The Instigator
izbo10
Con (against)
Winning
39 Points
The Contender
BangBang-Coconut
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points

Our founding fathers would have agreed that this is a christian nation

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/22/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,708 times Debate No: 17192
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (37)
Votes (8)

 

izbo10

Con

First round will be acceptance, My opponent will attempt to argue that the founders believed this was a christian nation and that we were founded as such. I will counter that argument and show it was not. It will not be enough to demonstrate a founder was christian but you must show they founded this nation on christianity.
BangBang-Coconut

Pro

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
izbo10

Con

First we must establish who our founding fathers are, I will say that some of the most important are Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Ben Franklin, James Madison, John Adams, John Jay, and Alexander Hamilton. So we must establish what these figures thought about the founding of this country.

Lets start with a few quotes from Thomas Jefferson:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" Letter to von Humboldt, 1813

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.

It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist



This doesn't sound like a Christian founding this country on Christianity.


Lets move to Ben Franklin:

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

Some volumes against Deism fell into my hands. They were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's Lecture. It happened that they produced on me an effect precisely the reverse of what was intended by the writers; for the arguments of the Deists, which were cited in order to be refuted, appealed to me much more forcibly than the refutation itself. In a word, I soon became a thorough Deist


So from his quotes we find that he was a deist and had no use for Christianity, so he certainly would not agree he was working for a christian nation.

Now we move onto James Madison:

The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.
-- James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, "Essays In Addition to America's Real Religion"

And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
-- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, in Saul K Padover, ed, The Complete Madison: His Basic Writings (1953), also; from Jack N Rakove, ed, James Madison: Writings, (1999), p. 789, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

For my final example in the first round we will go to John Adams:

This one deserves special attention, one of our first foreign policies put in when he was president

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [formation of the American governments] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven


So there we have it 3 of the biggest founding fathers clearly stating there opinion on christianity and how this country was founded. They clearly are not under the impression this country was founded as a christian nation.
BangBang-Coconut

Pro

BangBang-Coconut forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
izbo10

Con

My opponent looks to have forfeited, so first round arguments stands. The founding fathers were a collection of at least deists and some christians who did not found this country on Christianity.
BangBang-Coconut

Pro

BangBang-Coconut forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
37 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
Jay and Hamilton were Christians, the rest were Deists. Jefferson strongly favored Christ as a philosopher, and the Deists were generally friendly towards Christians as a source of moral teaching. Still, the founding documents are notably lacking in Christian references, and it's doubtful the Founders thought the country was a "Christian nation." I suspect they would have endorsed "religious nation" as a descriptor, however.

"Faith of the Founders: Religion and the New Nation 1776-1826" by Edwin S. Gaustad is an excellent reference on the subject.
Posted by phantom 5 years ago
phantom
MIG I would have voted for izbo if my identity was confirmed.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
Izbo10 has unfairly won due to forfeits. It is a misjustice to this website if he gets the upper hand through such easy means...
Posted by phantom 5 years ago
phantom
bangbang-coconut is not his multi account I assure you. Lol
Posted by Double_R 5 years ago
Double_R
Anyone think he will still get into more debates, being that he can't even get a win by arguing with himself?
Posted by Cobo 5 years ago
Cobo
LMFAO. Noyone wants to give him the victory even through forfiets.
Posted by BennyW 5 years ago
BennyW
It's been 9 hours and still no one has voted, I wonder why?
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
Sadly, Ibzbo10 will win, just because of forfeits. It's a sad day for America as they mourn the rise of the devil.
Posted by izbo10 5 years ago
izbo10
He has debated more on here then me, this is only one site, their is world out there and when you make stupid arguments he should expect to be called stupid.
Posted by phantom 5 years ago
phantom
Okay I don't want to fill up this debate with things totally unrelated. So this is the last thing I'm going to say. Also this is totally childish...

Saying that grape is an f'n moron is truly one of the most idiotic and totally ignorant things I have heard someone say on this site. There are few people better at debating than him on this website.
You have lost more than him and he's debated more than 10 times as much as you. So please would stop saying stupid things.
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
izbo10BangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiutre
Vote Placed by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
izbo10BangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by Cerebral_Narcissist 5 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
izbo10BangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited, default to con.
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
izbo10BangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:61 
Reasons for voting decision: Unfortunate, but easy win for Izbo10. His arguments, which could have been refuted rather easily, were left unaddressed.
Vote Placed by SuperRobotWars 5 years ago
SuperRobotWars
izbo10BangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:41 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit and Christian must be capitalized.
Vote Placed by GMDebater 5 years ago
GMDebater
izbo10BangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:41 
Reasons for voting decision: izbo had bad grammar, but his argments stood.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
izbo10BangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit without argument. "Christian" is capitalized.
Vote Placed by Puck 5 years ago
Puck
izbo10BangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeits.