The Instigator
RandomName
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Skynet
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

People need to stop hating Scientology.

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/1/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,470 times Debate No: 20802
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

RandomName

Pro

I am sick of people saying bad things about Scientology.

Please, before you start debating with me, at least know what Scientology is.
http://www.beliefnet.com...
Skynet

Con

Interesting...
I will agree with my opponent that he is sick of people saying bad things about Scientology.

I did go to his link, and added to my knowledge of Scientology.

Best of luck.
Debate Round No. 1
RandomName

Pro

I would like to thank you for accepting my debate. On to the arguing!

I, personally, am tired of people going out of their way to discredit Scientology.

Scientology is no more of a silly idea than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. This is what people believe and they can easily say equal things about any religion.

I am not trying to say anyone's beliefs are wrong but I am saying you (not you in particular, just people in general) need to stop saying others beliefs are incorrect.
Skynet

Con

Skynet forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
RandomName

Pro

Could you please explain to me why scientologists deserve such horrid treatment? As I stated before, you can say equal things about any religion. And I'm about to.

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Scientology summed up:

There was an alien battle in outer space and the spirits of the aliens entered certain human's bodies. The presence of these alien spirits is measured by things called Thetan Meters. To clear you soul of evil you must pay $250 an hour to be hypnotized.
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Christianity summed up:

A big wizard lives in the sky and sent his baby down to earth to die because everyone was mean to each other. If you don't say he is real he will throw lightning bolts at you and you live with a goat man underground in a house made of fire forever.
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Judaism summed up:

Still waiting for god to send his kid down here.
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Islam summed up:

Basically the same as Christianity but god has no son. And no booze or weed.
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I do not believe in these things and this is just and over-exaggeration to prove my point. I do not mean to offend anyone.

Except for the Christians. They deserve it.
Skynet

Con


I wish you had made your position more clear in the first round, but no matter. I think I understand:


Scientology is no different than any other fairy tale religion, so why does it get so much more criticism than any of those other religions?


I would like a real life example of what you mean by "horrid treatment." Are you referring to mockery, or something more serious? I haven't heard of stonings or burnings of Scientologists, but I do know that much more than mere mockery has been committed against members of the other religions you mentioned.



http://www.biblebelievers.com...



http://www.ushmm.org...




    • 10 Policies towards Muslims




All the religions you cited claim to be founded upon ancient, spiritual truths that were written down in ancient times, and are claimed to be consistent throughout history. The claims of the religion are supported by the antiquity of the documents they are drawn from. This antiquity makes them more believable as first-hand accounts of an original, underlying truth. Such as: God created everything for his own purposes, and therefore is sovereign, worthy of praise, and he determines morality, etc. If a religion is connected to the ultimate truth it is ultimately true, and therefore the True Religion.



If it seems that the religion is not connected to the ultimate truth, and is a later fabrication, it is in conflict to the real truth, and therefore, a lie. People who believe lies do things out of line with reality. If you think you can charge everything to your credit card and never pay more than the minimum monthly payment, you are believing a mathematical lie, and you will be financially hurt. If you proselytize your mathematical fallacy, you are hurting anyone you convince, and should be stopped. Many religious people believe the same thing about spiritual matters.



Now, to tie it all together:



The ancient texts that underlie Judaism are Genesis to Malachi: the Tanakh. Genesis starts with the pre-universe existence of God, who then creates the universe, all life, and everything else spirit and material. The history is passed down through generations, through the Flood of Noah, and from his son, Jephthah on down to Abraham (who WAS most likely literate considering his wealthy cosmopolitan origins in ancient Mesopotamia), and on down through his descendant Moses, who did the final composition. An account of original truth must be one that can be connected to the original event. The truths presented are supported by a lineage of prophets who consistently presented more truth that didn't contradict the earlier underlying truths. (That was one of the Litmus tests of a prophet. Deuteronomy 13:2)



Christianity shares all those texts and beliefs about the beginning, and the main difference, as you noted, is that it claims the fulfillment of certain critical prophesies.



Islam claims connection with the truths in both prior religions, connecting itself with original truth:


Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) - "Say: 'People of the Book, you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord."


However, Mohammed claimed other truths that are contrary to truths claimed in "the Book," and made his claims 500 years after Christianity established it's books. (Matthew-Revelation) When someone claims to be historically accurate, but he contradicts claims made in texts he claims support him, (Christ is merely a human prophet, and Ishmael was actually the chosen son), that causes people who are familiar with the earlier history to perceive this Johnny-come-lately prophet as a fraud. He is seen as a liar, and therefore harmful to people who he convinces, since now their actions will be contrary to reality.



Scientology has a similar, but much more severe lack of credibility over even Islam to those who believe the former religions, since L. Ron Hubbard prophesied previously unheard of things in the mid-1900's, with no connection to a previous written claim to truth. Hubbard also claims to know of events through spiritual means that happened



Even if one views those more ancient religions with the highest skepticism, at the very least, they go back farther toward a connection with original truth than Scientology. All three of the religions you compared it to have a literary claim on history going back more than a millennium, while Scientology's first prophet only started writing a few decades ago.


Hubbard also claims to know of events through a different life that supposedly happened millions of years ago. In contrast, Christianity and Judaism's prophets claim to know things through events that happened during their actual known lives.



http://web.archive.org...


(see “space opera”)



Scientology leads people away from God and to eternal death according to those religions. Most people, religious or not, hold that misleading a person to their death is a heinous and hateable offense.



My opponent's premise is that a particular religion does not deserve to be singled out and picked on, and queries why they would. Yet at the end, he singles out a particular religion for extra persecution:



“I do not mean to offend anyone.

Except for the Christians. They deserve it.”



By his own unbacked assertion, he invalidates his confidence in his own resolution.

Debate Round No. 3
RandomName

Pro

Wow, that's a lot of words. I'll just do my best.

You said: "I would like a real life example of what you mean by "horrid treatment." Are you referring to mockery, or something more serious?"

I speak of intense mockery. But there is no way to know what will happen.

You said: "All the religions you cited claim to be founded upon ancient, spiritual truths that were written down in ancient times, and are claimed to be consistent throughout history."

What truths? The bible is based on speculation. No scientific truth of the Bible,Torah, or Quran exist.

You said: "Scientology has a similar, but much more severe lack of credibility over even Islam to those who believe the former religions, since L. Ron Hubbard prophesied previously unheard of things in the mid-1900's, with no connection to a previous written claim to truth."

What's with the "severe lack of credibility over even Islam" thing?

You said: "Even if one views those more ancient religions with the highest skepticism, at the very least, they go back farther toward a connection with original truth than Scientology. All three of the religions you compared it to have a literary claim on history going back more than a millennium, while Scientology's first prophet only started writing a few decades ago."

Christianity had a beginning too.

You said: "Scientology leads people away from God and to eternal death according to those religions."

There is no god in Scientology. Why is a god needed to have a religion?

As I stated before, There is no reason to hate Scientology more than any other religion.
Skynet

Con


RandomName, FYI, you can set the character limit when you create a debate. You left it at 8k, I used just over 6k.



It also helps an argument to supply credible evidence in the form of sources. When asked to clarify “horrid treatment,” my opponent only replied:



“I speak of intense mockery. But there is no way to know what will happen.”



While I think my opponent could easily have come up with a link to a South Park or dated Anonymous video to clarify the mockery he speaks of, he did not. (I'm new to debating in a more formal format, too, so this is meant more as a constructive critique.) His second sentence alludes to the unpredictability of future events, as if this were evidence of anything.




“What truths? The bible is based on speculation. No scientific truth of the Bible,Torah, or Quran exist.”



    I don't know of a religion that claims to be false. Previously, my opponent listed, in satire, some of the truths of 4 religions as he perceives them. These truths are claimed truths. Not all claims are truth. On the other hand, a truth is a truth whether you believe it or not, and true claims have been made.



    I was careful previously to use the term “claimed truth,” as I can see that a direct proclamation by me that Jesus is Lord might derail this debate, as my opponent has already voiced his personal bias against my religion. For the sake of diplomatic atmosphere, I am attempting to make my language palatable to him.



    In short, my opponent already knows something of the claimed truths of the four comparative religions he chose in this debate, so I am confused as to why he asked this. This debate is “People need to stop hating Scientology.” Which people are not specified, but later my opponent mentioned Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and professed to know something about their religions as well, so I explained why those people would have reasons to hate Scientology.



    I went about this not by showing that the claims of the other three Monotheistic religions are true and Scientology are false, but by showing that the other religions' base claims are more believable and logical than those of Scientology.



    “Christianity had a beginning too.”



    Judaism and Christianity, and to a degree Islam, claim the same first book of Genesis, which would have been a first hand account of creation that would have been passed down from Adam. This account would have been taken down in his natural life, and we know that people have natural lives.



    Scientology claims an account by L. Ron Hubbard that would have been taken down in a previous life, and previous lives are not known to science.



    The Biblical account claims events that occurred 6k-10k years ago, and were passed down by written tradition. We know that written records can convey truth over long periods of time.



    Scientology claims knowledge was lost for 75 million years, and was not passed down through conventional means, but later revealed through hypnotic “auditing,” to determine what happened in a past life. I think this is not a method of preserving history that most people would see as reliable, as the information Hubbard brought forth was unprecedented and unverified by other 75 million year old sources, as we have no know 75 million year old witnesses.



    I will concede this debate if my opponent can do this:


    Demonstrate that information gained from hypnotic auditing of past lives is as verifiable as a source of truth, as information in a book that has been written and past down by people in their natural lives.



    If you can convince me of this, people of the Monotheistic religions you mentioned deserve Scientology a second look.



    “There is no god in Scientology. Why is a god needed to have a religion?”



    I never claimed a god is necessary for a religion. However, if you believe in a god and the consequences of that god existing, it would follow that heresy would be harmful: That is the reason for people to hate Scientology. They see it as heresy, or at the least, a harmful lie inconsistent with the truth they know. They are doing what they think is right by protecting their fellow man from perceived harm.



    “What's with the "severe lack of credibility over even Islam" thing?”



    Islam's prophecies brought forth new data about established doctrine that was contradictory to the old data. Either the Quaran is correct, or the Bible is correct, not both. It is more believable that the Bible is correct since the new information contradicts prior eye-witness accounts of the Bible, and Mohammed could not have been an eye-witness to anything before 500 A.D.

    Debate Round No. 4
    RandomName

    Pro

    I'll just jump right in.

    You said: "RandomName, FYI, you can set the character limit when you create a debate. You left it at 8k, I used just over 6k."

    Yes I understand that. I do not mind, it's just I have never been in such a lengthy debate.

    You said: "While I think my opponent could easily have come up with a link to a South Park or dated Anonymous video to clarify the mockery he speaks of, he did not."

    I could not find a video of the South Park incident that I felt was up to my standards and I could not locate the Anonymous video. I have included the South park video but it is of poor quality.

    You said: "These truths are claimed truths. Not all claims are truth. On the other hand, a truth is a truth whether you believe it or not, and true claims have been made."

    I apologise but this is truly confusing.

    You said: "This debate is "People need to stop hating Scientology." Which people are not specified, but later my opponent mentioned Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and professed to know something about their religions as well, so I explained why those people would have reasons to hate Scientology."

    I speak of society in general, not just the religions listed.

    You said: "Scientology claims knowledge was lost for 75 million years, and was not passed down through conventional means, but later revealed through hypnotic "auditing," to determine what happened in a past life. I think this is not a method of preserving history that most people would see as reliable, as the information Hubbard brought forth was unprecedented and unverified by other 75 million year old sources, as we have no know 75 million year old witnesses."

    Why is this not as believable as any religion?

    You said: "Demonstrate that information gained from hypnotic auditing of past lives is as verifiable as a source of truth, as information in a book that has been written and past down by people in their natural lives."

    Just because it is in a book does not make it true. I would like to restate my position that all religions are equally unbelievable. Each has their way and one should not be singled out like Scientology has.

    You said: "They see it as heresy, or at the least, a harmful lie inconsistent with the truth they know. They are doing what they think is right by protecting their fellow man from perceived harm."

    All religion is heresy.

    You said: "Islam's prophecies brought forth new data about established doctrine that was contradictory to the old data. Either the Quran is correct, or the Bible is correct, not both. It is more believable that the Bible is correct since the new information contradicts prior eye-witness accounts of the Bible, and Mohammed could not have been an eye-witness to anything before 500 A.D."

    I would like to see why "Mohammad could not have been an eye-witness to anything before 500 A.D."

    As I stated several times before: All religion is equal.
    Skynet

    Con

    All religion is heresy.”

    Heresy is opinion or doctrine at odds with established orthodoxy.[1] What established orthodoxy is all religion at odds with? I'm not sure how to respond to this. The only conclusion I can come to is that my opponent does not understand the word “heresy.”

    I would like to see why "Mohammad could not have been an eye-witness to anything before 500 A.D."

    Mohammed was born in 570.[3] 500 was 70 years before he was born. He could not be an eye-witness to things before he was born.

    As I stated several times before: All religion is equal.”

    My opponent has not backed this up with anything other than blanket statements and cliches.

    -He said the Bible is based on speculation, but does not elaborate what was speculated, and explain why it is speculation.

    -He caricatures several well-known religions, as if that were evidence of anything other than his own disdain.

    -He says, “No scientific truth of the Bible,Torah, or Quran exist.” This ignores the historical significance of such documents, which include political, military, cultural, and architectural items that have been verified through archeology. [4]

    The debate was “People need to stop hating Scientology.” I have provided evidence that there are people with good reason to dislike it on the grounds that it is less credible than other religions. Even if belief in anything supernatural is rejected or assumed unknown, L. Ron Hubbard's claim to have had first hand knowledge of a past life 75 million years ago is less credible than books which contain first hand accounts taken from people's natural lives. L. Ron Hubbard's is a very incredible story, to use the true meaning of the word.

    To put it more simply, my opponent does not seem to understand why a sentence starting with,

    “I remember when I was a boy...”

    would be more credible than

    “I remember when I was in the Jurassic Period...”

    I speak of society in general, not just the religions listed.”

    Irrelevant. Society in general contains many people who are part of the religions stated above. My opponent does not understand why people would hate lies that they feel may harm them, a reason some atheists cite as to why they crusade against all religion. [2]

    My opponent has supplied no clear grounds that people need to stop hating Scientology. As far as most people who read this debate will be concerned, they can continue hating whatever they want. To further contradict his own point:

    As I stated several times before: All religion is equal...I do not mean to offend anyone.

    Except for the Christians. They deserve it.”

    1 http://dictionary.reference.com...

    2 http://en.wikipedia.org...

    3 http://en.wikipedia.org...

    4 http://en.wikipedia.org...

    Debate Round No. 5
    3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
    Posted by Skynet 5 years ago
    Skynet
    Thanks, man.
    Posted by RandomName 5 years ago
    RandomName
    It's alright. Congrats on the wedding, too.
    Posted by Skynet 5 years ago
    Skynet
    I really must apologize for forfeiting. I got caught up in planning my wedding. I will allow you to elaborate in the next round, and I will make an earnest effort to answer in the next round.
    No votes have been placed for this debate.