The Instigator
Ozzz169
Con (against)
The Contender
Jac925
Pro (for)

Pascal's Wager

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/31/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 804 times Debate No: 98572
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (23)
Votes (0)

 

Ozzz169

Con

I will argue that Pascal's wager is false, and that you should not take it. Pro will argue that it is valid and you should believe (or attempt to believe) in Christian beliefs because of Pascal's wager.


Pascal's Wager:

Believe in Jesus: If correct go to heaven, if incorrect no punishment
Disbelief in Jesus: If Correct Nothing, If incorrect go to hell

No matter how small the chance of heaven (infinate reward) then you have to believe as there is infinate benefit, and visa versa.

Con position:

When we evaluate Pascal as a dicotomy it clearly seems to be a good wager to accept indeed. But, clearly it is not a true dicotomy, as there are other options with some probaility of being the true result.

Premis 1:

God is fair and just.

Premis 2:

We were given free will and the ability to use logic and reasoning to observe and deduce knowledge about the world/universe.

Conclusion:

I argue that it is many orders of magnitude more likely that in order to earn the infinate reward we have to use logic to understand that a fair and just God would expect us to use logic and reasoning and not partake in religion roulette (one religion is right and you have to get lucky enough to pick the correct religion to get the ininate reward), rather he would expect us to deduce that religion roulette is the test, and rejecting it in all its forms is the only way to be given the infinate reward, and avoid the infinate punishment.

With all else being equal.


Jac925

Pro

I would like to accept the debate challenge and will argue for Pascal's wager. Firstly it must be under stood that Pascal's wager is not an argument for God. It simply says that if you believe in God what have you got to lose but if you don't believe in God then you could loose everything. It doesn't really apply to any particular religion but rather generic theism. It simply says that you should believe in God just to be sad. It's similar to divine insurance.
Debate Round No. 1
Ozzz169

Con

First off I would like to apologize for the spelling errors, this is my first post here and I was using rich text which I did not realize was not using the built in spell checker in firefox, I was in process of fixing them when you accepted. Second, I would like to thank you for accepting.

Clearly pascal was making a pragmatic argument. That was not in question. He was also clearly arguing for the Christian belief, which is why I stated belief in Jesus as his argument.

So if you assume God is real, then my argument is sound and I do not think you have rebutted it sufficiently.

I can elaborate a little. If God is real, you must REJECT all religions or you have a much greater chance of picking the wrong one and getting the infinite punishment, and missing the infinite prize. Playing what I call religion roulette is counter to logic, and any logical creature can easily understand this. If God is fair and just, it is much more likely that he would not pick a religion as the correct one, but might instead expect us to see how religions are not his creation and to reject them, in that case you earn the infinite reward.

The 3 other possible outcomes
1. all religions get the infinite reward, in which everyone wins, the generous God case.
2. God does not exist therefore you don't get punished or rewarded. (which for this argument can be ignored)
3. A religion other than the one you picked in pascal's case Christianity is correct, and you get whatever punishment for not believing in that religion is.

I argue that my case gives you the highest probability of being the correct, based on the 2 premises given.
Jac925

Pro

I would first like to thank my opponent for his response and will now respond to his argument. This will be slightly hard as I agree with quite a lot of the argument. You are correct in saying that if God exists then he would want us to use logic and reason. In your conclusion you say:
I argue that it is many orders of magnitude more likely that in order to earn the infinate reward we have to use logic to understand that a fair and just God would expect us to use logic and reasoning and not partake in religion roulette (one religion is right and you have to get lucky enough to pick the correct religion to get the ininate reward), rather he would expect us to deduce that religion roulette is the test, and rejecting it in all its forms is the only way to be given the infinate reward, and avoid the infinate punishment.

There is one thing I disagree with however. If God exists then he would want us to pick a religion as if we obstain from religion our chances of getting eternal punishment raise to one hundred since we aren't won't have any method of salvation. Also if we use our logic and reasoning then I believe we will arrive at Christianity,but that's a debate for another day.
Debate Round No. 2
Ozzz169

Con

Pro Is thinking all religions have a hell like punishment for nonbelievers, while I am not an expert on most religions I am sure this is not the case. I think it was not until Jesus and the bible came along that the idea of hell (the infinite punishment) came along, before then I think it was more karma based (you were punished according to your bad deeds), or were not punished but didn't get the reward associated with the religion. This is just general knowledge I acquired and it may not be 100% accurate, and if it is not would love Pro to demonstrate it. But, It is accurate enough to illustrate the point that there are diversity of outcomes for nonbelievers.

Pro might be interested in another debate I where I argue that even if the bible is 100% true it still must be rejected, this deals with the logic of the bible itself and of Jesus in particular.

As for poor Pascal I think his wager is done.

I would like to interject a positive note. Another conclusion that one can draw from the 2 premises I listed, is that God would not punish anyone to infinite punishment as this would not be fair and just, or rational and logical.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 3
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
You should attend this debate:
Atheism- A lost reality! A hopeless, helpless cause!
Posted by Ozzz169 1 year ago
Ozzz169
And I do it well, because I start of from an skeptical point of view, and then search out information from as many different points of view as possible, and then evaluate them and come up with a logically consistent belief on what actually happened, always willing to change my interpretation as more facts are presented.

You Sir have not and are not capable of doing this, because you are a zealot. If they found Jesus's tomb opened it and found his body, or they found and proved without a doubt a book that Jesus wrote himself, and never claims to be the messiah you would still believe what you believe, there is nothing in the world that could change your mind. No matter what facts are presented you are incapable of rational thought in regards to your "faith". Jesus could come back and say the bible is total bs and anyone that believes it is a heretic and you would still believe it.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
No you didn't MISS it you never looked for it, which is "Why" you lose. You see finding the truth is no one ELSES responsibility, your responsibility your consequence, see how that works:)

God holds everyone accountable for themselves as there will be no one to speak for you but you, in that day, no excuses will be accepted, your actions speak for volumes all by themselves. This is why when a soul is lost, it is a tragedy, because salvation was only a honest search away.
Posted by Ozzz169 1 year ago
Ozzz169
you gave a fact? sorry I missed it. if you are referring to the bible quotations, prove the bible is the word of God and 100% true then you can use it as a fact. I will warn you theologians have tried that for around 2000 years unsuccessfully though.

If I quote Moby Dick, cause there really was a Captain Ahab does that does that make 100% real line by line?

By your logic it is an acceptable argument to do so.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Ozzz169;
You misunderstand my friend; I have provided you with the facts, the responsibility of investigating those facts are entirely YOURS.

Remember, I'm already saved, and HAVE a personal relationship with YOUR creator, YOUR the one who doesn't! You want to just make excuses to explain away the truths I've given you? My friend you needn't bother. This is between you and God, I've fulfilled my obligations by telling you. Your choice your consequence. So unless you need further information about God and what He can do for you.

It's okay with me if you go on about your business. I already know the truth. Your the one that's lost. So be well, and happy trails bro!
Posted by Ozzz169 1 year ago
Ozzz169
you assume way to much about me, i don't take science as gospel either, I argue with the science zealots as well. particle physics is off its rails, and I think they are making the bs up as they go at this point. I don't really care about evolution, its most likely real at least from what I know of DNA. But its not interesting to me on average. It is interesting how you can be skeptical of science with the sole purpose of trying to make rational your irrational believes... you freaks crack me up... this does not make sense in science.... therefore God is real and the bible is true.... are you one of the earth is 6000 year old people too? flat earth? the problem when you allow yourself to be convinced of one set of bs, you try to stuff the rest of the world into a consistent view of your irrationality and it messes your head and sense of reality all up.

When people are as far gone as you there is no hope. You would gladly accept the Koolaid from Mr. Jones. Maybe already have.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Look who's irrationally, you let scientists convince you that live evolved from nothing ..... without even asking for proof!
Don't believe me? Put the animal the evolutionary experiments actually created?
None, zipola, nada. The created no animal or creature remotely equivalent to the size of a gnat. No living air breathing anything, but the convinced YOU that their hallucination was real. I have my proof, put yours on this comment section and stop making excuses.

Name the animal created that proved evolution was real from their experiments. You cannot because they never created one they just knew you wouldn't check, and be regaled by their big words, like biogenesis, natural selection, anagenesis, morphological, multicellular.

Go ahead, stop making excuses and name the criter that science created to prove evolution:
Or stay quiet!
Posted by Ozzz169 1 year ago
Ozzz169
You follow an inconstant irrational book written by man. The bible proves the bible... right? the bible is old so it must be valid? It is entertaining to watch googley eyed zealots try to rationalize the irrational.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
The way of eternal life through salvation in the gospels, is perhaps the most misunderstood of the present era. Largely because people in their own interpretations (a thing forbidden IN the Bible)
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation.
Theologians, scholars and laypersons continue to violate this directive, is it a wonder that so many versions of the gospels exist. It is true that in the end times shall come deceiving spirits, who by cunning speech, lure man into a belief system that only relies solely on mans intellect and logic. This of course is in error, as God is so far removed from our way of thinking, as stated in scripture.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits, and doctrines of demons;

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The way of salvation is these:
Romans 10: 9-10 if you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Nothing more and nothing less. In this is the "Gift" of eternal life freely given to you, all requirements for salvation are done and completed in their entirety by Christ blood sacrifice ALONE. You can add nothing to or take away from this gift, it is DONE. ETERNAL life IS yours.
Posted by Ozzz169 1 year ago
Ozzz169
Trust me drinking the koolaid is much easier than living a life in the real world, I am fully aware of it. But I value my honesty and integrity to much to enslave it to some obviously false ideology, and if God can't respect that then I don't want to hang with the dude, cause he is not benevolent. You have been deceived by the ultimate deceiver, and you worship his word, thanks but no thanks I will remain free (in case your not capable to get the implications I am making its your fellow man that is the ultimate deceiver).
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