The Instigator
brian.bors7
Pro (for)
The Contender
SuperTrooper44
Con (against)

"People enter hell trough no fault of their own" is true.

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Debate Round Forfeited
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/18/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 288 times Debate No: 102664
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

brian.bors7

Pro

Axioms within this debate
1. "Hell" within this debate is defined as "The place of punishment described in the Christian religion".
2. "fault" within this debate is defined as "responsibility for a misfortune".
3. "responsibility" within this debate is defined as "Being accountable by virtue of having control over the outcome"
3. "is true" within this debate is defined as "has more predictive merit when compared with any mutually exclusive statement" (A pragmatic theory of truth)

So the statement that is the topic of the debate could also be stated like so:
"People enter the place of punishment described in the Christian religion without them having control over this outcome and therefor not being responsible for this misfortune." is true.

Background
I am taking the position of Pro/for in this debate. I do not personally believe in the concept of hell because I deem it an unjust concept within the definition of justice provided by the Christian religion and I think this contradicts the concept of a loving and just god. Therefor I do not think the Christian religion is a correct model of reality.

I will attempt to show that hell is an unjust concept because either trough determinism or a form of randomness people end up doing evil things beyond their control. All choices are made either because of prior causes or because of random events, neither are a good basis for condemning people to eternal punishment (or even temporary punishment).

Opening statement
People are not responsible for their actions. They are born with a certain set of personality, genes, disposition and resources (which they did not choose) and trust into a seemingly random situation (which they did not choose). They make choices in life influenced by those factors. Some would say those factors are the only factors people base their choices on.

So let us take a murderer as an example. The person (let's name him Brian) chose to murder based on his personality (formed by his upbringing, etc) and the situation he was in at the time (formed by prior choices, his upbringing, etc) Neither of which he choose for ultimately based on choices he choose for himself.

Some people would state that there is a true form of quantum randomness in the world (or even other forms of randomness) that also have an influence on the choices people make. If this is true than Brian is in no form controlling this randomness. So Brian has no control over the situation he is in (which includes his personality and the roll of the random quantum dice) and therefor has no control of his choice.

Some people would state that Brian has a soul. And that soul has a free will. I do not personally believe in the soul, but lets state for this arguments sake that an undying soul exists.

Why do some souls in Brian his situation choose to murder and other souls in that same situation choose to not murder? Do "weak souls" exist? Or "evil souls"? And if so, what determines if a soul is weak or evil? If that is randomly determined it is not the control of Brian. And if Brian gets to choose his soul, with what personality, situation etc. is that choice made? Surely all those factors are beyond his control.

My conclusion is that whatever factors influence the choice (personality, genes, upbringing, situation, quantum randomness, strength of the soul, etc) they are all beyond the control of Brian. Therefor Brian is not accountable because he has no control over the cause and thus no control over the outcome. If Brian is not accountable he is not responsible. And if he is not responsible he is not at fault and if he is ever thrown in hell for murdering it is not his fault that he got there.
SuperTrooper44

Con

Don't trust religious beliefs, or you would be seen as delirious
your argument only begs the question that this quote is true and that hell exists, but doesn't present a hint of sources to back it up
Debate Round No. 1
brian.bors7

Pro

Thank you SuperTrooper44 for accepting my debate.

I am unsure wether or not you are understanding the topic of discussion. I do not intent to discuss the existence of hell. I agree with you that it probably doesn't exist. I certainly don't belief in it myself as I have stated.

I realise now that I have worded the statement poorly. I should have worded it ""If hell existed than people would enter hell trough no fault of their own" is true.", that would have made it clear that one of the axioms of the debate was that hell existed (even though I am sure it probably doesn't).

If you wish to continue the debate about my intended topic than we can continue. If not, I am sorry to waste everybodies time and I am sure I will be voted the loser of this debate.
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by brian.bors7 8 months ago
brian.bors7
The Goddess,

Thanks for your interest in this debate.

I personally don't believe in a "next life", but I am sure I can set that beside me in the case of this debate.

If a next life exists than I am pretty sure that you are correct in your assessment that "So what you do in this life determines your next life."

However my question resolves around whether or not you are at fault for what you do in this life.
Posted by brian.bors7 8 months ago
brian.bors7
SuperSith89,

Thanks for your interest in this debate.

I am not sure what your point is. You state that God gave us free will but don't answer the questions I pose in my opening statement specifically about this form of control over our choices.

Could you answer me why some souls choice hell and some souls choice heaven? What is the difference between those two souls and how did that difference occur?
Posted by The_Goddess 8 months ago
The_Goddess
False, everything that happens to you is karma so you are the reason for everything that happens to you. You create your own heaven and hell, so your actions and thoughts are the reason why you're in hell. Positive actions and thoughts in the world lead to a positive afterlife which is what people call "Heaven" and negative actions and thoughts in the world lead to a negative afterlife (hell). So what you do in this life determines your next life.
Posted by SuperSith89 8 months ago
SuperSith89
brian.bors7. I believe we do have control over our choices to go to heaven or hell. God does not send us to either and we send ourselves. It just depends on what you do in this life that decides where you go.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." And also John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Another Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord." The punishment is stated and the way out of punishment is stated here. We know what will come, yet we refuse to believe in it. We have a choice to go either way, and that is because God gave us free will. He gave it to us when He placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Eden. He let Adam choose whether to follow the rules or not. He still lets us to this day.

Now I see it like this. Say you are right about this. That means I wasted my life believing in something that was for good. So what. Let's say I am right about it. That means you lose an eternity. It's a 50/50 shot here and we have every choice leading up to it.
Posted by brian.bors7 8 months ago
brian.bors7
@Canis:

I agree with you.
Posted by brian.bors7 8 months ago
brian.bors7
FollowerofChrist1955,

Thanks for your intrest in this debate.

If hell exists (which I don't believe), than man certainly goes there by choice. I am not denying that. What I am denying is that they have control over their choices.

Could you answer me why some souls choice hell and some souls choice heaven? What is the difference between those two souls and how did that difference occur?
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 8 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
brian.bors7
You of course are wrong. God exists, and has made it self evident. That you refuse to look, is by choice, therefore Hell is a choice. You know there is a God, and at the first death experience man comes upon it is God he naturally seeks. This is because God has made SURE man KNOWS He exists AND has provided the evidence right in front and of the eyes of all men to see. By choice or arrogance man chooses to ignore these signs.

Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

So Hell s real and man goes there BY CHOICE! Scriptures declare it.
Posted by canis 8 months ago
canis
There is no "hell" as far as anybody knows....
Posted by brian.bors7 8 months ago
brian.bors7
Hey dsjpk5,

Thanks for your interest in my debate challenge. No I do not personally believe in hell, as stated in my opening statement. I state that if it does exists that it is an unjust concept because people get there by no fault of their own.
Posted by dsjpk5 8 months ago
dsjpk5
So you believe Hell exists, but that people get there by no fault of their own?
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