The Instigator
MrJLW
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Noogah
Con (against)
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Oneness of God vs. Trinity of God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/19/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 913 times Debate No: 34885
Debate Rounds (5)
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MrJLW

Pro

To participate in this debate, the Holy Bible (KJV) will be used as the infallible Word of God.

For debate purposes-

Trinity- God is divided into three separate, co-equal, and co-eternal entities or beings commonly refereed to as the father, son, and Holy Ghost.

Oneness- God is One eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient being whose name is Jesus Christ.

I am going to go ahead and dive in with my opening statements.

There is no such thing as the Trinity. The "Holy Trinity" is NOT biblical and was NEVER taught ANYWHERE in the Bible. It is a false doctrine that should not be taught to any person that calls themselves a Christian. The bible, from cover to cover, always spoke of God as ONE being, never as three separate entities that modern day Christians believe in.
Noogah

Con

Hello MrJLW,

Thanks very much for posting this extremely important debate.

For the purposes of this debate, and personally as well, I am glad that we both accept the Bible as "the infallible Word of God". It is precisely this authoritative volume which convinces us both of God's oneness, but it is also this volume that convinces me that the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

I concede to you that the word "trinity" is not to be found once between the Bible's covers. But that does not make the doctrine false. The word is one that helps us to understand aspects of God which are certainly taught in the Bible.

With that in mind, I want to contend with your definition of the Trinity. While some may defend the position is that God is divided into three beings, this strongly resembles the position of Tritheism rather than the Christian Trinity. Most Christians recognize Tritheism as a heresy - namely, the view that there are actually three gods.

A Bible believer must confess that God is one, and that God is not divided. Isaiah 45:5 states: "I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me..."

The Christian position on the Trinity is not that God is not one, or that there is more than one God. Rather, it is a view on the nature of God that is clearly taught in Scriptures. While no Christian understands how it can be that God is one God in three persons, we believe it is true, and it is taught in scripture. It is a mystery - one we are content to profess in faith without understanding.

Perhaps the position is most clearly articulated in 1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

John 1:14-15 clearly identifies "the Word" as Jesus Christ -

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."

Furthermore, Jesus Himself declares in John 10:30 -

"I and my Father are one."

With these scriptures, I am not sure how you can deny the doctrine of the Trinity - which we might refer to with the more Biblical term Godhead - as unbiblical.

Jesus is God, but He is not the Father. The Father is God, but He is not Jesus. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is neither Jesus nor the Father.
Consider the ancient Shield of the Trinity as a concise statement of this doctrine:




And in the vernacular:

Debate Round No. 1
MrJLW

Pro

MrJLW forfeited this round.
Noogah

Con

I would like to give MrJLW another chance to respond to my previous submission.
Debate Round No. 2
MrJLW

Pro

MrJLW forfeited this round.
Noogah

Con

Noogah forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
MrJLW

Pro

MrJLW forfeited this round.
Noogah

Con

Noogah forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
MrJLW

Pro

MrJLW forfeited this round.
Noogah

Con

Noogah forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by JayCaesar12 3 years ago
JayCaesar12
When it comes to the Trinity, I think an easy way to think about it is thus:

You have God, El Shaddai, Adonai, Elohim, YHWH, Ha Shem as containing a single essence. At once you have who is referred to as God the Father, who is wholly omniprecient and wholly omnipotent, who knows all of time and all of Creation. Then there are two aspects of God - his word/wisdom (the Logos) and his Spirit. The Logos is the unifying principle of the world, all of Creation is made through the Word/Wisdom of God. Then the Holy Spirit/ the Ruach HaKodesh is God's active force in the world, the pneuma that spread over the waters in Genesis. A being's words and a being's spirit are inseparable from the being it comes from, yet distinct at the same time. An (incredibly imperfect) analogy I think would be comparing the Trinity to this: God the Father is the Architect of the Universe, God the Son is the Blueprint, and God the Holy Spirit is the Hammer.

Thus, it was God's active Holy Spirit that entered Mary's womb, jump starting the natural processes that lead to the creation of a child, without the aid of human male. As God's Word became flesh, became incarnated, Jesus is able to occupy all three titles given to him, "Son of God," "Son of Man," and "God" himself. Because, God cannot be divisible in essence/substance, so it is impossible for someone to be "half-God." As "the Son of God," it would logically mean that Jesus is both "Son of God" and "God himself."

I know I probably phrased it strangely, and forgive me for any ramblings, but the answer to the conflict between God's unity and the Trinity is that both are compatible. The Trinity as described in the Nicene Creed can hold up to rational scrutiny.
Posted by Noogah 3 years ago
Noogah
"How if he is God he does not know everything? Doesnt God supposed to know all of this?"

Remember that the Father is God. If the Father knows the time, then God knows the time. The Son is God too, however, remember that the Father is not the Son. Therefore, the Son need not know what the Father knows, and yet God can still know it.

It is also true that Jesus was a man while on Earth, and in His human state, He shared the weaknesses we have. I don't believe that, as a man, Jesus necessarily knew everything He would know after His Resurrection. CARM.org makes this point (http://carm.org...)

"How can YHWH be not shy about saying he is God, and Jesus says that he will go back to God?"

Jesus, who is God, was sent to Earth by His Father, who is also God.

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." " 1 John 4:14

The passage you reference refers to Christ"s resurrection and ascension, when He will return to Heaven.

I think this resource might help you more: http://www.gotquestions.org...
Posted by Noogah 3 years ago
Noogah
Lucian,

"The main thing with Jesus is that he contradicted himself many times in all 4 gospels about his status as the Father for instance."

If you believe that Jesus was able to contradict Himself, and that the Bible therefore contains contradictions, then you lack a good foundation for the Trinity.

In fact, you really lack a good foundation for any Christian doctrine whatsoever.

The doctrine of the Trinity arose because Christians confessed that what Jesus said was true, even when it did not make sense to them. This approach always helps us to understand wonderful, lucid truths about God that often make good sense to humans.

But in the case of the Trinity, it is confusing. When it comes to the Trinity, there is really nothing on Earth we can look to that helps us to understand it. It is a doctrine that must be confessed, rather than understood.

I don"t believe there are contradictions in what Jesus said. What Jesus says aligns perfectly with the model of the Trinity which I have just presented to Pro. I believe that your chief complaint isn"t that it is inconsistent, but rather that it does not make sense to you.
Posted by Lucian09474 3 years ago
Lucian09474
He also said in mark 24: 32-36

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

How if he is God he does not know everything? Doesnt God supposed to know all of this?

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Jhn 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

How can YHWH be not shy about saying he is God, and Jesus says that he will go back to God? How can I come back to myself? My main ignorance is with the Holy Spirit, I havent been in church recently so I lost some doctrine about how the Holy Spirit fits all of these.

Also I apologize for the citations. My bible is not in english so I had to google them to get them in you guys language.
Posted by Lucian09474 3 years ago
Lucian09474
I disagree with both Con and Pro. I believe that God is not Jesus. I believe that God is one only and God's name is YHWH "I Am Who I Am". Yeshua AKA Jesus is his son the one who he sent down on earth for us, and The Holy Spirit as the pure manifestation of God's power.

The main thing with Jesus is that he contradicted himself many times in all 4 gospels about his status as the Father for instance.

John 14:7-10 [7]"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8]"Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." " [9]"Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? "[10]"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 10:30 ""I and the Father are one."

John 14:11 "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

He clearly agree with the statement that he and YHWH are one. But I do not see the holy spirit involved in this at all. However he contradicted himself when "God" said

"In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; and a voice came out of the heavens: 'You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.'" Mark 1:9-11

"The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him ... Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?" John 8:29, 46
Posted by philochristos 3 years ago
philochristos
"Trinity- God is divided into three separate, co-equal, and co-eternal entities or beings commonly refereed to as the father, son, and Holy Ghost."

This is incorrect. The Trinity makes a distinction in persons, but not in being. A more correct definition would be something like this: "There are three separate and distinct, co-equal-, and co-eternal persons (namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), who are one being (namely, God)."
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