

I believe that one volunteer would be more likely to get more work done than ten forced men for the following points:

1. Volunteers actually WANT to get the work done.

2. Forced people don't have as much will to get it done.

Contention one:

Volunteers actually WANT to get the work done, wheras forced people are less likely. I mean, these people volunteered for because they had the will to do so. They wanted to get whatever needs to be done, and volunteered they're service. When someone really wants to get something done, they will be more likely to go ahead and do it. For example: If a mother tells her kid to go clean his/her room, or he/she will be grounded, how much effort is the kid going to put into cleaning? But let's say that kid had a date coming over that same day. Isn't going to be more likely for him/her to want to clean it to make a good impression? They're going to want to put a heck of alot more effort into it, because they are doing it for something they want to do rather than what their parents wants them to do.

Contention two:

Forced people don't have as much will to get it done because chances are they probably don't want to do it. Alot of time when you are driving down the road, and you see construction workers, more than half of the time they are taking a break or goofing of rather than actually working. They get paid by the hour, so the longer they procastinate the better it is for them. However If someone volunteered to do the work, they would be more obligated to do the work.

Good luck to my oppoent in the next round :)

-philosophical
wonderwoman

Con

His case
C1)
Sure a volunteer may actually WANT to get the work done but the FORCED are just as likely to get it done because they face dire consequences such as death. Motivation seems to be the basis of his argument here. Well, 10 forced African chiilder soldiers are more effective than 1 male volunteer soldiers. I get bullets fired just as effectively and more are actually fired from the 10 children soldiers thus allowing 10 forced children to be better. If he wants to word play and use the term men than 10 FORCED conscript men fire more bullets and they are just as deadly as if fired from 1 man except I get more.

C2) Will to work/motivation again seems to be the basis. Well, Slavery is a prime example of how this is bull sh!t. Back in the old America where blacks were slaves, stuff got done, they didn't get paid, they were motivated by the threat of death or beating and were FORCED to do the work and the work still managed to get done effectively and if it didn't you knew you would be beaten. So, I would contend that 10 men forced men can get more work done in 1 day than a single volunteer

My Case

Point 1) Machiavelli

VIolence and cruelty are often the force driving men to do what they need to. An instance in which cruelty is necessary and forces 10 or more men to act, is when the prince is commanding his troops in war. Here Machiavelli uses the example of Hannibal, whose "inhuman cruelty" enabled him to hold together and maintain control over his army. Machiavelli points out that the same people who praise Hannibal for his accomplishments also condemn his cruelty, and yet without the cruelty he could not have accomplished everything he did

In conclusion My opponent's arguments fall short and Machiavelli proves that ten forced men can accomplish more than 1 volunteerman

( I reserve the right to add more contentions in round 3 but will not add points in round 4)
Debate Round No. 2
philosphical

Pro

WW: "Sure a volunteer may actually WANT to get the work done but the FORCED are just as likely to get it done because they face dire consequences such as death."

But don't you think that having death as a consequence would trigger the opposite effect? I mean, if their life is one the line they might consider giving up, or being too scared to continue the work. Whereas someone who WANTED to do the work would have all the motivation in the world by simply having a will to do something for free, because they think it will better someone's life.

WW: " Well, 10 forced African chiilder soldiers are more effective than 1 male volunteer soldiers. I get bullets fired just as effectively and more are actually fired from the 10 children soldiers thus allowing 10 forced children to be better. If he wants to word play and use the term men than 10 FORCED conscript men fire more bullets and they are just as deadly as if fired from 1 man except I get more."

The thing is that these children who are forced into the army aren't going to have as much will power as someone who volunteered. They would wonder things like "Whats is even the point if we are not going to be able to have freedom anyway?"
But with a volunteer, they have willingly joined to better their country, or what they feel is at least bettering it by. They would have a stronger determination, and willpower to get the job done, and more than likely would be able to take down ten soldiers singlehandly who had been forced in the army.

WW: "Will to work/motivation again seems to be the basis. Well, Slavery is a prime example of how this is bull sh!t. Back in the old America where blacks were slaves, stuff got done, they didn't get paid, they were motivated by the threat of death or beating and were FORCED to do the work and the work still managed to get done effectively and if it didn't you knew you would be beaten."

But how would we know how this works opposed to how things would get done if they had volunteered? Slaves ran away all the time. They rebelled against leaders. But if they had willingly wanted to, one of them could double that work, and have spirit in getting it complete. More spirit and will, = getting more done.

WW: "VIolence and cruelty are often the force driving men to do what they need to. An instance in which cruelty is necessary and forces 10 or more men to act, is when the prince is commanding his troops in war. Here Machiavelli uses the example of Hannibal, whose "inhuman cruelty" enabled him to hold together and maintain control over his army. Machiavelli points out that the same people who praise Hannibal for his accomplishments also condemn his cruelty, and yet without the cruelty he could not have accomplished everything he did"

While fear can be a great motivational factor, we have yet to consider how that compares to volunteered work. Love and will are just as great motivational factors if not greater ones.
Armies led with courage and a want to get things done always have had the better luck in the end of any war.
Someone who has been forced do something has been raised with fear. Is it more likely that someone rushing into battle is going to be more succesful with fear, or with courage and hope?

It is for all these reasons that I believe 1 volunteered man would have much more success then 10 forced men. Thankyou.
-philosophical
wonderwoman

Con

wonderwoman forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
philosphical

Pro

Unfortunately my opponent was unable to respond.

Quick once over of my case:

1.Volunteers are more comitted in getting work done, thus they will be able to get more done than someone who is unwilling.

2. Forced people are more obligated get work done, yet they lack will to do it, whereas a volunteer wants there to be a change and will make an active movement to complete their goal.

Thankyou,
-philosophical
wonderwoman

Con

P:"But don't you think that having death as a consequence would trigger the opposite effect?"

Clearly not which is why I said it.

P:"Whereas someone who WANTED to do the work would have all the motivation in the world by simply having a will to do something for free, because they think it will better someone's life."

Slavery bettered the lifes of plantation owners and slaves were forced.

P:They would wonder things like "Whats is even the point if we are not going to be able to have freedom anyway?"

We're not arguing about whether or not freedom is important. The can wonder that if they want but does that wonderment hurt the effectiveness of their bullets when they strike a target. I think not.

P:They would have a stronger determination, and willpower to get the job done, and more than likely would be able to take down ten soldiers singlehandly who had been forced in the army.

No, logic to prove this statement no statistic, I believe it is a null and void clearly straw man argument.

P: "But if they had willingly wanted to, one of them could double that work, and have spirit in getting it complete. More spirit and will, = getting more done."

Once again no logic or proof. He is guessing. The pyramids, cotton, killing enemies, are all tangible and oservable things that forcing people to do has created.

P:"While fear can be a great motivational factor"

Conceeded this which is great for the use farther on.

P:"Love and will are just as great motivational factors if not greater ones.
Armies led with courage and a want to get things done always have had the better luck in the end of any war.
Someone who has been forced do something has been raised with fear. Is it more likely that someone rushing into battle is going to be more succesful with fear, or with courage and hope?"

Genghis Khan and Hannibal examples Machiavelli provided evidence of how this was false because they succeeded far more than any virteous army leader had/has. Fear of what happens when and if the soldier fails is highly motivational when talking about Hannibal who would dismember his own people if they failed or pissed him off.

In His last round he summed up his points.

1) Well, I think that slaves, soldiers, Hannibal, and Machiavellian ideals and observations clearly disprove that 1 volunteer can achieve more than 10 forced men.

2) Forced people are more obligated thank you for conceding this. I don't care how it gets done or how effeciently the point is 10 forced people get it done better than one volunteer.

I thank you for reading your vote and since I have discredited all aff arguments and have shown through the negative that 10 forced men are better than 1 volunteer than I urge a negative ballot.
Debate Round No. 4
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Railsguardian 4 years ago
Railsguardian
I agree GENERALLY with con in this debate. Why?

Well, let's say that eleven people join the army. One of them fights for the (A) side and the other ten fight for the (B) side. The one fighting for the (A) side is a voulenteer, happy to fight for the cause and uphold the beliefs of his force. Then ten figthing for the (B) side are 'forced' because of (insert reason here). So they go to battle against one another. Now let's just say EVERYONE on the (A) side fought bravely, but were in the end, killed in the fighting. Same goes for the (B) side, EXCEPT the ten forced men were the ones that servived. Now, the patriotic volunteer on the (A) side is believing in the 'fighting to the last man' mentality, and wholehartedly attacks his cause's sworn enemies: the ten forced men on the (B) side! He loyally charges for his country, willing to fight to the death.

At the same time, the ten men on the (B) side that remain see the last enemy running at them, ready to obliterate them withevery fiber of his soul. Having the same equipment as the one man (except multiplied by ten) they see someone who is ready to destroy them for his cause.

Whether or not they were patriotic, forced, volunteered, or anything, the ten men fire FOR THEIR OWN PROTECTION.

So no, when it comes to war, the ten men win hands down.

However, if you are talking people at, say, a fundraiser, the volunteer will be pouring his heart into his work for the good fo a cause. The ten forced men will also be working, but not with as near as much fervor to do their task. Now, if it were TEN volunteers vs ten forced men, then yes, the volunteer would win, but in this case, odds are the ten forced men still are more productive then one ferverant volunteer.

Also, it depends on what the 'force' is that is making them do this.

So, in the end, I agree with Con.
Posted by wjmelements 4 years ago
wjmelements
Not all volunteers want to get the job done. Some just want service hours :-)
Posted by wonderwoman 4 years ago
wonderwoman
could we get a RFD as well on the voting
Posted by wonderwoman 4 years ago
wonderwoman
my bad but I am going to have forfeit this round at most give yourself to conduct point and um ya I will treat your arguments made as well needing answers, and I will not bring up anymore arguments in my last rebuttal but rather refute yours and explain why your interp of mine is wrong, once again I am sorry but is weekend is hectic
Posted by philosphical 4 years ago
philosphical
hmm??
Posted by wonderwoman 4 years ago
wonderwoman
hes arguments are interesting when refers are to wants just watch
Posted by sherlockmethod 4 years ago
sherlockmethod
But is one wonderwoman better than all of them put together?
Posted by Ore_Ele 4 years ago
Ore_Ele
define "better"
Posted by studentathletechristian8 4 years ago
studentathletechristian8
I disagree.
Posted by philosphical 4 years ago
philosphical
One person who volunteers do to any kind of work is more likely to get more done then ten people who are forced to do it.
12 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Atheism 3 years ago
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