The Instigator
chevy10294
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Sweatingjojo
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points

Paying Higher Taxes is Patriotic

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Sweatingjojo
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/18/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,873 times Debate No: 5458
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (20)
Votes (1)

 

chevy10294

Con

This is a debate over weather Sen. Biden was wrong or not if paying higher taxes is patriotic.(http://news.yahoo.com...) I believe that he was wrong when he says this statement and that if we were to paying lower taxes it would be more patriotic. Why is it unpatriotic?

In the 1700's, the founding fathers of the United States came together to try and breakaway from Great Britain. One reason they did this was due to the fact that they felt their taxes were too high and wanted less government control. Then, when GB instituted the Tea Tax, men came together to empty the tea, so they wouldn't have to pay those taxes. Our government was built on low taxes and limited government control, so that if the founding fathers were around now, they would think that higher taxes is unpatriotic.

I am going to allow my oppnent try and prove why high taxes is patriot before I submit my full argument.
Sweatingjojo

Pro

Good Afternoon Chevy10294,
I come here today to argue that paying higher taxes is patriotic.

Well its really pretty simple, taxes are funds that are collected by the government, and represent part of the social contract that all people agree to when they choose to live in the United States. The social contract is that one would be willing to have some of their rights abridged to a degree, for the common protection and benefit of society.

Anyway, taxes are used to support the government.

The greater amount of tax collected, the more the government is supported.

Supporting the government is patriotic, because by supporting it, you are helping it remain in existence and prosper.

Therefore, paying higher taxes is patriotic.

To refute,

My opponent missed a major element of why the revolutionaries desired for a new government to be created. Its because they didn't have any representation in Parliament. If proper representation were granted to the English Colonies, history would be very different. So basically, it wasn't the taxes that bothered them so much, but rather the fact that they had no say over the levying of taxes. Regardless of what the founding fathers would think of the potentially different tax rates, they would certainly not find it unpatriotic, because they would find that their developed system of voting for elected officials would still be in place.

Basically, all Americans have a say on how they wished to be taxed, which they can express officially through voting, or through placing pressure on public officials and gathering support for ones position on taxation. If a person really doesn't like the way they are taxed, they are permitted to leave the country.

Thats really about it. Yeah.
Debate Round No. 1
chevy10294

Con

Hello and thanks for accepting my debate and sorry for the delay.

"Well its really pretty simple, taxes are funds that are collected by the government, and represent part of the social contract that all people agree to when they choose to live in the United States. The social contract is that one would be willing to have some of their rights abridged to a degree, for the common protection and benefit of society."

Agreed, but some of the stuff the government supports doesn't "benefit society".

"Anyway, taxes are used to support the government.
The greater amount of tax collected, the more the government is supported.
Supporting the government is patriotic, because by supporting it, you are helping it remain in existence and prosper.
Therefore, paying higher taxes is patriotic."

True, but our government can suppot us with less money. We can deal without useless programs that help minimal amounts of people and don't work. Also, where does most of that money go? If it was for the military I would be happy or for other useful programs. I will use social secruity for example. Lets say I give $1 to the government and it goes to social security, where my nieghbor gets that dollar, because he's too lazy to work. How am I being patriotic? Or it goes to some senator's huge paycheck? How is that for the good of the country?

"My opponent missed a major element of why the revolutionaries desired for a new government to be created. Its because they didn't have any representation in Parliament. If proper representation were granted to the English Colonies, history would be very different. So basically, it wasn't the taxes that bothered them so much, but rather the fact that they had no say over the levying of taxes. Regardless of what the founding fathers would think of the potentially different tax rates, they would certainly not find it unpatriotic, because they would find that their developed system of voting for elected officials would still be in place."

Yes, but the basis of the orginal government was to give everyone freedom. It wasn't the governments responsibilty to pay for other people's lazyness or health care. It was all about getting people to work hard so they didn't need the government, so then taxes would be very minimal.

Patriotic is a meaning from patriotism, which means

Main Entry:
pa�tri�ot�ism
: love for or devotion to one's country

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

So what I'm saying is that how is supporting your neighbor or paying someone else's heating bill or health care showing love or devotion to the country? I could do all that without the government, its just acting as a middle man.
Sweatingjojo

Pro

Going right into rebuttals...

"Agreed, but some of the stuff the government supports doesn't "benefit society"."

Give us an example or two, and we can talk about [argue] their beneficial effect upon society/ negation of the overall benefits of government spending.

"We can deal without useless programs that help minimal amounts of people and don't work."
Give examples.

"Also, where does most of that money go? If it was for the military I would be happy or for other useful programs. "

Well then you should be happy, because 68% of all discretionary spending goes toward the military/national security. If you include the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, we're talking another vast increase in the amount of money spent.

" Lets say I give $1 to the government and it goes to social security, where my nieghbor gets that dollar, because he's too lazy to work. "

First off, the reason why social security has worked for so long is because millions of people each are able to put in a little, which gives a decent bit to people once they retire. Next, in order to get social security, you have to work. So yeah. And you also have to be at least 67. Clearly your neighbor isn't lazy, but rather, he/she is retired!

"How am I being patriotic? Or it goes to some senator's huge paycheck? How is that for the good of the country?"
Well I would think its patriotic to support those that helped make the country what it is today.
I think this next question is a hypothetical as to if it is just to pay legislators. Which I think it is, because these people work to represent the views and opinions of their state, and in comparison to those of success in the Private sector, a Senator's paycheck of $170,000 is chump change.
Paying Senators is good for the country because it gives them an incentive to dedicate all of their time towards being a Senator.

"Yes, but the basis of the orginal government was to give everyone freedom."
A freedom based government would be a living contradiction . The concept of governing is to exert some degree of control upon the populace, for the greater good and protection of the rights of those governed. One of those controls is the control of the amount of wealth one has, also known as taxation.

"It wasn't the governments responsibilty to pay for other people's lazyness or health care."

Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution says rather clearly that "The Congress shall have power
To... provide for the... general welfare of the United States."

" It was all about getting people to work hard so they didn't need the government, so then taxes would be very minimal."
If you're insinuating that taxation is simply a way for the government to help the lazy, please do so with more detail and logic in your next post.

"So what I'm saying is that how is supporting your neighbor or paying someone else's heating bill or health care showing love or devotion to the country?"

Well not supporting your neighbor would make the country a worse place, because he/she would have a more difficult time living. Supporting your neighbor reaps long term economic benefits for the US, as it helps create a stronger workforce/larger GDP.

Same idea as before, we're all part of this country, so we all deserve to be helped out when we fall upon hard times.

" I could do all that without the government, its just acting as a middle man."

Sure you could, but would you? Judging from your previous statements, you wouldn't, and neither would the vast majority of this country.

Paying higher taxes is patriotic because it supports this country.
Debate Round No. 2
chevy10294

Con

Sorry, but I am very busy right now with school work, studying and what not, so I don't have time for an argument.

Hopefuly I'll have time for the nest round. Sorry once again.
Sweatingjojo

Pro

Alllrighty then...
Take your time I suppose..
Debate Round No. 3
chevy10294

Con

chevy10294 forfeited this round.
Sweatingjojo

Pro

Ah darn.

Sorry that you couldn't reply.

Paying Higher taxes is patriotic though, as I've shown.
Debate Round No. 4
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RoyLatham 8 years ago
RoyLatham
Currently, the top 1% of income-earners pay 60% of taxes. The bottom 50% of earners pay 2% of taxes, with most paying none. So at what levels do liberals think the burden would be shifted fairly? In order to give people paying nothing a "tax break" Obama proposes to send checks to people. This is not a tax break, it is welfare.

While I would much prefer to see spending cuts -- eliminate the Departments of Education and Agriculture for starters -- I'm not sure that increasing taxes a little, perhaps on people making more than a few million, would reduce revenues. We know that if taxes are too high then revenues are low, and if taxes are zero then revenue is zero. Therefore somewhere in between there is a peak. Possibly a little more could be squeezed out the very rich. I'm not sure. Squeeze too hard and they, or at least their money, will flee. Liberal George Soros keeps his money stashed in the Bahamas.
Posted by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
Also, I also think it is noble to give up about a quarter of your working life the government. What percentage to you say we should hand over to our silent partner?
Posted by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
But isn't the burden already shifted disproportionately to high net-worth individuals? And , as you mentioned, aren't those the people with the expensive CPAs who know how to help their clients avoid unfavorable taxation?

Would you indulge me if I rephrased the question: Why do liberals want to raise taxes on high net-worth people if they know it will reduce revenues?
Posted by brian_eggleston 8 years ago
brian_eggleston
Liberals don't want higher taxes as such, they just want the burden of taxation to be shifted more towards high net-worth individuals and away from ordinary working and middle class families.

However, in practice, enterprising people with a bit more money than your average Bob the Builder, will find (perfectly legal, if somewhat convoluted) ways to avoid paying taxes.

This is why I believe tax loopholes should be closed down. Even though that might make life a bit more difficult for me personally, provided I was confident everybody else was paying taxes, I would adopt a sense of noblesse oblige and be happy to pay my taxes in the knowledge that they would be spent helping others less fortunate than myself.
Posted by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
So why do liberals want to increase taxes if they know it will reduce revenues?
Posted by brian_eggleston 8 years ago
brian_eggleston
Okay, here's my two-pennothworth.

In order to avoid paying income or capital gains taxes in the UK, a person spending most of their time earning money in London, could set up an offshore bank account into which their earnings are paid, tax free, upon a receipt of an invoice of from a financial vehicle (such as an incorporated company registered in that country).

In addition, they could avoid any other local taxes and charges by buying a sports-cruiser (not a canal boat, houseboat or Dutch barge) and mooring it in a marina in Rotherhithe, London and registering that as their UK address.

But watch out! If your bank in your offshore tax-haven goes belly up and you lose all your money, don't expect to be compensated by the taxpayer as you would be if you had an account in the UK - you'll have to join the long list of other creditors and resign yourself to kissing your cash good-bye.
Posted by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
I thought we were going to get a good thread going here. Taxes reduce revenue. Why do liberals want to reduce revenue? Is it just to spite conservatives?
Posted by constitutionfirst 8 years ago
constitutionfirst
"Does no one really read the federalist papers any more?
Letters from a Farmer?

Heck, do you even bother reading, and I mean actually reading Locke?"

great point
Posted by constitutionfirst 8 years ago
constitutionfirst
"Our government was built on low taxes and limited government control"

Except that afterward they realized it takes a ton of money to pay off a war and began taxing whiskey sparking the whiskey rebellion
Posted by constitutionfirst 8 years ago
constitutionfirst
"Tax havens like the Bahamas increase their revenues dramatically by having very low tax rates."
I need a tax haven in the Bahamas - sounds delicious
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Sweatingjojo 8 years ago
Sweatingjojo
chevy10294SweatingjojoTied
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