The Instigator
Johnicle
Pro (for)
Losing
30 Points
The Contender
brittwaller
Con (against)
Winning
43 Points

Perfection (in some aspect of life) of an individual is achievable.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/19/2008 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,442 times Debate No: 4096
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (15)

 

Johnicle

Pro

Let me give some examples to start things off:

1) Kid spells the word dog correctly. He is perfect in spelling the word dog.

2) Someone is nice one day and a jerk another day. He is perfect in being imperfect.

3) The sun rises and falls. It is perfect for bringing light and heat for that day.

Analysis: As in the individual (which is in the topic of debate), it is meant to show as a thing or person. Any external acts are not a part of the individual. So if the sun rose and fell, it would be irrelevant if there were clouds because the individual did it's job. Also, there is a meaning of the act in the status quo. In other words, future and past acts are irrelevant. Only perfection AT THAT TIME is what is important.

I reserve the right to clarify, add to the list, and extend all of my arguments in rounds to come.

Thanks!
brittwaller

Con

Thank you to Johnicle for posting. May it be a good one!

Of course:

per�fect [adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt]
–adjective 1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.
2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.
3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.
4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime.
5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.
6. thorough; complete; utter: perfect strangers.
7. pure or unmixed: perfect yellow.
8. unqualified; absolute: He has perfect control over his followers.
9. expert; accomplished; proficient.
10. unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree: He made a perfect fool of himself.
11. Botany. a. having all parts or members present.
b. monoclinous.

12. Grammar. a. noting an action or state brought to a close prior to some temporal point of reference, in contrast to imperfect or incomplete action.
b. designating a tense or other verb formation or construction with such meaning.

13. Music. a. applied to the consonances of unison, octave, and fifth, as distinguished from those of the third and sixth, which are called imperfect.
b. applied to the intervals, harmonic or melodic, of an octave, fifth, and fourth in their normal form, as opposed to augmented and diminished.

14. Mathematics. (of a set) equal to its set of accumulation points.
15. Obsolete. assured or certain.
–noun Grammar. 16. the perfect tense.
17. a verb form or construction in the perfect tense. Compare future perfect, pluperfect, present perfect.
–verb (used with object) 18. to bring to completion; finish.
19. to bring to perfection; make flawless or faultless.
20. to bring nearer to perfection; improve.
21. to make fully skilled.
22. Printing. to print the reverse of (a printed sheet).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1250–1300; < L perfectus, ptp. of perficere to finish, bring to completion (per- per- + -fec-, comb. form of facere to do1 + -tus ptp. suffix); r. ME parfit < OF < L as above]

—Related forms
per�fect�ed�ly, adverb
per�fect�er, noun
per�fect�ness, noun

—Synonyms 1, 2. See complete. 4. unblemished; faultless.
—Usage note A few usage guides still object to the use of comparison words such as more, most, nearly, almost, and rather with perfect on the grounds that perfect describes an absolute, yes-or-no condition that cannot logically be said to exist in varying degrees. The English language has never agreed to this limitation. Since its earliest use in the 13th century, perfect has, like almost all adjectives, been compared, first in the now obsolete forms perfecter and perfectest, and more recently with more, most, and similar comparison words: the most perfect arrangement of color and line imaginable. Perfect is compared in most of its general senses in all varieties of speech and writing. After all, one of the objectives of the writers of the U.S. Constitution was "to form a more perfect union." See also complete, unique.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, � Random House, Inc. 2006.

http://dictionary.reference.com...

I assume my opponent is familiar with the full definition, etc., and agrees the above definition is correct. I take it that we are not discussing grammar, botany, or mathematics. This was primarily for the reference of the reader.

While there may not be anything wrong with your argument technically, I do have some qualms, particularly with your usage of the word "perfect." First and foremost, I put forward that there is an individual and therefore subjective judgement required in labeling a person, act, or other thing "perfect." Second, "perfection" has certain connotations that, I will be arguing, make it transcendentally ideal - something to be pursued continuously but never quite attained - similar to, say, objectivity in respect to journalism, or honesty in respect to politics.

As far as your examples so far are concerned, you are not technically wrong (except for (3)), but use trivialities and extremes to prove your point.

1- Why not just stop at "Kid spells the word dog correctly"? The kid is simply correct. I see no justification in qualifying such a triviality with "perfect."

2- Same thing. The meaning of this usage in real life can only amount to a joke. Perhaps it would even be more perfect to say "Someone is nice one day and a jerk another day. He is bi-polar." And as *every person* is imperfect and the same thing could be said about them (in your original statement), it is arguably an incorrect usage of "perfect" in-itself: this would be similar to every human that has ever existed or will exist having had blond hair - we would not qualify "hair" with "blond" because everyone is the same anyway. Concerning both examples (1) and (2), I suppose I am asking "What is the point?" If this is the full depth of your argument, even if you were correct, then it will make for a weak debate I fear.

3- This example stretches the bounds of the subjectivity of the use of "perfect." Every person will have a separate judgement on this one. You are definitely wrong for the majority of the existence of planetary polar regions. I challenge your criteria that "Any external acts are not a part of the individual. So if the sun rose and fell, it would be irrelevant if there were clouds because the individual did it's job." External acts can be excluded, for a moment perhaps, but not external judgements - for if you can judge this to be perfect, can I not judge it to be too hot if I am in the middle of the desert and be equally correct in my assessment? A judgement is a mental act, so you cannot really even be correct that external acts must be excluded. I challenge the second part, as well: the existence of clouds and other factors *must* be permitted into our judgement of this instance, as you said "[The sun] is perfect for bringing light and heat for that day" and not "The sun rises and falls perfectly," which would also be incorrect in that the sun does not really "rise" or "fall" at all. I further challenge that "future and past acts are irrelevant." The relevance of future and past acts is implicit in the usage of "perfect," as noted above.

I reserve the right to reverse, augment, or in any way modify, without consequence, any arguments here-to-fore made.

Back to you, Johnicle.

Britt
Debate Round No. 1
Johnicle

Pro

The beginning definitions are numerous and un-applied. Therefore, I really don't care about them. I simply claim the idea of perfect as without error… the common definition if you will…

1) What my opponent seems to be overseeing in the debate are the words, "in some aspect of life"… therefore, you have to see that in the aspect of spelling the word dog, the human was perfect. You admit that he was correct, but on top of that he was also perfect in spelling the word dog. I have never spelt the word dog incorrectly and therefore I am perfect in spelling the word "dog"…

2) I am going to accept the reserved right of extending my argument. Same person except I am changing what is perfect. That person is perfect in being a human (or at least an example of the average human)… You talk about everyone having imperfection… well of course, they are perfect in imperfection (or being a human)…

3) Within my opponent's last speech, he basically said that judgment determines perfection. HOWEVER, you have to see that this is not true. Perfection can be discovered by humans, but not determined. It's like if a dumb human thought that dog was spelt differently. Just because he thought it was spelt differently doesn't mean that it actually is. It's the same ordeal with the man in the desert. He doesn't determine if the sun is perfect or not… The truth of the matter is that he is hot and may not like the sun at that time, but if it weren't for the sun he would have been dead by the extremely cold temperature that is the lack of heat. The sun may not have "risen", but it was perfect in keeping all of us alive in that day regardless of if it goes away tomorrow or not. You CAN be perfect in a certain time frame and fail in another time frame but the question is if you were ever perfect in something sometime (in some aspect of life)…

I'll offer a fourth way for fun…

4) God is perfect… Whether you believe that God exists or not he is still perfect. If you do believe then the perfection is inevitable but if you don't believe then he is perfect in not existing. But once again, humans can only discover perfection (some discover some don't) but we can NOT determine it…

In the end, I have discovered 4 places where perfection exists. Therefore I urge you to vote PRO!

Thank you… back to you brittwaller!
brittwaller

Con

brittwaller forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Johnicle

Pro

Huh… so it seems my opponent was perfect in not giving his second speech of this debate. Therefore, I ask the voters to flow through all of my last speeches arguments including the subjective view of the resolution. My opponent has not proven that we need to be objective when looking at the resolution and there fore we can say that someone spelt the word dog correctly and they WERE perfect in doing so… Even if you think for some reason that you have to be objective, you could STILL see that the person could have spelt the word dog right for their entire life. Furthermore you can see that God either exists or he doesn't (I won't determine any one belief) and he is perfect in doing EITHER one of those. Also flow through the argument that perfection can only be discovered by humans and not determined. Therefore, I do not have to determine if God is perfect (either way), all I have to do is say that either way, there is perfection that is achieved.

In the end, perfection has been discovered to be achievable in some aspect of life… so please vote PRO!

Thanks for this good debate!
brittwaller

Con

My apologies to my opponent and the reader for missing the second round - I was indisposed. Hold this against me to your discretion, or better yet, don't:)

I'll provide two separate arguments - one to answer my opponent's R2 from a point of view that does not include anything he said in R3, and another to rebut his R3 and close the debate. Once again, I rely on the voter to use discretion in either including or discarding one or both of these arguments.

-" The beginning definitions are numerous and un-applied. Therefore, I really don't care about them."

A curious move on your part: a debate that more-or-less hinges on definition and you "don't care." There is no "common" definition if you and I cannot agree on what it is we are talking about. You could have had your pick and moved from there - but you "don't care." Mmm, apathy... what a killer.

1)This whole point is a little far-fetched. "Correct" is sufficient; does the kid in your examples have low self-esteem or some other emotional problem? There is no justification for saying "the kid was perfect in spelling the word 'dog.'" Of course, the teacher could have said to your example "Spell the following on the chalkboard:'What up, dawg!'" In this case the kid would have been incorrect in his spelling. It is as needless for me to say, "The kid was imperfect in spelling the word 'dawg'" because it literally goes without saying.

2)Again, saying "He is but human" is an altogether more eloquent and less strained way of expressing the same thought. You did not answer my question, but as silence implies consent, I assume that this is the scope of your whole argument here - a trifling play on words. HIGH FIVE! My point from R1 still stands.

3)Fair enough. The man in the desert has now died from dehydration. You might say he "discovered" how well (not how perfectly) the sun provides our planet with light and heat. And then you create a critical error for your argument in this sentence: "Perfection can be discovered by humans, but not determined." So how is perfection determined, pray tell? Who else exists (to our knowledge) to make the *subjective judgement* that anything is or isn't perfect? Qualifying something as "perfect" IS a judgement. Perhaps I am wrong in my judgement of the situation, but that perfection is a judgement is self-evident.

4)Falling back on "god"? Without wasting too much space, let me quash this point. IF god existed, he would not necessarily be "perfect." This religion or that may throw around "perfect" in addition to "omniscient," etc, but what do they know? As every religion, and thus their various ideas of god, were created by imperfect humans, how can we "discover" anything beyond the respective canons? This point actually hurt you, as by your own logic (if you were correct) this perfect god would be imperfect at being imperfect. An asinine phrase, no? My thoughts exactly on your given examples.

R3 Response:

-"Therefore, I ask the voters to flow through all of my last speeches arguments including the subjective view of the resolution."

Yes, please do as my opponent requests.

-"My opponent has not proven that we need to be objective when looking at the resolution and there fore we can say that someone spelt the word dog correctly and they WERE perfect in doing so…"

Hmm, I have been implicitly arguing for the relevance and primacy of subjective judgement throughout the debate. Again, respect my opponent's wishes.

-"Furthermore you can see that God either exists or he doesn't (I won't determine any one belief) and he is perfect in doing EITHER one of those."

Existence precedes all: Saying that nothing (something that doesn't exist) is perfect at non-existence is not only silly, but also open to your devastating gap in logic: If this nothing is perfect at being nothing, it is equally imperfect at being something. This can extend over all of your points: the kid was imperfect at spelling "dog" incorrectly, the man is imperfect at being perfect, the sun is imperfect in not providing cold and dark.

Perfection within the individual, in some aspect of life, is not possible in any real sense.

Vote CON

Thanks to johnicle again.

Britt
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by flor 8 years ago
flor
A person does not have a definition, so they can never achieve something that is not there.
yay
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Brittwaller has gotten a sex change!!!

I almost voted CON simply because of his pic. :D
Posted by lastronin 8 years ago
lastronin
I have no patience for perfect people, so I didn't read all of the debates.
Posted by pune123 9 years ago
pune123
2 votes!!!! so sad and suprising?? plse grow up u all..
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Vote Placed by m93samman 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by mrbullfrog11 8 years ago
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