The Instigator
Vict0rian
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
PointyDelta
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Overwatch VS TF2

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/15/2016 Category: Games
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 863 times Debate No: 93754
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

Vict0rian

Pro

PRO is for Overwatch, CON is for TF2.

If you accept you will defend TF2

No trolling

You have to have played both games for at least enough time to comfortably play every class in the game.

My position:
Personally I just think Overwatch is much more polished then TF2 and that the devs of Overwatch are constantly supporting the game with updates and improvements way more then TF2. They are also testing the updates a lot better to make sure they work.
The only downside with Overwatch I see is that there is no map maker or community workshop but that may come in the future.
PointyDelta

Con

+++Rebuttal+++
'Personally I just think Overwatch is much more polished then TF2'
This is a personal opinion. This debate is about absolutes, and so this can be disregarded as there is no proof for this statement.

the devs of Overwatch are constantly supporting the game with updates and improvements way more then TF2'
Nonsense [1]. There have been at least three major patches per year for TF2 for nine years. There's also no proof behind this statement that's being made here.

'They are also testing the updates a lot better to make sure they work.'
Again, this is a baseless assumption. While it's true that MyM (Meet your Match, the most recent update to the game[2]) was terrible at release, Valve quickly fixed most of the major issues with it.

'The only downside with Overwatch I see is that there is no map maker or community workshop but that may come in the future'
That's irelevant, we're debating the state of both games now, not what could happen in the future.

+++Substantative+++


C1
That TF2 is a less forgiving game than Overwatch(will be referred to as OW for brevity) and this therefore makes the game objectively better

Let's take a simple example. That of ults and ubercharge.[3] As can clearly be seen in this video, an ult is a gamechanging mechanic which can kill the entire enemy team, hold off a push, etc. An ubercharge[4] is a similarly gamechanging mechanic, spearheading or holding off a push with invincibility, killing the entire enemy team with the Kritzkrieg, etc etc.

But this is a very instructive example of where the two games differ in terms of skill. When the medic dies, every single percentage point of his ubercharge is dropped. He has to start again from scratch, meaning that there is a very clear and definite penalty for dying beside just waiting on a respawn timer.

But in OW, when a character dies, absolutely nothing happens. Yeah, they have to wait on respawn, but they then spawn with all of their ult. This means that there is no real defined penalty for dying and overextending stupidly etc. This furthermore means that play is not as intelligent, and this pairs with Widowmaker (who will be discussed in C2) to mean that the meta is simply reckless and unintelligent play.

Another good example is rocket jumping[5]. This extremely high skill cap move which signifcantly increases the mobility of the Soldier class, who is otherwise very slow, can only be carried out by a specific [6] sequence of moves which is, crucially OPEN ENDED. This means that the potential for intelligent play and mobility is extremely high (as shown in source five). In OW, the class most analogous to Soldier is Pharah. This move showcase should show you what her move analogous to rocket jumping is[7]. As can clearly be seen, the analogy used a lot in arguments much like this one is

'TF2 has a very specific yet open-ended and high skill cap move to increase mobility, OW has press E to rocket jump'

C2
Widowmaker and why she's overpowered as hell and why Sniper doesn't have that problem

Sniper characters are overpowered in a movement based FPS. That's a given. A good sniper, in any game whether it be an AWPer in CS, Widow in OW, Sniper in TF2 can completely shut down movement and play with but a fully charged bodyshot. But here's why TF2 doesn't have as much of a problem with snipers as OW does.

1.) The maps. There are only a few maps in TF2 that have massive sightlines, while in OW the maps are either chokey as hell (that's a different point) or wide open. This means that Widow, with her abilty to grapple up to places to get optimal sightlines absolutely shuts down play- so much so that she is a permanent fixture on competitive teams.[8]

2.)No hard counter. In TF2, sniper has three problems.

a) Spy, the class which is meant to be a hard counter to him and has the tools to instakill him before he knows what's going on.
b)Other snipers, who he can be quickscoped by and instakilled
c)Long range spam such as rockets etc which throw off his aim.

Yes, Sniper does have the tools to deal with these - but crucially, he can only deal with one at a time, with the Razorback, DDS and Cozy Camper respectively.

Now let's look at Widowmaker. Her only counter is herself, meaning that a bad meta is established where you must run a widow to kill the other widow, then you push. That's not good for the game competitvely (which will be dealt with next round).

By this point it should be fairly apparent that the poor design of widowmaker is extremely bad for the game.

I look forward to my opponent's argument's next round!

<3



1.)https://wiki.teamfortress.com...
2.)https://wiki.teamfortress.com...
3.)https://www.youtube.com...
4.)https://wiki.teamfortress.com...
5.)https://www.youtube.com...
6.)https://wiki.teamfortress.com...
7.)http://overwatch.wikia.com...
8.)Personal experience, played in an OW league for a while before going back to TF2
9.)https://wiki.teamfortress.com...
10.)https://wiki.teamfortress.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Vict0rian

Pro

"This is a personal opinion. This debate is about absolutes, and so this can be disregarded as there is no proof for this statement."

I shouldn't have said personal opinion, Overwatch is FACTUALLY more polished then TF2. There are several reason why I think this is so.

A: The engine Overwatch plays on is specifically designed for Overwatch, where as TF2 is designed on the Source Engine which was originally made for HL2. Because of this Overwatch has much more freedom to make their game exactly how they want it, for example take a listen to their sound engine. TF2 has nothing like this:
https://www.youtube.com...

B: TF2 can be a very messy game, for instance the In-game Items are not very consistent . Some items actually have in game effects and others are purely cosmetic like the "Orignal" https://wiki.teamfortress.com...
where as when it comes to every item in Overwatch so far they are all cosmetic, there is no 'pay to win' aspects to the game at all. No matter what items you buy it will never give you an unfair advantage.

C: The controls, GUI, and menus are very nice in overwatch and very rarely confusing.I play the game in German (because I'm currently trying to learn it) and I can still easily navigate every menu without having to even read much of it. I can't say the same for TF2.

D: Finally, there's a bunch of clutter in TF2. There are a bunch of things updated to Tf2 and then immediately abandoned. For instance there's the grappling hook game mode (https://wiki.teamfortress.com...) The MvM game mode (http://www.debate.org...) medieval mode (https://wiki.teamfortress.com...) and also the Rd_asteroid which hasn't even been completed (https://wiki.teamfortress.com...) Yes there has been updates to improove some of the game modes but Valve hasn't given any good incentives to actually play them, it's very rare to even see people playing them. Overwatch hasn't done this at all, they continuously update their every game mode and make sure people keep on playing it.

"Again, this is a baseless assumption. While it's true that MyM (Meet your Match, the most recent update to the game[2]) was terrible at release, Valve quickly fixed most of the major issues with it."

It is not a baseless assumption. Overwatch goes through a ton of beta testing known as the PTR (https://playoverwatch.com...) Letting people on PC test the updates long before they're out. Its hard to tell what valve does for testing, but it clearly has failed several times, just like the most recent update like you stated.

"But in OW, when a character dies, absolutely nothing happens. Yeah, they have to wait on respawn, but they then spawn with all of their ult. This means that there is no real defined penalty for dying and overextending stupidly etc"

There is a definitely a penalty for dying in Overwatch, maybe not directly to you but it can severely impact your team especially on KOTH maps like Nepal. The reason for this is that the game is incredibly fast paced. Those few seconds it takes to respawn is all the time the enemy team needs to win the game. Also there are only 6 players on a team in Overwatch, missing one could mean a death sentence to your team especially if the one that died was a Mercy, Ana, Lucio or Reinhardt.

"Now let's look at Widowmaker. Her only counter is herself"

This is just a straight up lie. Genji, D.va, Torb, Bastion, Phara, and Winston can absolutely destroy a Widow maker. (http://overwatch.metabomb.net...)

"By this point it should be fairly apparent that the poor design of widowmaker is extremely bad for the game."

I'm gonna go a bit anecdotal here but I have not had a single problem with Widow maker. The only character that ever was painfully unbalanced was Mccree, and now he's nerved. I just have not ever seen a Widow that does what you're claiming. Keep in mind I'm level 130 and have put in over 110 hours into the game and I've never had an issue with Widow.

I suppose this is supposed to be the point where I add some more arguments to the mix but I can't really think of anything. Maybe how OW has super clean and fast match making or maybe how because of its leveling system it keeps you engaged in the game. Or maybe how many of TF2 updates were just stuff taken directly from the community workshop without valve doing any work. I don't know, ill let you say your opinion about that stuff before I get into detail. Hope to hear your response!
PointyDelta

Con


R1
OK, so the statement that is being basically made here is that OW's sound design is good. that may be so, but that still doesnt show why Overwatch is factually better. There are arguments that could be made that TF2's is in fact better (ie Uber masking) but those aren't relevant to the central contention that Overwatch is factually better than TF2 and neither is this argument.

R2
There is exactly one straight upgrade in team fortress 2, the Third Degree[1]. However, the upgrade is so pathetic that it might as well not exist. Disregarding the obvious argument that hats= skill (JOKE), the stock loadouts that any common or garden F2P can get are usually the best [2].

R3
Con states that OW is factually better and then produces an argument based entirely on personal experience.

R4
'The MvM game mode '
What? Loads of people play MvM, in fact it's now one of the more popular gamemodes.
' medieval mode'
My full (all the time) 24/7 medieval mode server[3] puts the lie to that.
'For instance there's the grappling hook game mode'
[4] There's a map that's just been added for that mode.
Oh, and Pro convieniently forgets to mention the PASS time mode, which came out of beta this update.[5]
'Valve hasn't given any good incentives to actually play them, '
Yes, because people play the game mods that they like and want to play because they can actually pick which mode and map they want to play unlike OW.

R5
The keyword in this rebuttal is the comparative. You yourself admitted 'it's hard to tell what valve does for testing'. This means that you have no proof whatever that they are not doing more than Blizzard is.

R6
'those few seconds it takes to respawn'
Yes that's exactly what I said but that's also present in TF2 except (a) respawn times are generally longer b) Medics drop uber on death, so there's more (the comparative again) of a penalty so more punishing for death so my argument still stands.

R7
[7]This video shows a moderately skilled Widow dropping half a team in the space of six seconds while being in no danger whatever herself.

'I have never seen a widowmaker'
So therefore Widowmaker doesn't have the potential to do this? Doesn't seem logical somehow.


' has super clean and fast match making '
So does TF2

+++Substantative+++
C1
Greater customization
I'm not sure if you guys could see it in the first screenshot[3], but I'm using a multitude of custom settings. [8] Here's a screenshot that demonstrates all of these. I'm using a custom HUD(heads up display) - can't do that in OW. I've also got viewmodels turned off for greater visibility (nope, can't have that as well). As well as this, I have a frame config (nope) custom hitsound (nope) fps config (nope) custom map (nope) damage numbers (nope). I also have a entirely unique cosmetic loadout (nope, you can only have skins), weapons loadout (nope), personal nametags on my stuff (nope), kill counters (nope), paints (nope), particle effects on hats (nope).

I think this proves pretty conclusively that TF2 is a customisable game, and we haven't even gotten into the ridiculous array of mods there are.

Why is this good? It's pretty simple. A game that is an open system and therefore encourages community involvement will generally have more longevity and therefore be a better game.
<3

1.)https://wiki.teamfortress.com...
2.)https://www.youtube.com... (I assume we're allowing videos)
3.)http://imgur.com... (note that this was taken at 10:30, very much not a peak time)
4.)http://tf2maps.net...
5.)https://wiki.teamfortress.com...
6.)https://wiki.teamfortress.com...
7.)https://www.youtube.com...
8.)http://imgur.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Vict0rian

Pro

So I've been really, really busy the past few days and I only have time to say a few things and then ill just do a conclusion.

1: You say there's no penalty for death besides wait time.

I already explained that wait time is a huge penalty but I've also thought of another, if you are Zarya you will loose all of your particle cannon charge (even if a mercy revives you I think)

2: You said that TF2 is more customiazble with mods...

That's the problem "with mods" is not part of the game. It is outside the game and basically irreverent. However when it comes to Overwatch you can modify each Heros controls individually, change each Heros crosshair individually, and change the color of that crosshair in the actual game. Which ends up making Overwatch the more customiazble one, because mods do shouldn't count in this debate.

And finally I'll do a quick conclusion:

I think that Overwatch is much more polished then TF2 and that the gameplay, menus, and match making are super crisp clean and easy to use, where as I think TF2 is a little more messy. I feel like when the devs behind Overwatch say they're going to do something, they do it as soon as they can and they make sure to test it with the public and that they really do listen to feed back. The team behind TF2 does listen to feedback yes but I feel like they take way to long to actually come out with valuable updates. For instance it took them a year to come out with competitive and when they released it it came out very poorly with lots of people having issues.

Tl;dr: I really like Overwatch because its clean and polished that give you lots of incentives to actually play the game and learn every class and most importantly learn how to co-operate with your team. However TF2 feels very messy to me with inconsistent aspects that just make the game confusing (I still like TF2 though)

So sorry I couldn't write more or cite any sources but I just don't have the time, hope you understand :/
PointyDelta

Con

It's been a marvellous debate which I have enjoyed immensely, so thank you very much.

+++Rebuttal+++

'mods do shouldn't count'

This sounds a lot like special pleading to me where Pro is moving the goalposts. This was not defined at the beginning (mods will be disregarded) and therefore this is unfair to me and I would ask the voters to disregard this entire rebuttal.

You can also do this fiddling with the crosshair and changing the colour 'in the actual game' [1] in TF2 as well.

The summary made by Pro is all personal opinion and can be safely ignored.

+++Summary+++
Team Fortress 2 is more customizable both in mods and the game, more competitive, longer-lived, more balanced, less forgiving.

And all these things make the game great.

Vote Con.

<3

1.)http://tinyurl.com...
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by PointyDelta 9 months ago
PointyDelta
And ad hominem. Are you really that desperate that you need to resort to that? Listen, it's fine that you've been really busy but

1.) don't take the debate if you don't have time to do it properly
2.)don't bitch about your arguments being invalid due to lack of sources
3.)there is an argument to be made that vanilla minecraft (for example) is a terrible easy game, but an excellent modding platform. Minecraft is the sum of the community, and no one would argue that modded/community servers/whatever minecraft is simply bad

You are simply ad homineming to hide your lack of actual evidence/definition of the debate. It was, however an enjoyable debate, just define the motion tighter.

Thanks.
Posted by Vict0rian 9 months ago
Vict0rian
@PointyDelta I've been incredibly busy this month and I just didn't have time to put sources up for my last argument, would you rather have had it that I just forfeited? You don't seem to grasp that were talking about video games on a simple debate site and that its not at my top priority especially since I've been so busy.

And about the mods... Were talking about what the developers of the game actually put into the game and not what the community does to it. By that logic you can take the worst game on planet earth and mod it until its actually good then argue that its a good game when in reality the game that was originally produced was garbage.

You're being really stupid. You're a waste of my time and I'm going to ignore you now.

<3
Posted by PointyDelta 10 months ago
PointyDelta
Nevertheless, my point still stands given that you failed to define no mods at the beginning of the debate. Yes, debate is about personal opinion but it is personal opinion backed up by FACTS and SOURCES. You failed to provide either, and a personal opinion is not valid by itself.

So how do I have proof for this opinion? Simple. ' To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.'

And here's a source for this, https://duckduckgo.com...

See, this is my personal opinion (that there is no place for personal opinion in debate) supported by a fact (the definition).

-_____o3
Posted by Vict0rian 10 months ago
Vict0rian
@PointyDelta Personal opinion and Biases show up in every debate. For example you appear to have the personal opinion that personal opinions shouldn't show up in debates ;)

Also just because you put a "<3" at the end of every post it doesnt make you look any kinder then you actually are.

<3
Posted by PointyDelta 10 months ago
PointyDelta
Personal opinion is never acceptable as a legit debate argument. It's on the level of anecdote as 'bad' debate arguments. There's nothing wrong with personal opinion per se, simply that you used it as a be all and end all of the argument, without supporting it.

If we were talking about the actual game, and specifically the game only, then you should have specified that in the rules. As such, you pulled out it as a restriction in the middle of the debate, which makes you look weak because you look like you can't deal with the argument.

<3
Posted by Vict0rian 10 months ago
Vict0rian
@PointyDelta Mods shouldnt count because were talking about the actual game and what the company that makes the game does, not what the fan base does. Overwatch has more customization because you can change the crosshair and controls for one character at a time which tf2 cannont do. Also the stuff I said in my conclusion wasn't all just personal opinion. Even if it was you can't just say that I should throw all of what I said out. That's ridicules and you know it. After all there would be no reason for debating if personal opinion wasn't a factor. Also, you have plenty of personal opinion on widow maker, do you not?
Posted by PointyDelta 10 months ago
PointyDelta
overwatch and every character victorian
Posted by Vict0rian 10 months ago
Vict0rian
@David_Debates Context is important... Which game and which Class/Hero are you talking about?
Posted by PointyDelta 10 months ago
PointyDelta
Hell yes it's on my friend
Posted by David_Debates 10 months ago
David_Debates
And there is a short skill ceiling for each character.
No votes have been placed for this debate.