The Instigator
08tsuchiyar
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
MoonDragon613
Pro (for)
Winning
27 Points

Patriotism (Nationalism) is a great thing

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/12/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 6,224 times Debate No: 3204
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (11)

 

08tsuchiyar

Con

The point of this debate is to explore whether Patriotism is truly useful in the world and discuss the positives and negatives of it.

I would like to define patriotism as a pride of your country and absolute devotion to it (you can still criticize it).

Here are my points....
Patriotism creates a us vs. them attitude
leading to.....
-war
-xenophobia
-rights being taken away
Patriotism is a snobby thing.
-where blind faith is the only driving factor

I would just like to hear why patriotism is so great because it is obvious to any observer that it causes problems.
MoonDragon613

Pro

Opening Arguments:

The resolution asks if Patriotism (Nationalism) is a great thing. And I contend that it is a great thing. It is great because Patriotism allows for greater collective action.

With a higher level of Patriotism, people become more trusting of their fellow countrymen. As a result, the higher level of trust allows for greater cooperative ventures, more pooled resources, and a sense of family, or belonging, between people of the same nation, making the world a happier place.

My opponent contends however that Patriotism leads to wars, rights being taken away, and "snobbishness" and goes even further to say "blind faith is the only driving factor". But his error is in his failure to study what the world was like before patriotism, and what the world Would be like without patriotism.

Those familiar with the game Prisoner's Dilemma, understand that when two individuals meet, Trust is illogical. They should always back stab each other. War, xenophobia, these are all NATURAL. It is Natural to distrust anyone other than yourself, or anyone other than your family. It is Natural to enter into war. But what Nationalism did was united large groups of people, with somewhat similar interests, and allowed them to cooperate for the collective good, DESPITE their inherent instinct to not trust other people.

Why do we have public education? Because people love the country enough to sacrifice for the country's greater good. The same goes for all public services. Where there is no Patriotism, there will be no public service.

I intend to make a dichotomy between a world without Patriotism and a world with Patriotism. And as the readers shall see, the world with Patriotism will have all the drawbacks already mentioned by my opponent, with none of the benefits of Patriotism.

-Hear me Roar!
Debate Round No. 1
08tsuchiyar

Con

I must admit the reason I started this debate was to understand why people love patriotism so much and think it's such a great thing. I now understand, but I must say the idea with schools may just be that people are giving not to the country but to the children....it may be a sense of responsibility rather then love of country.

What you say about the prisoners dilemna is interesting and I'd still love to hear your dichotomy....

Sorry for using this site to gain information and better insight rather then to debate on it.
MoonDragon613

Pro

Sure, here's a breakdown of a) what prisoner's dilemma is, and b) how it applies.

Imagine two prisoners being kept in separate cells, being interrogated by the police. At the moment, the police have what they need to put these two away on lesser charges, but they want evidence to put them away for the more serious charge. So the officers offer the prisoners this deal:
If you talk, and your partner doesn't, you go off for free, and he'll get 3 years. And same if he talks but you don't. If you both talk, you'll both get 2 years. And if you both don't talk, you both get 1 year.

Now logically, these prisoners will both talk. Because that yields the better outcome. Paradoxically they would have been better off if they both stayed silent.

Now Patriotism changes things a little. With all things being equal, Bob and John WOULD betray each other and both talk. But if they were both members of the same fraternity ... or members of the same Nation, the bond of trust makes it possible for both people to cooperate. What patriotism does is it changes the "payoff" of selling out your partner to "going off free" AND "guilt at betraying your countrymen". The greater the level of patriotism, the more trusting countrymen are of each other and engage in cooperative ventures they would not go on with strangers.

Collective action is a little different, though in many ways a derivative of Prisoner's Dilemma. Here, we have a large number of players. If all players "contribute", the society functions well. If one player cops out, the society will still function well. However, if too many players cop out, then the society falls apart.

An example of a Collective Action scenario in the real world is taxation. We might have the IRS, but with hundreds of millions of Americans, they depend heavily on Americans being at least somewhat truthful with their income tax filing. Now Americans know that taxes are important, to pay to the government. They also know that if they cheat a little they won't get caught. But if too many Americans cheat, then America'll be in trouble. With high levels of patriotism, people won't cheat. The society becomes more efficient and we would need the IRS less. Unlike before the era of patriotism where the government had to spend army on a military JUST to ensure the steady flow of taxation, in states with high levels of patriotism, such is unnecessary and money could therefore be spent more on social services.
Debate Round No. 2
08tsuchiyar

Con

Sweet. That's cool, I understand now.

Of course the prisoner's dilemma is a great concept to use. I have seen it before in Nash's equilibrium (Game Theory) which is a very interesting topic which does show how idealistic capitalism works....

I must say that you make an assumption that taxes rely on patriotism. Can it not just be people feel obligated and there is a sense of fear of the law?
MoonDragon613

Pro

Well see, with taxes, there has to be a certain amount of patriotism or otherwise it might be more expensive to Collect taxes then that tax income itself.

It's good you brought up the concept of obligation, because think about it, why Would you feel obligated to pay your taxes? If your brother came to you asking for money, you'd help out because of Family Loyalty. The more loyal to your family, the more you'd be willing to help. The same goes for your nation. The more Nation Loyalty you have, the more you would be willing to contribute to your nation. Except we call Nation Loyalty Patriotism. Now imagine if everyone was loyal, absolutely loyal, to their nation. Would we need the IRS to track everyone's tax payments? Of course not. It would be more efficient to just trust people to pay the right tax amounts. But that can only happen where there's a high level of patriotism.
Debate Round No. 3
08tsuchiyar

Con

08tsuchiyar forfeited this round.
MoonDragon613

Pro

MoonDragon613 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Danielle 8 years ago
Danielle
Great opening arguments so far!
Posted by cheekyhobo 8 years ago
cheekyhobo
I would do this, but lack of time and the fact that it is 4 rounds has detoured be.
Posted by Gear 8 years ago
Gear
My issue here is you bringing nationalism into this. In that regard, this becomes a debate weighted and quite unfairly so in your favor.
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by livi 8 years ago
livi
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