The Instigator
LatentDebater
Con (against)
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The Contender
jgman182
Pro (for)
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Out of the four main men of TBBT There was a character more desirable to be than Leonard.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/28/2013 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,003 times Debate No: 29634
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
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LatentDebater

Con

The Big Bang theory (TV Show) is what I am referring to.

There is a reason that I made this in such a way that the burden of proof is on the contender.

The reason is that this could other turn into an 'everyone is equal' irrefutable unfalsifiable argument by con that shift unimaginable burden of proof onto me without them even making a case for any of the other three characters.

I shall now wait and see who will raise their case for a character and hen begin addressing this as con. I even will allow them to debate in last round because I'm just that pessimistic that I reckon they'd do it regardless of my say on the matter.

Don't lie about the characters, please be honest throughout debate.

Sheldon is the most intelligent and least happy of the four.
Raj is the selective mute who is unable to find love due to this life-inhibiting condition.
Howard is the pervert who never has found love until very last episodes and in fact has may times shown through crying that his life sucked as a kid.
Leonard is the lactose-intolerant (I am too, this is a minimal inferiority to others compared with theirs to him) pessimistic quiet genius, second most intelligent, who although the least apparently aggressive is the only one who actually gets laid the most, by the hottest women and ends up in a stable relationship with the girl of his dreams.

I suspect you'll pick Howard... Although my natural pessimism leads me to doubt my instincts... Sigh... I don't know...

Anyway, RAISE YOUR CASE!
jgman182

Pro

Before I begin, I would like to accept the con's definitions of all four main characters of The Big Bang Theory.

Based on the statement of the resolved, I also believe the burden of proof falls on the negative to prove beyond all doubt that Leonard is the most desirable character to be on The Big Bang Theory. Since this is a double-negative resolved, the affirmative needs only to show- not prove- that ANY of the other three main men are more desirable, and aff has won this debate. The negative, on the other hand, has the burden of proof in this debate to prove that Leonard is a better person to be than ALL of the other main men in The Big Bang Theory. Therefore, if even one aff contention remains out of the three, regardless of how many contentions the negative holds at the end of the round, the affirmative has won.

1. Sheldon Cooper is a more desirable character to be than Leonard Hofstadter.

a. NATURAL SELECTION- Charles Darwin dictates through his theory of natural selection that those with best (most dominant) traits within are, by default, those who have the highest chance of perpetuation. The negative conceded to the fact that Sheldon Cooper has a higher I.Q. Level than Leonard, and by this basis alone is more desirable as a mate than Leonard is likely to be.

b. PERCEIVED QUALITY OF LIFE- Sheldon Cooper has a blissful ignorance of everything and everyone around him. While he has a lack of social knowledge and often may present himself in situations that might be considered awkward, his inherent inability to recognize these situations places the holder of Sheldon's mindset in arguably the best possible place out of the four main men. For example, as evidenced by the season 6 opening episode, Sheldon, though aware he is on a date with his girlfriend, is blatantly unaware of social concessions he is supposed to partake in (such as pulling out Amy's chair when he sits down). As the seasons have progressed in the series, Sheldon has become a more relaxed, easygoing character while still maintaining his extremely high level of intellect.

c. POSSIBILITY FOR IMPROVEMENT- As referred to in subpoint B, despite all of Sheldon's anachronisms, he still has managed to acquire a group of friends, a girlfriend, and many other accolades in his field of work. This opens the door for an immense amount of improvement in Sheldon's personality. Though there is a large amount of improvement Sheldon can make to his personality, the fact that Sheldon is able to accomplish as much as his friends and still keep his personality in check means that, eventually, his personality is likely to normalize itself to that of the rest of the group, providing for infinitely many opportunities for life enhancement.

2. Howard Wolowitz is a more desirable character to be than Leonard Hofstadter.

a. THE BENEFITS OF MARRIAGE- Howard is married to Bernadette Rostenkowski, who is, far and above, smarter that Wolowitz himself. This means that Wolowitz can become dependent on Bernadette, who can provide a steady income, an unrelenting lust for him, as well as a reasonably accommodating lifestyle that would be found acceptable.

b. HIS MOTHER- Even if things in Wolowitz's life were to spiral out of control, Howard still maintains close, enduring contact with his mother. Mrs. Wolowitz, though taken for granted, actually has provided Howard with a very accommodating lifestyle, enhancing his quality of life tenfold. While Wolowitz lived in his mother's house, he slept in a large, familiar setting, ate meals for free, was given rides wherever he pleased... the list goes on and on. If ever anything were to happen to Howard, Mrs. Wolowitz would be his lifeline- and a prime factor which Leonard does not have.

3. Leonard Hofstadter is an unpreferable character to be.

a. CONSCIOUS AWARENESS- Leonard is the most aware of the four main men of his "nerdiness", and as such has a difficulty adjusting in his life. From the beginning of the series, Leonard has always been uneasy with his niche in the world, often wondering what life would be like if he weren't smart. His quality of life is severely below that of Sheldon or Howard, and as such makes his character unpreferable.

b. SHELDON- Leonard is roommates with Sheldon Cooper. Cooper, though improving his personality, is still a controlling roommate to Leonard. At times, Leonard abides by Cooper's rules without objection, but in many of these instances, Leonard is either stressed, annoyed, or both. This does not negate the 1st AFF contention in it of itself because, while Sheldon's perspective is that of happiness and blissful ignorance whenever he socializes with Leonard, Leonard feels the polar opposite of this perspective. Living in an apartment with Cooper is highly unpreferable, and since Leonard is cursed with this, his character is unpreferable to become.
Debate Round No. 1
LatentDebater

Con

I never asserted that Leonard was the most desirable character and thus you have full burden of proof.

"Sheldon Cooper has a higher I.Q. Level than Leonard, and by this basis alone is more desirable as a mate than Leonard is likely to be." Firstly there is no evidence supplied to show that higher IQ means higher mating appeal (considering he didn't really get laid ever, even by his 'girlfriend'). Sheldon Cooper seems to be completely undesirable as a mate based on Penny, and all other female's, reactions. Amy seems to only be with him due to the fact she is unable to find a more sufficient partner (in fact I believe this was actually stated in their 'contract' of relationship terms.

"Sheldon Cooper has a blissful ignorance of everything and everyone around him." Prove that it is blissful.

"As the seasons have progressed in the series, Sheldon has become a more relaxed, easy-going character while still maintaining his extremely high level of intellect." I totally think the opposite. So please do prove this to be true.

"Despite all of Sheldon's anachronisms, he still has managed to acquire a group of friends, a girlfriend, and many other accolades in his field of work." Leonard got more friends, a hotter girlfriend who he actually physically and emotionally interacts with at about twice the speed of Sheldon.

"Though there is a large amount of improvement Sheldon can make to his personality, the fact that Sheldon is able to accomplish as much as his friends" This is a self-contradictive statement.

"eventually, his personality is likely to normalize itself to that of the rest of the group" Sheldon doesn't seem to have altered one bit. If anything it is everyone else who tries to alter to hide their annoyance at the bastard.

"Howard Wolowitz is a more desirable character to be than Leonard Hofstadter." This is an assertion without evidence.

"Howard is married to Bernadette Rostenkowski, who is, far and above, smarter that Wolowitz himself. This means that Wolowitz can become dependent on Bernadette, who can provide a steady income, an unrelenting lust for him, as well as a reasonably accommodating lifestyle that would be found acceptable." If you have seen TBBT it is 100% clear that Penny has far more willingness to be lustful with Leonard than miss Christian Bernadette. As for the fact that Holowitz is the inferior, more dependent member of the arrangement I think this proves that Leonard is more dominant and able to leave the relationship he is in far easier, than Howard can leave his, if things don't go his way.

"Even if things in Wolowitz's life were to spiral out of control, Howard still maintains close, enduring contact with his mother." Leonard is practically his mother's only friend and she is about 100x smarter and capable to intellectually advise and assist him than Howard's mom because she is a flat out genius.

"Mrs. Wolowitz, though taken for granted, actually has provided Howard with a very accommodating lifestyle, enhancing his quality of life tenfold." There is a catch that he has to do household chores and has no independence as she often still thinks he goes to school and forces him to tell her who he is seeing and what he is doing despite being over 30.

"While Wolowitz lived in his mother's house, he slept in a large, familiar setting, ate meals for free, was given rides wherever he pleased" Howard was never driven anywhere by his mother, he drove her anywhere SHE wanted on demand, with even less power to say no than Leonard has for Sheldon. Howard is practically a slave to his mother having to beg to marry a Christian to begin with. The accommodation might cost no money but it costs his freedom. He has to obey her at all times.

"If ever anything were to happen to Howard, Mrs. Wolowitz would be his lifeline- and a prime factor which Leonard does not have." Erm firstly no evidence of the first being true and secondly the second is false. Leonard has a mother who is a high-flying psychologist with a Ph.D and can advise Leonard on absolutely anything he needs to know on human intellect and can financially support him in a very practical manner as she is emotionally unresponsive and intellectually superior to Mrs. Wolowitz.

"Leonard Hofstadter is an unpreferable character to be." this is relative to who?

"Leonard is the most aware of the four main men of his "nerdiness", and as such has a difficulty adjusting in his life." Raj s so aware he can't talk around women and Howard compensates for it by just being an all out pervert or only being able to date online for most of his life until he happened to meet someone more nerdy than himself. At the end of the day, Leonard gets the hottest and most desirable woman (which Howard admits he envies by a huge degree until he meets Bernadette and this was only due to Penny's doing).

"From the beginning of the series, Leonard has always been uneasy with his niche in the world" So have Howard and Raj (especially Raj).

"often wondering what life would be like if he weren't smart." completely false and no evidence supplied.

"His quality of life is severely below that of Sheldon or Howard" Out of those three he has the hottest girlfriend, he and his girlfriend have the most frequent sex, he is the most socially acceptable member out of those three as Sheldon is hopeless socially and Howard is perverted and is unable to hide it. So I call this false.

"At times, Leonard abides by Cooper's rules without objection, but in many of these instances, Leonard is either stressed, annoyed, or both." It is , in fact, Leonard's remarkable emotional resilience to overcome any level of stress or discomfort that makes him so much more desirable to be than the other three who, Howard and Raj can't stand Sheldon and Sheldon can't stand Howard. Leonard is loved by all and loves all back and this is the inherent social advantage he has over the other three, he is the social god of them.

"Living in an apartment with Cooper is highly unpreferable, and since Leonard is cursed with this, his character is unpreferable to become." Wrong. Leonard's remarkable ability to cope with the million long list of rules, with Sheldon’s quirky behaviour and to not at all be embarrassed that Sheldon is his friend no matter who he meets shows how socially mature he really is compared to the other three. Raj and Howard (especially) always complain about Sheldon like whiny babies and couldn't cope even a quarter as well as Leonard does with hardship.

Leonard has had a mother who barely loved him (and hence has experience in dealing with Sheldon-types which makes him basically a social expert beyond almost any human's limit of coping with tough people). His mother is purely practical and intelligent and is thus a superior mother functionally to Wolowitz's who uses him as a slave.

You have not met your burden of proof and have instead, even though I clearly stated this before you accepted it, now suddenly decided to try to shift it onto me.
You are proposing the idea, I am merely poking holes in your argument.

The BOP lies solely on your shoulders.

jgman182

Pro

I'll go down the list of my opponent's arguments, rebut them, and then I'll proceed to crystallize my own case.

To begin, the resolved states that "Out of the four main men of TBBT there was a character more desirable to be than Leonard".

By this standard, the ONLY job of the affirmative is to show that any one of the main men of the TBBT is more desirable to be than Leonard. Leonard need not be the least desirable, he need only not be the MOST desirable. In this way, the burden of proof falls on the negative to prove that Leonard is THE MOST desirable of the four main men of the show, and if he cannot do this, then he has not won this debate.


"There is no evidence supplied to show that higher IQ means higher mating appeal"-
Au contrare, my friend. Social Darwinism dictates that women will eventually- EVENTUALLY- gravitate toward men of higher intelligence. The fact that Penny does not desire Sheldon as a mate is completely irrelevant to the overall argument of Sheldon's desirability because Penny does not and cannot compete with Sheldon on an intellectual level. Amy did not have to sign her "girlfriend contract" if she genuinely did not like Sheldon as a sexual partner. It has proven many times throughout the series, in fact (remember when Amy worried about Sheldon and Alex?) that she does like Sheldon as a sexual partner, and her desire to have sex with Sheldon only strengthens this bond. The con point falls.

"Prove that [Sheldon's ignorance] is blissful"- The fact that Sheldon has made no conscious effort to change means that any social tension to change his behavior regarding social ineptitude has completely flown over Sheldon's head. Sheldon's ignorance is that of bliss because he sees his life as an exemplum. The con point falls.

"I totally think the opposite: [that Sheldon is NOT relaxed]. Please prove this to be true"- Since the negative has not responded to this point with an argument, rather a request for proof, I declare this point to be conceded to the pro. However, should this not be sufficient proof, the mere fact that Sheldon has a girlfriend has proven he has been willing to release at least some inhibition regarding social tendencies. This proves a more relaxed nature, if only marginally. Point goes to the pro.

"Leonard got more friends, a hotter girlfriend... at about twice the speed of Sheldon"- The point about Sheldon's accolades remains uncontested, and is therefore conceded to the pro. In terms of friends, Sheldon doesn't perceive the need to have friends, and is therefore more satisfied with his social life than Leonard is. This falls back to the point about Sheldon's blissful ignorance; on the outside, one might see Sheldon as a socially inept freak, but on the inside Sheldon perceives his world to run around him- exactly the way he likes it. Point goes to the pro.

"[Sheldon] doesn't seem to have altered one bit]"- There is a noticeable shift in personality from uptight and reclusive in Season 1 to snobbish and arrogant in Seasons 2-4 to calmer, yet still snobbish in Season 5 to joyful, whistful, yet still arrogant in Season 6.

"Leonard is practically his mother's only friend and she is about 100x smarter and capable to intellectually advise and assist him than Howard's mom because she is a flat out genius"- All true, but my opponent forgets the most important part of motherhood: love and care for her child. Though Mrs. Wolowitz may be at times annoying, she still shows undenying affection toward her son. Mrs. Hofstadter, on the other hand, is a cold, wretched woman who could care less about her son's pursuits because she has more important matters on her mind. Therefore, though Mrs. Wolowitz is clearly dumber than Mrs. Hofstadter, she is, overall, a better mother to her son. This makes Howard's life comparatively better, and the point goes to the pro on this one.

My entire Contention 3 has been rebutted without evidence, therefore I believe it stands on its own. A mere question that "Leonard is relative to who?" is not enough to disprove a contention. The entire contention should stand without argument.

I look forward to seeing some of my opponent's contentions- if he has them.
Debate Round No. 2
LatentDebater

Con

LatentDebater forfeited this round.
jgman182

Pro

jgman182 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
LatentDebater

Con

LatentDebater forfeited this round.
jgman182

Pro

jgman182 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
LatentDebater

Con

LatentDebater forfeited this round.
jgman182

Pro

jgman182 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by kingsjester 4 years ago
kingsjester
Why are you talking about TBBT as if the show is over
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