The Instigator
Jhate
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
zgb1997
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

People who are suicidal should not be put into impatient facilities, or an insane asylum.

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/31/2012 Category: Health
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,880 times Debate No: 26775
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

Jhate

Pro

I will be debating that suicidal people as well as those who are not emotionally healthy and that cut or harm themselves through medicine, self mutilation, and other methods should not be put into an impatient facilities or insane asylum.

First round is acceptance.
:)
zgb1997

Con

I would like to accept this debate.

As the con side, my task will be to prove that people who are suicidal, prone to self-harm etc. should indeed be placed into medical institutions, and give reasons why.

I impatiently await my opponent's arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
Jhate

Pro

To clear things up, here is the definition of suicidal that is to be used.

su·i·cid·al/ËŒsoÍ"oiˈsÄ«dl/
Adjective:
Deeply unhappy or depressed and likely to commit suicide.
Relating to or likely to lead to suicide.

*Also we can refer to people who have attempted suicide to be suicidal.

I believe people who are suicidal should not be placed into medical institutions. I beleive there are other methods that can help someone who is suicidal. Someone who is suicidal is not always mentally ill. Often times they suffer from great depression. This is a list of my reasons why and i will then explain each one

-There are other ways to help someone suicidal
-Suicidal people should not be iscolated, they should be helped
-Suicide watch is effective
-People still can kill themselves in mental hospitals.

There are other ways to help someone suicidal
Medication is a method that is common and can help and also helps some. Many people who are suicidal feel alone, therapy can also be a help and counseling although some counslers will consult and request that you go into a inpatient facilitiy but many counslers help and try to talk it out.

Suicidal people should not be iscolated.
Those who are suicidal often feel alone as mentioned earlier. Why iscolate someone who already feels alone? Why should someone be put in a room where they cant harm themselves, wheren they question why they are being locked up and not helped. Iscolation does not help. Basically people who are suicidal and need help are put in a "jail" and made to feel helpless.


Suicide watch can be just as effective.
Suicide watch is a good alternative that still gives someone freedom of contiuning a daily life. Suicide watch is not just a prisoner, or patient who is at risk of hurting themself. Often times students at schools who are suffering from this behavior have to have someone follow them around and monitor all of their activity. Now you may be thinking "well they have no freedom". No they have freedom to do what they want and just have someone making sure they are ok. This can be effective and better than locking someone up.

People can still kill themselves in mental hospitals.


http://bjp.rcpsych.org...
Here are some statistics showing death in some hospitals. This can result in the iscolation and not being able to see any of their friends who are around them

People who are suicidal should definitely not be placed in these facilities.








zgb1997

Con

I thank my opponent for presenting these arguments.

I shall now offer my rebuttal to my opponent's claims, followed by my own argumentation.


There are other ways to help someone suicidal

My opponent names medication and counselling as examples of other methods of helping someone suicidal. Those methods exist indeed, but they are used in inpatient facilities and asylums just as well. The only advantage is that, for example, in a medical facility, a patient must undergo counselling and the staff will make sure he/she does in case he/she refuses help. As for medication, it is actually better for it to be administered in medical facilities since that allows trained staff to constantly monitor the effects of the medication and the state of the patient.
Yes, there are many methods of treating suicidal people, and those methods are being used in medical institutions just as well, albeit with strict supervision by trained staff members and in a controlled environment with less opportunities for the patient to, for example, make an attempt to overdose himself/herself with medication.
Thus, this point in no way proves that patients shouldn't be placed in medical facilities and actually shows that any method can be better implemented in a medical institution.


Suicidal people should not be isolated

Suicidal people get isolated from the outside world, yes. But they get isolated because they can't live and function normally in the outside world. It's not a nice experience, but security comes first. Yes, they feel alone. Yes, that's really not nice. But it is better that they feel alone than that they kill themselves. Patients who are suicidal are in severe emotional distress and often suffer from psychiatric disorders, and inside the facility they are often contacted with, evaluated and constantly watched. My point is that they are not "jailed" - they are put under supervision to ensure they do not hurt themselves, which is the first stage of treatment, so one cannot claim they are being "locked up and not helped." Such patients are anything but jailed and left alone - it would be folly to treat a patient in such a way.

As stated on http://www.aafp.org...:

Patients with a plan, access to lethal means, recent social stressors and symptoms suggestive of a psychiatric disorder should be hospitalized immediately. The family should be informed of the decision to proceed with hospitalization, and the patient should not be left alone while he or she is transferred to a more secure environment. (...) When someone's life is in imminent danger, confidentiality may be breached.

Here it is clearly pointed out that suicidal patients must be hospitalized due to them being and extreme danger to themselves and potentially others, which is why, as it is stated, confidentiality may be breached. Even if the patient undergoes discomfort, it is but in the most severe cases and serves only to help the patient. Hospitalization occurs when it becomes the only way to prevent a patients from hurting themselves or others, and that's why hospitalization of such patients is in practice.


Suicide watch can be just as effective

Suicide watch is used as a method of supervision when patients are considered to be well enough to lead their own lives with, of course, supervision. But there are many patients who are just not well enough for that method to be used and they get hospitalized, simple as that. One can argue whether or not suicide watch should be used as a method after a patient successfully undergoes the first stage of treatment whilst being hospitalized, but suicide watch cannot be used as an alternative to hospitalization.


People can still kill themselves in mental hospitals

Yes, they can. That cannot be denied. But it is safe to say that one runs a lesser risk of a patient killing themselves is they are under strict supervision and in a controlled environment. Of course that hospitalization cannot eliminate the risk. However, the risk can be significantly reduced.


After offering my rebuttal, I shall proceed to offering my own argumentation.

I believe that suicidal patients ought to be placed in medical institutions.
Now, why is that so? Why must they be hospitalized?

Insanity and severe disorders

Such people fit into the definition of "insane".
Insanity, craziness or madness is a spectrum of behaviors characterized by certain abnormal mental or behavioral patterns. Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including a person becoming a danger to themselves or others, though not all such acts are considered insanity. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

As stated in the definition, the mental patterns and behavior of those people is abnormal and they pose a threat to themselves and sometimes others (we often see cases of people committing murder followed by suicide). Those people are in emotional distress and suffer from severe medical conditions. Medical conditions ought to be treated in medical institutions, hence the name "medical institution". Hospitalization serves as a prerequisite for the treatment of such people - their psychological symptoms must be lessened and their behavioral patterns normalized before they can be reintegrated into society. Their condition renders them unable to live normally amongst other people, thus they must be treated until they are able to do so.
For example, if you buy a computer game incompatible with the operational system you got installed, you will upgrade the system so it becomes compatible. You won't try to install the game anyway and hope it works. Because you know it won't work.

Medical institutions offer the best care for patients

Medical institutions are specialized for dealing with certain types of diseases and disorders and equipped accordingly. Thus, a mental institution can offer the best possible care for suicidal people. It offers state-of-the-art equipment, the newest and most potent drugs etc., and all that can be used and implemented in safe conditions. It is obvious how this is much better than any other method, especially keeping in mind my first argument. Patients with disorders can be treated correctly and in safe conditions - one can hardly find better reason for hospitalization.



After my rebuttal and argumentation, I believe I have made it obvious why suicidal people should be placed in medical institutions.

Back to my opponent.
Debate Round No. 2
Jhate

Pro

There are many ways to help someone suicidial.
Con said "Yes, there are many methods of treating suicidal people, and those methods are being used in medical institutions just as well, albeit with strict supervision by trained staff members and in a controlled environment with less opportunities for the patient to, for example, make an attempt to overdose himself/herself with medication."

These facilities do not just limit patients chances of suicide. Just about every place allows no electronics. No tvs. No cell phones. And a landline phone. There are also visiting hours. How is taking away cell phones and music things helping someone? These methods just make someone more depressed.

Answer this please: Lets say i am suicidial, i cut, i hurt myself and i have a best friend who has kept me from killing myself and who has been helping me. Well i get put into a facilitie where i get no freedom to talk to my friend. I get more depressed without the things i love. No freedom, iscolated, i can not tell my friends where i am so they can come visit because i do not have their number remembered.

This can seriously have an affect. As i stated earlier people do kill themselves in these facilities so obviously the oppurtunity is not limited to much. Why punish someone who hurts themself? Why not figure out a better method instead of locking them up?


Suicidal people should not be isolated
People do suffer from th ese disorders but as stated in the source you gave me "

It is not the psychiatric disorder itself that increases the risk of completed suicide, but the combination of the psychiatric disorder and a stressor, such as the death of a loved one, separation, divorce or recent unemployment.1,9"

90% of suicide autopsys find phsychatrical disorders, but it is stated it is not the disorder it self. So to help someone how do you bring back aloved one or fix a divorce? You dont. a facilitie just makes things worse.



"one cannot claim they are being "locked up and not helped."

They are locked up as i stated earlier, no electronics, no tv, and limited visitor hours.
Sure some of them are helped but others kill themselves in the facilitie or dont show progress so really its not helping them forcing them to stay.


" Here it is clearly pointed out that suicidal patients must be hospitalized due to them being and extreme danger to themselves and potentially others, which is why, as it is stated, confidentiality may be breached. Even if the patient undergoes discomfort, it is but in the most severe cases and serves only to help the patient. Hospitalization occurs when it becomes the only way to prevent a patients from hurting themselves or others, and that's why hospitalization of such patients is in practice."

Now read this

"Patients with a plan, access to lethal means, recent social stressors and symptoms suggestive of a psychiatric disorder should be hospitalized immediately."

This says patients with a plan (suicide plan), access to lethal means should be hospitalaized. This is referring to those who are already patients and are seen with a weapon to hurt themselves or are seen making a suicide plan. So these people are already in facilities so how do we not konw the facilitie created a feeling of hopelessness?


Con said "But there are many patients who are just not well enough for that method to be used and they get hospitalized, simple as that." (referring back to suicide watch)

People are placed in facilities for thoughts of suicide as well so how do we determine who really needs severe help? If we just send everyone who thinks or trys suicide to these facilities without a chance to help them without taking freedom then what is the point?


It can reduce the risk of suicide but take the percentage of those who commit suicide.

If you read this site it will tell you that most who commit suicide or attempt are not psychotic or crazy.
http://www.suicideoutreach.org...

Being insane and being suicidal are two diffrent things. Yes being insane can lead to suicide but we are talking about suicidal intentions. Not things that involve insane. It is proven those who are insane often can not fucntion or reason. Those who are suicidal can reason.


This is about suicidal people. People who are insane are on an entireley diffrent level. Those who are insane are not placed into the same facilities as suicidal people. Suicidal people should be helped in other ways first. These facilities take things away from people and isolate them. Those who are suicidal should be helped diffrently








zgb1997

Con

Before proceeding to this third round I would like to thank my opponent for presenting his rebuttal.

Now, back to the debate.


There are many ways to help someone suicidal

My opponent remarks that the facility exaggerates by taking away electronics, cell phones etc. I agree that it can be considered isolation in a way, as I already stated in round 2, but that isolation is a necessary precaution. Another thing I've stated in round 2 is that most suicidal people have psychiatric disorders and/or suffer from emotional distress, and such precautions are necessary to prevent anything from giving patients, for example, a flashback. One can argue that those regulations are incredibly strict, but none can deny they are justified, as I have shown in round 2 and once again now. As for how it makes patients depressed, preventing depression is one of the main goal of those facilities and they place great importance on that goal, so I doubt that trained staff would practice methods that just encourage depression in patients.

As for the given example, of course you can talk to your friend and that's what visiting hours are for. By the way, not only is counselling available in those facilities, but it is obligatory. It's not like they lock you up and leave you there. And I feel compelled to ask my opponent if he truly believes that not having one's number remembered prevents contact? That is simply illogical. One can, for example, simply give the staff the name of said friend and they can reach him.

My opponent concludes by indirectly stating these facilities are punishment and asks why can there not be a better method - firstly, one must differentiate between precautions and punishment. Punishment is enacted for one's wrongdoings, while precautions are enacted solely for the preservation of one's security.
As for the question why can there not be a better method, the answer is simple. Hospalization is the best method.


Suicidal people should not be isolated

My patients quotes my source and says that emotional stress is also a cause of suicide. That is true and I have stated it repeatedly in round 2. My opponent seems to see a problem here because facilities cannot "bring back a loved one". No, they can't. No method can. But those facilities are designed to help patients cope with such stress - that is the purpose of these facilities and they consider that goal to be of the highest importance.

My opponent continues by stating the fact that some "still kill themselves or don't show progress" as an argument against hospitalization in medical facilities. So, my opponent seems to believe this method is unappropriate because it doesn't work for all patients. I must point out that no method can be universally successful, but this is currently the best method available, and that is why it is in use. He again repeats his point about patients having no electronics, which I have already addressed.


He then quotes the following:

"Patients with a plan, access to lethal means, recent social stressors and symptoms suggestive of a psychiatric disorder should be hospitalized immediately."

My opponent then states that this refers to people already in facilities. I regret to say my opponent misunderstood the quoted statement. This statement means thart people with a suicide plan (suicidal people) and symptoms of psychiaric disorders / influences of social stressors should be hospitalized. This is very clearly stated - "should be hospitalized". If they "should be hospitalized" it means they are not already. I know what I've just stated is a matter of semantics, but it needed to be made clear. Since they are not already hospitalized, it is safe to say that a facility did not cause their emotional distress.

He then addresses my rebuttal concerning suicide watch, saying that patients with mere thoughts of suicide are sent to facilities, and asks how does one determine the extent of their problem. I shall answer by stating that once a problem reaches/exceeds a certain point (serious suicide plan etc., which we are talking about in this debate), hospitalization is the main option and the first phase of treatment. Then, depending on the progress of treatment, they can either remain in the facility or be prescribed other methods, but hospitalization is the first and main option, and I've repeatedly shown why that is so.


Now that I've offered my rebuttal, I shall defend my arguments.

My opponent attacks my argument about insanity and severe disorders. He offers a link saying most people who commit suicide aren't crazy. I must point out a few things here.
Firstly, I've shown how suicidal people fall into the definition of "insane", which my opponent hasn't tried to deny nor can it be denied. No, not all people who commit suicide are psychotic, but they DO fall under the definition of insane and suicidality also does, by extension.
My opponent also states that suicidal people can reason. That is not correct. They believe they can reason, but due to their disorders, distress etc., their reasoning is distorted, which in the end leads to them being suicidal. And since my opponent stated that another reason why they do not fall under the classification of "insane" is that insane people cannot reason while those who are suicidal supposedly can, this only serves to further prove how those people indeed fall into that classification. As for the link, it states that those people are mostly not "crazy". However, if "crazy" refers to the medical definition of insane, then this statement is wrong (this also reveals a problem because the author didn't specaify what he/she meant by "crazy") The link also states how those people are often depressed, but it doesn't mean they have severe mental illness. This is contradictory - depression that leads to people being suicidal is a severe mental disorders and is treated like any other illness.

My opponent concludes by saying how insane people are not placed in same institutions as suicidal people. That once again depends on what one means by "insane". No, schizophrenic people are not placed in the same insitutions as suicidal people. But they both fall into the medical definition of "insane". Thus, what facilities they are placed in is not relevant. Both types of facilities serve to correct behavioral patterns that are "violations of societal norms, including a person becoming a danger to themselves or others", as the definition clearly states.
His final sentence is that suicidal people should be helped differently, but he again fails to name one single method better than hospitalization. He only mentions suicide watch which I've addressed, explaining how hospitalization is the first stage of treatment.

I must also point out that my opponent failed to address my argument about how medical institutions offer the best care for patients, and it was left untouched.


After this long rebuttal and defence of con's arguments, back to my opponent.
Debate Round No. 3
Jhate

Pro

Jhate forfeited this round.
zgb1997

Con

Since my opponent unexpectedly forfeited his round 4, I shall proceed to make my concluding statement without giving a rebuttal.

This whole debate was led around some very important questions, which are as follows:

a) Can suicidal people be helped in a way other than hospitalization?
b) Are people treated improperly in institutions, that is, are they needlessly isolated
c) Can suicidal people be classified as insane?

There were a few other points, such as that people can still kill themselves in hospitals (pro) or that hospitals have the best available equipment (con), but those were only mentioned in but a few words and, in con's opinion, hold no great relevance as to the outcome of this debate.

As for the three most important questions, I shall go one by one and explain why you, the voters, should vote con in this debate.

a) Can suicidal people be helped in a way other than hospitalization?

During this debate, pro argued that there are other ways, such as suicide watch, but failed to prove how it could be effective and how it could effectively replace hospitalization. On the other hand, con managed to prove that hospitalization is the first step in treatment and that, in this debate, we are talking about cases severe enough to be hospitized. The only answer from pro was a single statement that originated from pro misunderstanding the source offered by con. In the end, pro didn't prove why hospitalization shouldn't be the first step and why that is so, thus the answer to this question is no and the discussion concerning it goes to the con side.

b) Are people treated improperly in institutions, that is, are they needlessly isolated?

The discussion about this question was based on pro claiming isolation is too strict and needless on one side, and con claiming it is necessary on the other side. Pro argued that those people are isolated and put "in jail" to which con counters by explaining that isolation is necessary for the staff to be able to perform evaulation and monitoring, and that those people are all but "in jail" due to supervision. Pro then tries to prove how those people feel hopeless and one, while con explains how counselling is obligatory for that exact reason. While pro only argued that isolation is a bad experience, which is true, con proved why it is necessary. Pro's points about people being "in jail" were completely illogical and refuted by con, and that is why this the outcome of the discussion about this question also goes to con's side.

c) Can suicidal people be classified as insane?

The discuson about this question was very simple. After con claimed they indeed can according to the medical definition of insane, pro replied by citing a source which neither explained what its author meant by "crazy" or negated the definitiong provided by con. Thus, con proved that suicidal people can indeed be classified as insane and thoroughly explained why, pulling this question over to the con side as well.


After this closing statement, I believe I have shown why con has managed to win this debate and I hope the voters will see things the same.

Vote con!
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Jhate 4 years ago
Jhate
Couldint access my account for the last few months so i gave up. Sorry i did not finish it
Posted by zgb1997 4 years ago
zgb1997
I have noticed that I have accidentaly writted "My patients quotes" instead of "My opponent quotes" in the part concerning the source I have offered. I sincerely apologise for this lapsus calami, but it was very late where I live when I wrote my rebuttal
Apologies once again, it should say "my opponent quotes".
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