The Instigator
ProHobo
Pro (for)
Winning
32 Points
The Contender
FREEDO
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Passing a kidney stone is more painful than giving birth.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/20/2010 Category: Science
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 18,887 times Debate No: 12376
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (6)

 

ProHobo

Pro

For those few that have passed a kidney stone, we frequently hear statements that compare the pain to giving birth, such as "I have heard that is more painful than giving birth." Surprisingly, I have heard these statements from nurses and doctors, not just friends and family.

I contend that the pain is as great if not more severe for passing a kidney stone vs. giving birth.

Note: This is strictly a fun debate. I currently have and trying to pass my 3rd Kidney Stone (unfortunately this one is over 10mm and I will not be able to pass it – meaning they are going to have to break it up and take it out.)

When I heard the giving birth comparison – no less than 3 times while in the emergency room – I thought it might be a fun debate on debate.org – if not to just keep my mind off the pain.

Note: the narcotics are NOT working – they just numb the senses – the pain is still there - -- - - Ahhh ah ahs - ah hhh hahhhhhdhsfffffffj ffffffffuuuuuuudge....
FREEDO

Con

Seeing as Pro has the burden of proof in this debate and seeing as this is not a debate involving theory of any kind, Pro will have to put forward the physical evidence to prove his assertion. Until then, I have nothing to refute.
Debate Round No. 1
ProHobo

Pro

I need to preface this by stating that I am under the influence at the time of this writing and will most likely not be available for a rebuttal tomorrow. I apologize if this results in any confusion and I hope that my context and syntax remains coherent, rather than the narcotics speaking. I thank FREEDO "Con" for taking the other side of this debate. I will no doubt use words or terms, that one could begin a broadside of semantic and definitional usage arguments, but I hope that we can use these words within the core framework of the argument, as the meaning should be implied with-in the context and an elaborate barrage should not be necessary. Lastly, I hope it is all in good fun as this is being used as an exercised to keep me focused while the narcotics keep the pain at bay.

==================================

Point 1: Common referral.
Why would anyone make a common referral between two different medical problems? It would stand to reason that if frequent comments are made (not only by layman, but doctors and nurses alike) in reference to the pain of passing a kidney stone would be as bad worst than labor –there would be some merit to the comment. For we know there are X number of those that have passed kidney stones, we know there are Y number of who have given birth, and there is Z number of those that have passed kidney stones and given birth. One would think that with the frequency of the comment, that if it was not true there would be a rather large contingent that would be the "nay sayers".

Personal Experience as to the frequency from professionals (while not verified – I would hope my opponent will consider these as true – for the sake of the debate. Granted that in none of the statements indicate that one is more or less painful, it does demonstrate that it is comparable.)

a.In San Francisco, when I had my first stone – the urologist said – prior to passing the stone "Now you'll know how painful it is for women to give birth!" That would imply the pain is equivalent.

b.When I went in to have the stone "broken up" the nurse said – "I would rather give birth again, than passing another kidney stone!" The nurse has experienced both; however her comment did not indicate which was more painful and could additionally imply that the corresponding results of having a child was worth the pain. Never-the-less the comparison was made and both implied similar levels of pain.

c.Emergency Room (last Friday) for recent stone. I had three separate references from three separate individuals (attending doctor, resident, and admitting nurse). All of them making the comparison between passing a stone and labor. Granted none of them said which was more painful, but they did make comparable references.

Internet
After reviewing several search engines it quickly becomes apparent that I am not the only person that has had the experience in the referencing of pain between passing a kidney stone and labor (Google results 401,000 for "kidney stone vs. labor"). Additionally, there are hundreds of comments, topics, questions, and form responses about the comparison of pain between the two.

Conclusion to Point one: Many have heard the painful comparison. While a common comparison does not constitute verification as to which has higher pain level, the mere fact that it has not been a refuted comparison, would indicated that there is a reasonable high level of probability that the pain is similar. The common reference (and frequency in which I have experienced) would reasonably conclude that they are of similar pain. For it would not be logical for the comparison to be made in the first place, if it were not.

=======================================

Point 2: The Comparison.
When you suffer from a kidney stone they don't say, "It's as painful as a gunshot wound!" Instead it is most commonly referenced to a labor pain. Why would they make that reference?

I was at my urologist this morning and asked him that very question. He said the pain is located in the same general area in which women fell birthing pains. Kidney stones will however only give pain to the left or right side, but it is one of the few pains that will also be felt in the lower back, side and front – similar to birthing pain. Additionally, kidney stone pain and birthing pain comes and goes (for the most part) – via contractions in the case of birth, via stone movement in the case of kidney stones – however stones can be continuous pain. They also share in some of the same pain receptor nerves (not all). He concluded that women have cited that kidney pain was similar to giving birth. Yet when I asked about which he thought was worse, he said he didn't know because he was a man – and wouldn't wager to guess.

Conclusion to Point 2: It seems that doctors and women have both verified the comparison, the urologist took a medical approach as to why, while the nurse (in Point 1) made the comparable statement after experiencing both – which would lead me to conclude the pain was of similar nature. For why else would she make the comparison? So it would stand to reason that the type of pain and the location has something to do with the comparison.

==============================================

Point 3: Statistical
While point one and point two don't conclusively indicate which is MORE painful, they do show that it is common and similarities between the two pains. The only way to conclude this debate is to look at statistical polling results.
The following poll resulted in: 57.8% thought Kidney Pain was worse and only 18.4% said Labor was worse.
http://community.babycenter.com...

Conclusion to Point 3:
The only people to qualify whether one is more painful than the other are for those that experienced both. The poll not only indicates that passing kidney stones are as painful (to met my burden as Pro), rather they are even MORE painful - by a rather wide margin.

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Conclusion:
Points 1 & 2 would indicated it is commonly referred to as a similar pain, both from simple medical level (being of the same location, same type of pain, and some similar pain receptors). The comparison is not just made by laypeople, but frequently used by doctors, nurses, and others in the medical field. While it may be commonly referred to, I would agree it doesn't mean that one is of more pain – however – it would stand to reason that those in the medical field have experienced enough patients who have had both problems that from their observable experience they are comparable and similar in pain levels.

So which is worse, that leads to Point 3. The only true way to measure which is worse is to gather statistical information from those that have experienced both. The poll indicates that these women believed that Kidney Stones were more painful than labor by a rather large margin.

I believe that I have demonstrated through the common use of the comparison, the actual comparison, and through the polling data that Kidney Stones are as or more painful than labor.

Vote Pro - As the polling results (of women who have experienced both) should be more than enough to meet the burden of "I contend that the pain is as great if not more severe for passing a kidney stone vs. giving birth."

Note: I would happily lose this debate if it proved the "Con" was right and I could be rid of this pain right now.
FREEDO

Con

"Personal Experience as to the frequency from professionals (while not verified – I would hope my opponent will consider these as true – for the sake of the debate. Granted that in none of the statements indicate that one is more or less painful, it does demonstrate that it is comparable.)"

Actually I won't, I'm sorry. It isn't proper debate conduct to simply take someone's word for something. I will need references to reliable sources.

"Conclusion to Point one: Many have heard the painful comparison. While a common comparison does not constitute verification as to which has higher pain level, the mere fact that it has not been a refuted comparison, would indicated that there is a reasonable high level of probability that the pain is similar. The common reference (and frequency in which I have experienced) would reasonably conclude that they are of similar pain. For it would not be logical for the comparison to be made in the first place, if it were not."

This is not substantial enough evidence to make a justifiable case for kidney stones being more painful than giving birth. Whether something is debated or discussed frequently enough says nothing for it's possibility of legitimacy. There are many who make the case that their religion is true; this makes it no more likely of being true. It all comes down to the actual case they make.

"While point one and point two don't conclusively indicate which is MORE painful, they do show that it is common and similarities between the two pains. The only way to conclude this debate is to look at statistical polling results.
The following poll resulted in: 57.8% thought Kidney Pain was worse and only 18.4% said Labor was worse."

I submit that this is a good argument. I would like my opponent to expand on the legitimacy and context of his source. Until then, I will not refute it.

_____

I would give a more lengthy reply but unfortunately I postponed my post too long and only have a a few more minutes to submit it. I apologize.
Debate Round No. 2
ProHobo

Pro

Doctors and Nurses report that their WOMEN patients that have experienced both state that Kidney Stone pain is worse:

The Stone Center (This website has been developed to give you basic knowledge of the urinary tract, kidney stones development, treatment, and prevention – advisor board members, Cully Carson III, M.D., Edward Anderson, M.D., Fred Govier. M.D. )

These doctors contend that their patients OFTEN describe kidney stone pain worse than labor.

In their Stone Presentation state: http://www.urostonecenter.com... "Kidney stones that obstruct are the ones that cause pain, which is the most common presenting symptom. This pain may be in the flank with radiation into the lower abdomen and inguinal areas as well as to the testicle in males and the labia in females. Stone pain or renal colic can vary from a mild ache to the worst pain imaginable. Women often describe it as worse than labor pain, and patients often say there is no position which gives relief of pain."

------------------------------

This doctor who specialize in female pelvic health disorders states his female patients ALWAYS DECLARE that the pain of a kidney stone is worse than labor.

Dr. Matthew Karlovsky MD (Specializes in female pelvic health disorders.) states; "On its own, a kidney stone attack is one of the most painful events described by patients. My female patients always declare that the pain from a kidney stone is worse than childbirth." - This is an excerpt from his article published in online journal "The Female Patient" http://www.empowher.com...

-------------------------------

This nurse (who specializes with labor) stated the pain rivaled what she experienced in labor.

Jeanne Faulkner, R.N (Nurse who specializes in Labor and manages her own online website about pregnancy) states; "I've heard people say the only thing as painful as labor is a kidney stone. It was usually men I heard say that through and before yesterday, I figured they didn't know what they were talking about. Labor pain being exclusively a woman's domain, I thought these guys just needed something to show they could be tough too. Yeah, right, dude. Whatever.

Gentlemen, I apologize. I spent the day yesterday with one of my college-age daughters while she experienced pain so bad, it rivaled what I've experienced in labor along with unbearable nausea and countless bouts of vomiting. Poor baby had a kidney stone. When she eventually passed the darn thing (and we saw it when the nurse filtered her urine), the nurse and I shouted, "it's out, it's out!" as if she'd just delivered a big baby instead of a tiny stone. Of course, we teased it had to be a boy since it gave her so much trouble. Again, guys, my apologies."

http://www.fitpregnancy.com...

=========================================

A Poll conducted on BabyCenter community (BabyCenter is the voice of the 21st Century Mom � and modern motherhood. As the Web's #1 global interactive parenting network, it has nurtured more than 100 million parents since its launch in 1997. In the U.S., BabyCenter reaches over 78 percent of new and expectant moms online; 7 out of 10 babies born in 2009 were BabyCenter babies.) (http://www.babycenter.com...)

BabyCenter Community Poll: Labor vs. Kidney Stone Pain

57.8% kidney stone pain was worse
18.4% labor pain was worse
15.7% it's complicated (depends)
7.8% neither/other

This poll shows by a rather wide margin (greater than 3:1) that women believe kidney stone pain is worse than labor.

======================================

Quotes from women who have experienced both (these women are registered members of BabyCenter Community -you are able to review their profiles as a member - they have experienced both labor and kidney stones):

KLovi ; "I had a kidney stone when Mitch was only a few weeks old...I was in labor for over 20 hours, but never got to transition, cause I had a c-section. The kidney stone hurt so much worse for me, because it was a constant pain."
Chris914: "I had 3 days of labor followed by an emergency C Section, and I still pick kidney stones as being worse"
Shopgirl888: "I had a kidney stone about 2 years ago and OMG it hurt sooo bad! I definitley think that it was worse than labor."

Mrs.Smith.plus.five "Kidney stones. I have had 3 c/s and would rather have another c/s vs having kidney stones again. That was the worst pain of my life."

Amandapham: "Ive done both and I guess my thinking is with labor you get small breaks in between kidney stones are constant."

Wtrbabie6: "I've had kidney stones twice and drug free labor once and I would pick the kidney stones."

Emkirkle: "I've delieverd 2 kids and had kidney stones 3 times...with neither baby did my epidural work correctly and I still say that kidney stones is like 3 times worse, easily!"

Bobbiesox_83: "i got kidney stones when i was pregnant with kobey and it was horrible!! i got them in early june, and still have them. i was in so much pain the last few months of my pregnancy that i was in and out of the hospital constantly and on heavy pain killers. i honestly think that the pain from the stones is worse than labor pain."

MomtoBCBA: "I've had both multiple times and I would have to say it depends on the size of the stone. I've had some kidney stones that could be passed at home that hurt like hell but were manageable (two while pregnant with DS#3). Those rival labor to me. BUT... I've had two that blocked the tube from the kidney to the bladder (one when I was 6 mths. pregnant with DS#2 - hospitalized). The last of these was when LO was 2 months old. Nothing I've ever experienced could compare to this 7mm stone. I was ready to die. It was consistant, writhing pain. I ended up having surgery. Four labors were nothing compared to this. YUCK! I wouldn't wish it on anyone."

Mymarchgrlz: "I had kidney stones twice. Both times while 32 week pregnant. Once was middle daughter and the other was with Griffin. What amazing luck to have it twice in two seperaten pregnancies at the same amount of weeks! The first time the pain was extremely unbearable and constant. The second time was about equal with labor. I think it may depend on the size of the stones and how easily they pass."

While there are more, it is clear that vast majority of these women that have experienced both have stated that the kidney stone is worse than labor.

http://community.babycenter.com...

========================

Pro needed to show that "…the pain is as great if not more severe for passing a kidney stone vs. giving birth." Not that kidney pain was worse in all circumstances, but only "as great". Pro has met his burden and has shown that those in the medical field as well as women who have experienced both, state that kidney stones are as bad if not worse than labor.

Vote Pro: As I have shown that doctors and nurses (both who specialize in kidney stones, women's pelvic heath, and a labor nurse) have both stated that kidney stone pain has been compared to being as bad (if not worse) than labor.

Vote Pro: A poll conducted on BabyCenter Community - asking women who have experienced both show that a majority (over 3:1) say Kidney Stone is worse pain.

Vote Pro: Quotes from several women who have experienced both, indicate kidney stone pain is worse than labor.
FREEDO

Con

My opponent has won this debate by providing substantial and reliable evidence.

But lastly let us consult Stephen Lynch for his word on the matter of pregnancy:
See videos.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by J.Kenyon 4 years ago
J.Kenyon
; )
Posted by ProHobo 4 years ago
ProHobo
Freedo,

Thank you for the debate, initially I had no idea which was more painful - I was (and currently) going through difficulty of passing the kidney stone and had heard my doctor and several nurses state it was of equal if not more painful than labor, yet I really had no idea.

Note: I had surgery to place a stint between my bladder and kidney to help pass the stone. They also used soundwaves to break up the 10mm stone - into smaller stones. The stint will remain for at least a week or until the stone passes. I can tell you the pain is constant, but during urination it rockets to unbelievable levels. I sympathise with women - at least I know the level of pain they suffer to give birth....
Posted by ProHobo 4 years ago
ProHobo
Cerebral_Narcissist,

Talk about a buzz kill.

No doubt your statement would hold true if I didn't bother to argue and just passed on an excuse as why I could not. However, that was not the case - I had an idea and I offered my argument.

I will no doubt admit that my verbosity (or diarrhea of the mouth) is directly affected by the narcotics. My concern is that between the pain/narcotics/lack of sleep would make it read - well - not so well or lack coherent structure. I have to say it sounded ok to me - but what do I know.

Lastly, it would seem that your post is more about being an attention whore, as a characteristic of a "troller" - such as yourself.

Furth more with a name that would include Narcissist indicates that not only are you an attention whore, but also in love with yourself and your trolling and posting could be considered virtual masturbation.
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 4 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
Anyone else think that ProHobo's round 2 should read,
"I need to preface this by stating that I am an attention whore and I have no idea how to argue this and won't even try."
Posted by I-am-a-panda 4 years ago
I-am-a-panda
also, "Doctor we have a problem." "Indeed, are you reading the x-ray report. The diameter is OVER 9000!"
Posted by I-am-a-panda 4 years ago
I-am-a-panda
Over...10...mm.......*BLLLLEEEEUUUUGHHH*
Posted by Xer 4 years ago
Xer
"I currently have and trying to pass my 3rd Kidney Stone (unfortunately this one is over 10mm and I will not be able to pass it – meaning they are going to have to break it up and take it out.)"

Ewwwwww.
Posted by badger 4 years ago
badger
what about the psychological pain for a man who didn't want a child with a beast of a woman?
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 3 years ago
Man-is-good
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Reasons for voting decision: Con acknowledged the superiority of his opponent's arguments....
Vote Placed by hagbard 4 years ago
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