The Instigator
muslimnomore
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
Incognito13
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Pakistan is a failed state

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
muslimnomore
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/16/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,297 times Debate No: 40694
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (1)

 

muslimnomore

Pro

My position is that Pakistan is a failed state according to the following criteria for a failed state (from: http://ffp.statesindex.org...)

1. The loss of physical control of its territory or a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.
2. Failure include the erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions
3. An inability to provide reasonable public services
4. The inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community.

I was born and raised in Pakistan. This is a country based upon and filled with lies upon lies. The founder of the country, Muhammad Ali Jinnah was hardly a Muslim and at best he was a shi'a Muslim not sunni. He had two funerals: a sunni funeral to appease the masses, and a private shi'a funeral. He was fighting for the partition of India because he was getting paid by the British to do so. The whole reason the British allowed the partition and left India is because Winston Churhill was convinced that this would be in the best interest of the UK and its allies post WWII. Jinnah used to drink alcohol and eat pork, noth of which are forbidden in Islam.
During Zia ul Haq's reign the lies rose to new levels and text books were filled with lies about India. The truth of the matter is that the goons in Pakistan's government were the instigators of all wars and aggression against India and they still are. The government doesn't really control the country. Different parts of the country are controlled by different organizations. There are areas were tribalism and feudalism reigns, there are areas where army chiefs have full control and authority. The police force is a joke.
Even Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad (arguably the most affluent cities) are without power for up to 18 hours a day. Inflation is mind-bogglingly high. There is virtually no middle class. Politicians take funds given to the country by the USA and spend it on their relatives' weddings, their own businesses and general thuggery. That's what the leaders of the country are: thugs. Even Imran Khan is a supporter of terrorist factions in the country.
I wish I could say that it is only the people in power who are at fault in Pakistan, but the fact of the matter is that the whole country is filled with people who only care about themselves and are too dumb to realize that if they want their lives to be better, they have to make some sacrifices and stand up against injustice and for each other. Yet they show their heedlessness when they spend money on extravagant weddings just to impress people. It is all a big vain fa"ade.
Karachi and Quetta are getting destroyed by gang violence. This violence is often instigatged by elected officials who are really just gangsters.
I am glad however, that some people like Hassan Nisar, Pervez Hoodhbhoy and Tarek Fatah (I do not like them generally speaking, I just like some of their ideas) are coming out and telling the truth about the reality of Pakistan.
Incognito13

Con

As neg today i will say why Pakistan is a successful country.

Pakistans education is successful:
Despite the many challenges facing Pakistan, there have been a number of success stories. For example, its Punjab province has experienced tremendous progress in education reform. During the past two years, education reforms in Punjab province resulted in more than 1.5 million more children enrolled in school, 81,000 new teachers hired on merit and a 90 percent increase in school attendance. With 40 out of 70 million young people ages 5 to 19 in Pakistan not in school, reforms in Pakistan"s most populous province provide important lessons for the rest of the country.On June 6, the Center for Universal Education (CUE) hosted a discussion on the progress on educating children and youth in Pakistan. The event began with a presentation by Sir Michael Barber, chief education strategist at Pearson, on his most recent report titled, The Good News from Pakistan. Barber explained the premise of his work supporting reforms in Punjab, where he serves as an advisor on a U.K. Department for International Development-funded project supporting local education reform priorities. The roadmap that Punjab has developed for education reform focuses on getting more children into schools, ensuring that the children in school are truly learning, holding teachers accountable for coming to work, and moving simple and effective policies through the Pakistani government. The most important part of the process, according to Barber, is the implementation of policy, which requires great attention to fieldwork on the ground. By creating clear and reachable targets for each of the 36 districts within the Punjab province, the Ministry of Education in Punjab measures the number of students coming to class and the average number of days teachers show up to work.

Contention 2: Pakistan is not a failed state:
More than 24,000 Pakistanis form the world"s largest "human national flag" in Lahore. "APP Photo
It"s been about a week since the Connecticut school massacre, and Americans are still grieving.

Yet we"re comforted by the thought that, with time, the bereaved community of Newtown will bounce back. Students will return to school, and victims" families will somehow get on with their lives. This is because America, as politicians and the US media have intoned repeatedly in recent days, is a strong and resilient society.

For me, such words bring to mind another strong and resilient society " one that endures constant afflictions, tragedies, and privation. I can think of few nations that suffer more misery than Pakistan.

Pakistan certainly isn"t the only country where, in a span of hours, an infant can be bitten by a rat in a hospital nursery, and 16 people can die from consuming toxic cough medicine. This happened several weeks ago.

Yet, place these individual incidents alongside the unending onslaught of natural disaster, insurgency, terrorism, corruption, poverty, natural resource shortage, and disease. Now you can understand why so many Pakistanis suffer from PTSD, and are driven to desperate measures.

In 2008, in one of the most harrowing pieces of journalism I"ve ever read, Newsline"s Shimaila Matri Dawood wrote of Pakistanis murdering their children, jumping in front of trains, and setting themselves on fire " all because they couldn"t provide for their families.

Still, the aim of my final post of 2012 is not to dwell on Pakistan"s suffering. It is to showcase the remarkable strength and resiliency with which the Pakistani society responds to it.

When the 2010 floods plunged 20 per cent of the nation underwater, the government was largely missing in action. Yet doctors, housewives, students, and many others (not to mention the military) immediately deployed to the affected areas to render assistance. Of course, many Pakistanis minister to the needy every day, and not just after humanitarian catastrophes. Witness the tireless work of Pakistan"s living legend, Abdul Sattar Edhi.

Some of Pakistan"s citizen-first responders come bearing not relief or medical supplies, but inspiring words and campaigns that galvanise the nation. Malala Yousafzai certainly comes to mind " as does Sana Saleem, the free speech advocate recently named one of Foreign Policy"s top 100 global thinkers of 2012 (Malala made the list as well). Their ilk will increasingly take center stage as older generations " led by the likes of the late Ardeshir Cowasjee " retire from public life.

Then there are those Pakistanis who use their rare gifts to benefit the country. The tragically short life of Arfa Karim, the teenaged IT genius who provided computer training to the poor, is a shining example.

Also admirable are those who labor under the most difficult of conditions, yet still pull off extraordinary acts. Take journalists and doctors, many of whom are severely underpaid and overworked, and work in dangerous environments. Admittedly, some of them succumb to the stress (recall the surgeon who left operating scissors in a patient"s stomach, and the journalists who fell for the infamous Shamsul Anwar hoax). Yet many more shrug off threats to break critical stories, or save countless lives. I"ll never forget the young doctor I met last summer, who told me he constantly fears getting attacked at his hospital by livid people denied care. When I asked why he keeps going back, his answer was immediate and simple: "Pakistan needs medical care."

And then there are the besieged religious minorities, who quietly persevere in a nation that refuses to protect them. It"s a wonder more haven"t fled.

Finally, there are the simple yet poignant acts of charity and benevolence " like the kids in Karachi who collect garbage every Sunday, or the Islamabad-based peace activists who travel to KP to speak to students about tolerance and nonviolence.

One of Pakistan"s enigmas is how it manages to "muddle along" despite its multitude of problems. The answer can be found in its people, who hold the country together. They are undoubtedly driven by patriotism, which runs deep despite the nation"s divisions. This is why I cringe whenever I hear Pakistan referred to as a "failed state." So long as the Pakistani society remains strong, I can"t imagine how Pakistan can fail.

At least not yet.

The question, in the years ahead, is whether Pakistan"s resilient society can beat back the cresting waves of militancy and sectarianism that threaten to tear Pakistan apart and, one day, even plunge it into civil war. Balkanisation, more so than an Islamist takeover, is a very real threat to the Pakistani state.

Up to now, the Pakistani society has stepped in to provide services and fill roles where the government is absent. Yet this isn"t a sustainable strategy. To avert disaster in the decades ahead, the Pakistani state will need to step up " and provide the leadership and good judgment long exemplified by its society.
Debate Round No. 1
muslimnomore

Pro

muslimnomore forfeited this round.
Incognito13

Con

To be fair i will wait till my opponent posts his arguments.
Debate Round No. 2
muslimnomore

Pro

I apologize for not responding in time for round 2. I was not overly busy, just not motivated enough to respond. To be honest I am hoping to lose this debate as it will give me some hope for the future of Pakistan. However, I also hope that you will bring up some stronger points in the next round because these points made me even more depressed.



Pakistans education is successful:
During the past two years, education reforms in Punjab province resulted in more than 1.5 million more children enrolled in school, 81,000 new teachers hired

For a country with a population of close to 200 million that is quickly rising, that is not saying much. Most (yes most) schools used in such statistics are madrassas and even if they aren't they might as well be, because the curriculum is filled with nothing but anti-hindu, anti-india, pro-army and pro-islam propaganda.
Even PhD papers written in Pakistan's universities are dedicated to proving the viability of "Qruanic Science" (see: http://www.meforum.org...). I will even go so far as to say that it is better to have no schools than schools that teach this type of hogwash.
There are no Pakistani Universities that even come close to competing with any of the world's top universities. Meanwhile India has several top universities.
The statistics for the literacy rate in Pakistan,, though dismal, are extremely skewed, because the census "statisticians" consider anyone who can spell their name "literate".


Contention 2: Pakistan is not a failed state:
More than 24,000 Pakistanis form the world"s largest "human national flag" in Lahore. "APP Photo
Ants can build colonies more impressive.

It"s been about a week since the Connecticut school massacre, and Americans are still grieving.

What?? Reading this and the drivel that followed was one reasn why I didn't respond in time. I was thinking to myself "What does this have to do with anything?"

Yet we"re comforted by the thought that, with time, the bereaved community of Newtown will bounce back. Students will return to school, and victims" families will somehow get on with their lives. This is because America, as politicians and the US media have intoned repeatedly in recent days, is a strong and resilient society.

So irrelevant. Utter nonsense.

I can think of few nations that suffer more misery than Pakistan.
Me neither! And this is why I believe Pakistan is a failed state.

Yet, place these individual incidents alongside the unending onslaught of natural disaster, insurgency, terrorism, corruption, poverty, natural resource shortage, and disease. Now you can understand why so many Pakistanis suffer from PTSD, and are driven to desperate measures.

Thanks for making my points for me.


In 2008, in one of the most harrowing pieces of journalism I"ve ever read, Newsline"s Shimaila Matri Dawood wrote of Pakistanis murdering their children, jumping in front of trains, and setting themselves on fire " all because they couldn"t provide for their families.
Symptoms of a failed state. Thanks for the depressing reminder that parents in Pakistan regularly abandon and/or kill their children because of the apocalyptic economy.

Still, the aim of my final post of 2012 is not to dwell on Pakistan"s suffering. It is to showcase the remarkable strength and resiliency with which the Pakistani society responds to it.

Resiliency? The country's going to hell! The people are killing each other, hoarding wealth, stealing, robbing, defrauding each other.

When the 2010 floods plunged 20 per cent of the nation underwater, the government was largely missing in action.

EXACTLY!!! Failed state!! I am going to go cry after this!

Malala Yousafzai certainly comes to mind " as does Sana Saleem, the free speech advocate recently named one of Foreign Policy"s top 100 global thinkers of 2012 (Malala made the list as well). Their ilk will increasingly take center stage as older generations " led by the likes of the late Ardeshir Cowasjee " retire from public life.

Agreed, Malala is definitely a ray oh hope. Unfortunately most of the country seems to be under the impression that she is a an American puppet with one sole purpose: to destroy Islam. LOL!


Then there are those Pakistanis who use their rare gifts to benefit the country. The tragically short life of Arfa Karim, the teenaged IT genius who provided computer training to the poor, is a shining example.
Shining only because the country is so far behind in this department, that an intiative like this seems like a big deal. It's like pointing out a 0.1% reduction in a huge brain tumor's size.

Take journalists and doctors, many of whom are severely underpaid and overworked, and work in dangerous environments. Admittedly, some of them succumb to the stress (recall the surgeon who left operating scissors in a patient"s stomach, and the journalists who fell for the infamous Shamsul Anwar hoax). Yet many more shrug off threats to break critical stories, or save countless lives. I"ll never forget the young doctor I met last summer, who told me he constantly fears getting attacked at his hospital by livid people denied care. When I asked why he keeps going back, his answer was immediate and simple: "Pakistan needs medical care."

So there's a few hardworking people amongst a sea of horrible people. And this is a point against my arguments?



One of Pakistan"s enigmas is how it manages to "muddle along" despite its multitude of problems. The answer can be found in its people, who hold the country together.

"Muddle along" is an understatement. It is whimpering and writhing in pain like a Gazelle eviscerated by a wild cat.
At least not yet.

The question, in the years ahead, is whether Pakistan"s resilient society can beat back the cresting waves of militancy and sectarianism that threaten to tear Pakistan apart and, one day, even plunge it into civil war.

Militancy and sectarianism are problems that are caused by a flawed and dangerous society, not a "resilient" one.

If Pakistan is ever going to get anywhere, the military spending has to be severely reduced, the corruption has to be stopped, religious propaganda has to end. The Nawaz Sharif government has to stop pretending that India is on the verge of destroying Pakistan. Leave India alone and they'll be happy to leave the piece of trash called Pakistan alone. None of this is happening.

Please read some of these excellent articles about the failure of Pakistan as a state.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com...
http://ffp.statesindex.org...;
Incognito13

Con

Incognito13 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ajawed3333 3 years ago
ajawed3333
makhdoom5, true all non muslims are fazool may allah give them jahanam
Posted by ajawed3333 3 years ago
ajawed3333
may allah give Christians jahanam
Posted by Usama.7 3 years ago
Usama.7
swear is not haram..its when u say by the name of Allah for important thing
confirming ...so in quraan ..Allah swt said don't swear by my name for every thing
like always..it must be for extremely serious thing..got it
makhdoom was right..you can ask Allah swt whatever you want in duniaa n akhirat
both..even if he wants to take revenge
so in quraan also ..momineen (believers) can see the other side ..when people of hell
will ask them ( we were with you)..they replied yes..but u were fasqeen
means with bad deeds
the people who make fun of believers in this life..at the day of judgment believers will make fun of them
so be careful specially you (muslimnomore)
man..even your name is weird
Posted by makhdoom5 3 years ago
makhdoom5
fazool.
u wana test it.
than i can show u ok.
well dont ever make me angry.
and u apostate i am not mad yet its normal.
if i become mad and angry.
u will see things u have never seen ok.
i am nothing.
i am not in charge but u dont know what is relation of ALLAH with his abd.
coz u havent seen him u dont believe him.
i do for him he do for me.
above is the mafoom of quranic verse ok.
and dont eat my brain in worthless talk.
Posted by makhdoom5 3 years ago
makhdoom5
well u dont know how things works,
so keep ur hell out of it.
ok.
Posted by fuzala 3 years ago
fuzala
Oh, I got something for this. "You do not own paradise nor were you made its gate keeper, so stop dooming others, pretending you are in charge." ~Mufti Ismail Menk
Posted by muslimnomore 3 years ago
muslimnomore
you're very angry. you'd throw a person into a fire because they insulted your prophet? that's very sad.
Posted by makhdoom5 3 years ago
makhdoom5
yes it is haram to swear.
but shiiit word is not swear.
its the name of waste.
but still a muslim even should not say that word.
and this is my mistake.
but u peoples do so big.
when u accuse ALLAH and our prophet saww.
right now i cant say any thing.
coz ALLAH has given u free will in this world.
but at judgement day i will see and i will throw all those who say about my religion i will throw them into hell with my own hands.
even u can curse them here in this world.
curse from me is bad so bad.
keep in mind i am also rajput.
our old old old old converted into islam very mysteriously.
kashmir was selected from the beginning.
Posted by muslimnomore 3 years ago
muslimnomore
it was rhetorical question.
Posted by fuzala 3 years ago
fuzala
Some say it is wrong, but who said people never do anything wrong?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by torterra 3 years ago
torterra
muslimnomoreIncognito13Tied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: I dislike Pakistan and think we waste our time with it