The Instigator
weather
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Puck
Pro (for)
Winning
14 Points

People get into Narnia via Aslan's choice.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Puck
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/30/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,453 times Debate No: 7599
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (2)

 

weather

Con

This is just a 3 round, the contender will be Pro Aslan's choice.

There are countless accounts of people entering through wardrobes caves and subways. It has to be by chance. For what reason would aslan bring in the pirates who took over narnia and killed most of the Narnians? Why would he bring Jadus in with the cabby and the uncle? It is all by chance and you can't prove me wrong.
Puck

Pro

===========================
Holy Christian symbolism, Batman!
===========================

TCoN, written by C.S. Lewis is the portrayal of Lewis' personal theological discourse. Aimed at a primarily younger audience they can be seen to be in essence a teaching guide for readers into what he views as the correct forms of existence in relation to a personal God.

On an amusing aside, Tolkien, his mentor rebuked him for being far too obvious.

===========================
I am God, hear me roar.
===========================

The basest analogy between the Bible and TCoN - Aslan represents the trinity (3 as 1 Lewis style - important later). Though more commonly portrayed as redemption (Christ figure - the point of the series after all) he also represents God the creator (namely in the Magicians Nephew) and the "spirit of Aslan" is referred to throughout the series to complete the trifecta.

Aslan's creation of Narnia is a copy of his own land - "Aslan's Country" (as is Earth and all other worlds). The sole purpose of this duplication is it is the form through which those who would be awarded salvation shall be picked (see The Last Battle). Only those Aslan could trust and respect into his own world. The rest are well..made to suffer; Narnia is destroyed after all by dragons and giant lizards and there is the land of Tash (the devil).

===========================
Don't play poker with Aslan.
===========================

Why he holds all the cards.

(1)Fulfilment of Golden age prophecy:

Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bares his teeth, winter meets its death,
And when he shakes his mane, we will have spring again,
When Adam's flesh and Adam's bone,
Sits at Cair Paravel in throne,
The evil time will be over and done.

The prophecy tells of Aslan defeating the White Witch (Jadis) and the arrival of the 4 siblings from LWW...keep this in mind.

(2)Aslan's actions with the Witch led to his death. However, when the Witch executed him, he was resurrected, proving he was the Narnian saviour - eventually killing her personally (prophecy!).
(3)Aslan judged every creature who had died in Narnia. (TLB).
(4)When meeting Aslan the Pevensies (4 children from LWW) are told that they will rule over Narnia when Jadis is destroyed.

So we have the clear understanding of Aslan knowledge of the prophecy and its fulfilment. Aslan knew of Jadis - indeed he required her in Narnia as a counterfoil for the Penvises and forms part of the standard from which to judge those whom are worthy to enter true Narnia (see Edmund in LWW).

Similarly with the pirates, for Prince Caspian to rule he must be descended from a "son of Adam" i.e. they are needed for Caspian X to reign in Narnia. The kingdom and lineage derived from those pirates allows him to establish the more virtuous kingdom - an important aspect for the judging those who are worthy.

Free will is dominant in the series - the more negative inhabitants are generally discussed in this manner - and it's an important concept through which Aslan is either seen/felt or not and the ultimate judgement that occurs.

Prince Caspian was a believer in Aslan without firsthand experience - this virtue is a common theme (faith) and it's this form of faith that enabled Lucy to enter the wardrobe (she alone of the Penvises had unending faith in Aslan).

===========================
Time is like water...become the cup.
===========================

He is everywhere all the time.

""Narnian time flows differently from ours. If you spent a hundred years in Narnia, you would still come back to our world at the very same hour of the very same day on which you left.""

""Please, Aslan," said Lucy, "what do you call soon?"
"I call all times soon," said Aslan."

Aslan exists in all time references (see Lewis' own writings on belief of time oddities -"Almost certainly God is not in Time." - Mere Christianity).

Aslan has meta control - is omnipotent "an all powerful roar" (removed from free will of individuals - see below).

""You see," said Aslan. "They will not let us help them. They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their own minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out.""

""There are *no accidents.* Our guide is Aslan; and he was there when the giant king caused the letters to be cut, and he knew already all things that would come of them; including this.""

Aslan to Jill: "... You have done the work for which *I sent you* into Narnia."

Aslan has control of his domain. Its creation was for his sole purpose.
Debate Round No. 1
weather

Con

Although I did enjoy the evangelical message, there are a couple question I must ask. If God and Aslan are the same, than does God, who is loving, send His children to Hell? Does Aslan have His people kills in battle? Does Aslan ruin his own country by bringing Jades in? Does Aslan Plan that man will come and smash the Narnians? I don't think Aslan would want himself killed. But if you look at the other side, does it seem more logical that we happen to go to hell by chance that we choose to, or Jades happened to be touching the horse and everyone else, and taints the new magical land by chance? Does it seem logical that Aslan would come into our world and opened a door for the people to get in?

Allow me to talk about the wardrobe. Now if you remember, the wardrobe from tLWatW was made of the fallen magical apple tree that Digory got from the garden in Narnia. Aslan had him plant it to keep the which away, By the time Aslan and Digory got back there was another apple that Aslan let Digory get for his dieing mother. He planted the core in his backyard (along with the rings) and when the tree fell in a Gail, he had it made into the wardrobe. The Wardrobe was magical and unpredictable, and as we learned Aslan was not there to open the door, and there were just roomers of him on the move when all of them arrived at the beavers.

Now with you Christian symbolism thing, this is really a debate of "Free will vs. predestination" in a fiction form and you are on the side that says God is sending people to hell.
Puck

Pro

"If God and Aslan are the same, than does God, who is loving, send His children to Hell?"

All references to theological query about Narnia are framed within Lewis' own ideas.

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell."
-Lewis, The Great Divorce

As I noted in the prior round free will is one of the singular most important constructs in the series. Lewis is arguing against predestination (God chooses) and instead argues that peoples decisions in life are ultimately what lead to their downfall (Susan, Jadis, Nikabrik etc.) or their salvation. This is why Calormenes (essentially archetypal Pagans) enter True Narnia. Which leads to another Lewis' theological argument - the types of choices made have as much bearing on the judgement enacted in TLB as does 'belief'.

Lewis' characters are set to the virtue/vice dynamic. These archetypes are the means through which Lewis intends to teach his readers. Those who do good deeds in the name of Tash are awarded placement in True Narnia, those who do less than good in the name of Aslan do not enter. Those creatures that are apathetic about belief are judged on that basis as well -Susan the archetype materialist/cynic does not enter True Narnia. Peter who started along the same road (scepticism - he believes he does not need Aslan to win the battle in PC - i.e. without the spirit of Aslan) but regains his lost faith - does enter. Nikabrik the full cynic suffers a less than enviable fate. Polly who retains her faith her whole life enters True Narnia and becomes youthful again (TLB).

Another interesting aside - Lewis had strong pagan roots, found he admired pagan spirituality and in many ways held it in higher regard to Christianity. "To become a Christian one must first be a pagan." TCoN are littered with references to pagan traditions - arguably as much as Christianity - he lamented he often prayed like a pagan. ;) He held the same disdain as Tolkien did for the destruction of natural environments - evil characters in both of their series destroy trees with glee abandon.

"Does Aslan have His people kills in battle?"

Did those who fight for Aslan die? Some did yes - there are several battles between the great beasts throughout the series - Aslan in TLB judges *all* who have died in Narnia meaning those that fell under his banner were awarded entry into True Narnia.

"Does Aslan ruin his own country by bringing Jad[i]s in?"

Not at all - she is given the chance of redemption after the destruction of Charm. It is through her actions that lead ultimately to her death. Faithful remain even during the endless winter - the type of virtue repeated in PC (a type of virtue Lewis wants to bash into his readers) where the Prince believes wholly in Aslan though all he has are tales. Lucy is the archetypal faithful character, she is the one who is able to enter Narnia initially (childlike faith at that instant) she alone feels the presence of Aslan in CP, she is the first to see him.

""Aslan," said Lucy, "you're bigger."
"That is because you are older, little one," answered he.
"Not because you are?"
"I am not. But every year you grow, you will find me bigger.""

As her faith grows so does Aslan.

"Does Aslan Plan that man will come and smash the Narnians?"

Plan would be predestination which is against what Lewis believed. Aslan introduces necessary elements into Narnia through which individuals may earn their salvation or not.

"I don't think Aslan would want himself killed."

He does to fulfil the Christian analogy part (and prophecy to become Narnia's saviour). The stone table he is sacrificed upon most likely represents Mosaic law - on the table is written eye for an eye retribution - Jadis has the right to take a life for every act of treason which is why Aslan sacrificed himself (Christ on cross) for the sake of Edmund (archetype sinner/born again). The stone table breaks indicating that this way is no longer valid (transition of OT law into NT teaching).

"But if you look at the other side, does it seem more logical that we happen to go to hell by chance that we choose to"

According to Lewis it's choice. That is all that is relevant to the debate.

"Jad[i]s happened to be touching the horse and everyone else, and taints the new magical land by chance?"

Her actions, not chance. The same actions which lead to her death and eventual judgement in TLB.
Diggory plants the tree 'copy' from a seed of the Tree of Protection. The copy reacts to events of the Tree of Protection - it moves when the parent tree does (a copy itself). The Tree of Protection dies presumably by actions of Jadis - she cannot approach the tree - so we can assume magic (she did destroy her home world - and the Earth copy tree is destroyed by lightning).

Diggory builds the wardrobe from the fallen tree which allows the Penvises to enter. Jadis' persecution of them leads to her eventual death. It's her actions that lead to her downfall - she has the option to not be evil - albeit an even duller narrative would have ensued but that wasn't Lewis' intent at any rate. Her choice of actions fulfils the prophecy of her destruction - that's what Lewis drives at.

All Aslan needs is to have those necessary elements should they occasion merit. He *sends* Eustace and Jill into Narnia *specifically* for similar purposes as were the Penvises brought into Narnia.

"Nothing ever happens the same way twice"
Indicating Aslan's motives behind it all.

"Does it seem logical that Aslan would come into our world and opened a door for the people to get in"

The creation of Narnia was for the sole purpose of judging both those created as part (the great beasts) and those of other worlds for entry into True Narnia (see TLB, R1).
Debate Round No. 2
weather

Con

weather forfeited this round.
Puck

Pro

Fun times...
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
Neil Gaiman's The Problem of Susan (2006; Fragile Things, New York: William Morrow) has a mature (read not for children :P) critique of The Last Battle.
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
"Rule 34 on lewis?"

She did lay with him for a full day. :P
Posted by TheSkeptic 8 years ago
TheSkeptic
Obvious winner is PRO.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"she alone feels the presence of Aslan in CP"

Rule 34 on lewis?
Posted by weather 8 years ago
weather
UGH I have no spare time with school sorry for the disappointment, because I could smoush you resolution.
Posted by weather 8 years ago
weather
there ya go puck
Posted by Justinisthecrazy 8 years ago
Justinisthecrazy
this is rather dumb.......
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
Shorten the amount of rounds and I'll take it up.
Posted by TheSexicanMexican 8 years ago
TheSexicanMexican
Wow this uh kinda a pointless debate, but w/e good luck to both con and whoever pro may be
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Maikuru 8 years ago
Maikuru
weatherPuckTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by TheSkeptic 8 years ago
TheSkeptic
weatherPuckTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07