The Instigator
Anonymous
Pro (for)
Losing
16 Points
The Contender
Tatarize
Con (against)
Winning
42 Points

Our constitution has been raped, and we might as well write a new one simply saying "screw God".

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/12/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,417 times Debate No: 3194
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (6)
Votes (18)

 

Anonymous

Pro

Seperation of Church and state never existed in our constitution, it was a term coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter he wrote to congress, and he was referring to the state controlling peoples religion. Nowhere in our constitution, or in that letter, does it say anything about our governments ability or lack thereof to engage in, endorse, facilitate, or in any way be involved with any religion whatsoever. Our nation's founding fathers WERE Christians, and while we weren't founded as a Christian nation, we were founded on Christian principles. Some arrogant atheist (Scarlett Ohara) gets offended that her child has to see prayer and so she sues AND WINS??? This is what started the whirlwind.

Now this is where people say, "Public schools are for learning not religion"

My response to this is twofold

A: Your lack of religion is no more important or educational than my relationship with God. Why should prayer or devotionals not be allowed in school? You want to pray to shiva, go ahead, I wont bother you.

B: Our nation's public schools speak for themselves. You removed God from our kids education, and with him the concept of absolute morality. You can argue there is no such thing as absolute morality, if that is the case we should have no laws and no police because if you can murder your baby just because he isnt born yet why cant I murder you? Our nation has been getting worste an worste, and everyone is like "oh it has nothing to do with that".

DENIAL

We grew and thrived as one nation under God. We are one of the most powerful nations on Earth, even though we are one of the youngest. Since we kicked God out of society more and more we are losing our standards, our family unit, our worldwide reputation, and ourselves. Atheism is just as much "just your opinion/belief" as is any religion, and to try and elevate your own beliefs above everyone elses while simultaneously telling everyone else to keep their stupid opinions at home is called...um...HYPOCRISY

Then there is freedom of speech. Do you think the writers of our constitution had virtual child pornography in mind? Do you think they were looking out for the rights of a bunch of white-hooded inbreds advocating hate and violence? Anyone can say whatever they want, so long as it isn't a religious statement. There have been 2 national coverage stories over the past year of Valedictorians (One in PA and one I think was Michigan) thanking God in their V speech and having been removed from stage. That lesbian chick can insult Jesus at her little awards show to show her disdain for Christianity, but a judge cant choose to hang the 10 commandments in his courtroom.

Once again, hypocrisy. Fortunately for you guys, atheism is much more profitable to the government than most religions are.
Tatarize

Con

The separation of church and state is contained in the first amendment of the constitution.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

The term itself was first used in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists as an explanation of the goals they were setting. The first amendment categorically prevents the state from forcing a religion on you or keeping you from your religion. There is a body setup to judge the intent of the document: the Supreme Court. They are pretty clear that all of those things are prohibited. Engaging, endorsing, and facilitating a religion, prevents the free exercise of other religions as well as respect the establishments of some religion. If the government endorses Islam, that isn't fair to your beliefs.

Many founding fathers were Christian, several were not. They were also all white, land-owning, men. Perhaps this argument would better be made that this nation was founded as a white nation, on white principles (the enlightenment was primarily the work of white men). If the government has any push towards something that endorses a religion over another religion or religion over nonreligion it is unconstitutional

The Rose Garden in the White House does not endorse any religion, there are no devotionals, no prayers, no idols... is the Rose Garden atheistic? Does it advocate atheism?

Our nation's public schools are PUBLIC! They are agents of the government. They cannot deny you your rights and are bound by the law. They cannot endorse religions anymore than congress can (by the 14th amendment)

As for absolute morality, I'm having an argument in another forum where a religionist is arguing that slavery is perfectly moral because the Bible says it is acceptable.

Actually this only became "one nation under God" in 1954. That phrase is, by the way, unconstitutional (you should expect to hear about Doe v. Rio Linda's decision sometime in the next few months).

You may not advocate a religion via government machinery. Society is freely as Christian as it wants to be and the government must remain neutral.

If atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color.

Unfavorable speech is the only speech anybody ever needs to protect. Nobody will ever need assistance to say something everybody agrees with.

A graduation is an event held by a government body. It cannot be seen to endorse a religion. Having a girl tell a bunch of people why they need to accept Jesus is not acceptable. Thanking God would be acceptable; she was preaching. Kathy Griffith was mocking all the people who "thank Jesus" for their awards at a private function with no ties to government. A courtroom is a government body.

-- Oy, I'm getting pretty tired of explaining this. The bill of rights protect the people from the government.

----

Our constitution has not been violated sexually or otherwise. Our constitution has been properly applied. If you think about it, would you want a government forcing religion on people? Would you want a government forcing people away from religion? If you wanted to create a government which most people could subscribe to, what religious laws would you enact? Oddly enough, anybody who honestly answers those questions would have a perfectly secular government which categorically does not take sides on religious issues.

Further, screw God would make a great bumper-sticker but a bad constitution. I don't think we would do well to do that.
Debate Round No. 1
Anonymous

Pro

Anonymous forfeited this round.
Tatarize

Con

You have a radically warped view of what the constitution does and says. The purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the people from the government so in situations where a government official in a government capacity is attempting to influence religious, political, or other rights or curtail free speech or the press they are to to be stopped.

Public schools cannot "speak for themselves" they are restrained by the bill of rights from speaking on issues that the people at large cannot agree with. You cannot have a school sit a child down and force them to read the Koran or pray to Shiva, Jesus, or Zeus.

If you wanted to make government rules for dealing with religion, almost undoubtedly you'd end up with the same rules we have today.

Our constitution is being enforced.
Debate Round No. 2
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Anonymous 9 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah, sorry about that. Sleep got in the way. I wasn't going to repeat myself anyways. Circular reasoning isn't worth it.
Posted by Novan_Leon 9 years ago
Novan_Leon
Unfortunately, although I agree with the Instigator in premise, the debate has been forfeit in favor of the Contender and thus will be forced to vote appropriately.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Although I do agree that the constitution has problems, they are not the same ones pro advocates, besides which, who would rape the constitution and get a paper cut? :D
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"You removed God from our kids education, and with him the concept of absolute morality. "

Not only does the concept of absolute morality not depend on god, but the usual concept of god (omnipotent and omniscient being) cancels the point of morality because once you establish such an arbiter nothing you do can really matter. You enslave yourself to the deity or die by it's whim, morality can't show up in that. Free will can't show up in that.

Absolute morality depends on man's ability to perceive objective reality, reason from it, and act on it in order to live.
Posted by sethgecko13 9 years ago
sethgecko13
"Once again, hypocrisy. Fortunately for you guys, atheism is much more profitable to the government than most religions are."

Huh?

Christian Products and Services Now a $4.5 Billion Business.
PR Newswire | September 7, 2007

"WEST DES MOINES, Iowa, Sept. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- According to statistics released earlier this summer, religious books were the publishing industry's fastest-growing category last year, with Bible sales alone exceeding 25 million copies. And that's just the tip of the iceberg for the $4.5 billion Christian products industry,* which runs the gamut from books and videos to toys, games and, now, even insurance."

Suggested listening:

http://www.npr.org...
Posted by Vi_Veri 9 years ago
Vi_Veri
It wasn't nice of you insulting atheists on the get go, pro. You lost my vote automaticly for being the ignorant one.

Good luck, con, you have a better argument and my vote as well.
18 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Tatarize 7 years ago
Tatarize
AnonymousTatarizeTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by the-mad-ones 9 years ago
the-mad-ones
AnonymousTatarizeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Anonymous 9 years ago
Anonymous
AnonymousTatarizeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Novan_Leon 9 years ago
Novan_Leon
AnonymousTatarizeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by bobsatthepub 9 years ago
bobsatthepub
AnonymousTatarizeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by oboeman 9 years ago
oboeman
AnonymousTatarizeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by liberalconservative 9 years ago
liberalconservative
AnonymousTatarizeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by sadolite 9 years ago
sadolite
AnonymousTatarizeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by PreacherFred 9 years ago
PreacherFred
AnonymousTatarizeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
AnonymousTatarizeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03