The Instigator
ASB
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
gavin.ogden
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

Otto Graham v. Johnny Unitas

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/19/2011 Category: Sports
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,075 times Debate No: 14429
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (3)

 

ASB

Pro

Graham pro,
Unitas con,
say yes to accept debate.
gavin.ogden

Con

I have accepted this debate, and am left at the mercy of Pro to lay down the rules. I will be arguing for the great hall of famer quarterback, Johnny Unitas.

To allow for a fair share of the rounds, I pass the opening round to ASB to duke it out for Old Otto Graham. Good luck to my opponent, and thanks to the readers for your time.
Debate Round No. 1
ASB

Pro

This is just like fight club, the rules are that there are no rules. There is no such rule as overdue evidence. If I or you get our first arguments defeated, there is always time to post newly found arguments to support your claim that your quarterback is better than the other.

However, in the last round, it is just purely a conclusion. Not rebuttal (last word time).

In previous arguments I was frustrated for people that I faced always had the last argument or the last word. I never had the chance to even challenge my opponents with new data.

So to keep it fair the last round will just be you and me reiterating what we have said in previous rounds.

Opening Argument:
In just ten seasons played, Otto Graham reached feats unparalleled by any NFL or AFL quarterback ever to play the game of football. Graham's NFL record of 57-13-1 (.810) is the highest winning percentage of all NFL quarterbacks to play the game.

"Automatic" Otto Graham never had failed to live up to his name, because in all ten football seasons in the AAFC and the NFL, he took his team to ten championships. That is a perfect ten for ten. No other quarterback has done this or probably will do this.

Otto Graham was the epitome of perfection not only on the field, but on the hardwood as well. Yes, Otto Graham also had a basketball career. He played for the then Rochester Royals (Sacramento Kings) and won a championship there in one season.

Otto Graham has won more championships than any quarterback in the history of the game. And he accomplished this feat in just ten seasons. This is remarkable.

People considered the NFL to be more superior to the AFL at the time of Otto Graham. Probably the more remembered game of his career is the game where the Browns defeated to storied Packers 27-0 putting the AFL on the map after the merger.
gavin.ogden

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for a strong first round, and hope I may force my opponent to uphold his burden. I will simply argue for Johnny O in this round and refute my opponent's arguments in my final round, as per the rules my opponent has instated.

First of all, I would like to say that while I can appreciate, and have immense respect for Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas was a superior quarterback, and did much more for professional football. Let me elaborate...

To this day, Johnny Unitas holds the record for consecutive games with a touchdown pass, at 47. That means for nearly 4 consecutive seasons, he threw for at LEAST one touchdown in every game. This record is often compared to Joe DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak Eat your heart out Tom Brady.

Also, Johnny O was the league MVP in 57', 59', 64', and 67'. He led his team to a super bowl victory in 1970.

By the way, a little known fact is that He also played on a semi pro team during his off time with the colts. He played on all three side of ball, as he played quarterback, safety, AND punter for merely $6 a game. This guy was tough as nails, and is still regarded as one of the best to ever play the game. He was the first Quarterback, ever, to throw for over 40,000 yards, as well as the first to throw for 30 touchdowns in a season. Moreover, I believe that players are the best at judging their own, and on the 50 year anniversary of the NFL, he was voted the leagues all time greatest player. Please bear in mind that he was not voted the best quarterback, but the best overall player. After all, this debate is not limited to the quarterback position. He was also rated football's all time number one quarterback by Sporting news in 2004, and was ranked number 32 in ESPN's "Fifty Greatest ATHLETES of the 20th Century" in 1999.

Unitas went to a then record 10 pro bowls, only to be eclipsed by Brett Favre in 2009. He had 118 regular season wins, and was only eclipse by Fran Tarkenton, until the modern 16 game schedule prevailed. Since then, only Marino, Elway, Favre, and Manning have surpassed that mark.

He finished his 17 NFL seasons with 2,830 completions in 5,186 passes for 40,239 yards and 290 touchdowns, with 253 interceptions. He also rushed for 1,777 yards and 13 touchdowns. He was inducted into the hall of fame in 1979.

Although Graham was a phenomenal quarterback in his league, and for his time, Johnny Unitas was a better football player and did more for the sport. For the sake of fairness, I will not make rebuttals until the next round, but I hope the readers are aware that Unitas is more widely regarded as the better quarterback, and I happen to agree.

I look forward to my opponent's rebuttals, and would like to thank him for his time, as well as the audience for theirs. With that, I will pass...

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.pro-football-reference.com...
http://www.nfl.com...
Debate Round No. 2
ASB

Pro

Winning is not everything, it’s the only thing. Players will be remembered more for their winning than statistics. Otto Graham had played only 10 seasons in the game of football, this is seven less than that of Johnny Unitas.


To compare these players closer, math, is the instrument that I will use. Since Unitas played 17 seasons to Otto’s 10, I will multiply Graham’s stats by (1.7). Notice, that this is not an approach to say this is what it would have looked like if Graham played 17 seasons. This is only to compare the two hall of famer’s careers in football.


Pass attempts: Graham 2,626(1.7)= 4,462.2, Unitas= 5,186


Pass completions: Graham 1,464(1.7)=2,488.8, Unitas=2,830


Percentage: Graham =55.8%, Unitas=54.6%


Touchdowns/Interceptions: Graham 174(1.7)-135(1.7)= 295.8- 229.5, Unitas =290-253


Passing Yards: Graham 23,584(1.7)=40,092.8, Unitas= 40,239


QB Ratings: Graham= 86.6, Unitas= 81.2


This proves that while Unitas took more risks than Graham, this was why he was able to throw more yards.



Otto was more efficient.


Efficient: capable of achieving the desired result with the minimum use of resources, time, and effort.


Efficiency is paramount in a great quarterback.


According to the new stats, he passed for almost the same amount of yardage with less throws, more touchdowns, less interceptions, a better QB Rating, and a better passing percentage.


Unfortunately my man that I am debating for does not play two-way football like Unitas did.


There is a reason to agree that Unitas is placed higher in history than Graham because Unitas played way more years. That Unitas played in the legitimate NFL his whole entire career while Graham had to prove that his team belonged in the league. Or that Unitas played two- way ball like the most versatile player ever… Sammy Baugh.


In the end, I’d rather go with the sure victory than some victories carrying me through. Unitas won championships, but who in their right mind would turn down winning every single season.



Winning isn’t everything… it’s the only thing.

gavin.ogden

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for his final round. It made some good points on which I would like to elaborate. I will show the stats my opponent used:

Pass attempts: Graham 2,626(1.7)= 4,462.2, Unitas= 5,186

Pass completions: Graham 1,464(1.7)=2,488.8, Unitas=2,830

Percentage: Graham =55.8%, Unitas=54.6%

Touchdowns/Interceptions: Graham 174(1.7)-135(1.7)= 295.8- 229.5, Unitas =290-253

Passing Yards: Graham 23,584(1.7)=40,092.8, Unitas= 40,239

QB Ratings: Graham= 86.6, Unitas= 81.2

Unitas' numbers are clearly superior to Graham's except efficiency, but efficiency is not the most important aspect for a player. This brings me to the main purpose for showing these stats. These players played in different leagues for a reason. It is the same reason that there are alternate football leagues to this day, and that reason is that some players are not NFL ready. Unitas put up superior numbers in a superior league, and is regarded in the top of his class in that league. Basically, my opponent is arguing that a quarterback in the CFL with identical numbers to an NFL quarterback, is equal in talent as well. This is not the case, so, I must negate the resolution that Graham was even on the same level as Unitas, let alone the better player. All other arguments are moot, and so it stands, Johnny Unitas was a superior quarterback, when compared to Otto Graham.

I would like to thank my opponent and the readers for your time, and urge a vote for the con.
Debate Round No. 3
ASB

Pro


Conclusion:

No rebuttals, no new arguments.

Round 2:
Otto Graham had a 57-13-1 (.810) record in the NFL league which is the best percentage of all NFL quarterbacks to play the game.

Otto Graham has never failed to win a championship in his 10 years of football. He won championships in both the NFL and the AFL.

Otto Graham proved that the AFL is just as competitive in the NFL by beating the Packer franchise 27-0 in a game where people thought that the Packers would crush the Browns.

Otto Graham won more championships than any quarterback in history in just 10 seasons.

Round 3:
Winning is not everything, it is the only thing, Graham won in both the NFL and the AFL. Graham played seven seasons less than Unitas.

When we compare these two players to a seventeen year stat line, Unitas threw way more passes but had less touchdowns, more interceptions, an inferior QB Rating, and passing percentage, and also had a 132 yrd avantage over Graham.

According to the statistics used in round 3, Unitas threw 724 passes to get that 132yrd advantage.

Therefore it is clear that the only reason why Unitas is higher ranking than Graham is because Unitas played longer, played two-way football, and played in the NFL every single year.

Otto Graham, won every championship in the NFL and AFL. Of course the NFL championships are an equivalent to the Super Bowl today for the Super Bowls of now were not introduced until later.

In the end, I would rather take a quarterback who won every championship rather it be the AFL or NFL than a quarterback that can play two-way football and won sometimes.

Winning is not everything, it is the only thing.
gavin.ogden

Con

I would like to sincerely thank ASB for a solid debate, and hope that we may do it again very soon. With that said, I will conclude my debate with just a few rebuttals, and will not use any new arguments for fairness' sake.

My opponent claims that the Graham proved the equality of the AFL to the NFL, simply by winning a single game against the Packers. This phenomenon is often referred to as a fluke, or an upset victory. This happens everyday and in every sport, but in no way affirms my opponent's position.

I quote my opponent:" When we compare these two players to a seventeen year stat line, Unitas threw way more passes but had less touchdowns, more interceptions, an inferior QB Rating, and passing percentage, and also had a 132 yrd avantage over Graham."
My opponent has tried to intentionally deceive the readers by stating that Graham threw more touchdown passes. After carefully reviewing the statistics, Graham threw 174 TD's and Unitas threw for 290.

Unitas played for 17 years and Graham played for 10. I am pretty sure that longevity is a VERY important trait for any athlete and is not to be undervalued by inflating stat lines. After all, I could argue that Barry Sanders was the best running back of all time, but his shortened career will forever taint his legacy, as perhaps Otto Graham's will as well.

My final quote from my opponent should wrap this debate up: "Therefore it is clear that the only reason why Unitas is higher ranking than Graham is because Unitas played longer, played two-way football, and played in the NFL every single year."
Do I need to elaborate on this at all? These are all concrete reasons why a player would be considered "better." I agree with my opponent that these are important qualities that clearly separated Unitas as a superior football player, and therefore I must urge a vote for Johnny Unitas of the Baltimore Colts. He clearly stood out from all other quarterbacks of his time, and is still celebrated by fans all over the country.

Thanks again to my opponent, and to the readers for your time, and I hope everyone had as much fun as I did.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by ASB 6 years ago
ASB
your right bluesteel, got a little carried away
Posted by bluesteel 6 years ago
bluesteel
RFD: gavin does a good job answering that the AAFC was inferior to the NFL and that the Packers game could have been a fluke. However, gavin never answers the argument that Graham won the championship in all of his NFL seasons, whereas, according to gavin, Unitas only won one in 1970. gavin could/should have made the argument that winning the championship was easier in Graham's day - ASB alludes to this fact.

btw, Graham didn't win the championship every single time
http://en.wikipedia.org...
In his 6 NFL seasons, he reached the championship game in all six, but only won the championship game 3 times.
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
Both sides presented their arguments well, but Con put forth a stronger case in both detail provided as as to why such details were relevant in a vs debate, though I would have liked to see more argument as to what makes a superior player as that is more interesting than the statistics themselves.
Posted by Cobo 6 years ago
Cobo
RFD
Conduct-tied
Spelling and Grammar-Tied
Agruments-Con(It was neck and neck till pro's final speech, Con really took advantage of his stats)
Sources-Con(Pro stated none, so he could be BS those numbers even though his stats still helped Con)
Posted by gavin.ogden 6 years ago
gavin.ogden
I appreciate the debate, and I thank you for your conduct. Lately, I have encountered very poor conduct, and actually exhibited some myself, when I waited until the last 5 hours to post my final round. Subsequently, my computer crashed and my round was lost. I have a feeling this one will be close, and you put forward a respectable final round.
Posted by ASB 6 years ago
ASB
That last round was the best i could do.

gg
Posted by gavin.ogden 6 years ago
gavin.ogden
Sorry it took so long. My computer died last night, so I lost all my arguments for this debate, as well as forfeiting a round in another debate, which was somewhat shameful. I hope I was able to put together a cohesive argument with limited time. Good luck for rebuttals, ASB.
Posted by ASB 6 years ago
ASB
thank you gavin!!!
i await your argument
Posted by gavin.ogden 6 years ago
gavin.ogden
Excellent first round, sir! This is going to be an enjoyable debate.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by bluesteel 6 years ago
bluesteel
ASBgavin.ogdenTied
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Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
ASBgavin.ogdenTied
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Vote Placed by Cobo 6 years ago
Cobo
ASBgavin.ogdenTied
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Total points awarded:05