The Instigator
JMan1424
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
baconnelson
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Peter was the Rock upon which the Church was built.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/7/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 553 times Debate No: 79470
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
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JMan1424

Pro

Hello, I'll be doing this debate on whether or not the Church of Jesus Christ was built on Peter. Let me just say that no I'm not Catholic, but I'll be taking their position in this debate just to experiment with different views, and for the sake of a good argument. I'd hope that whoever accepts this debate is a Protestant, but anybody will do. Thanks and may the best argument win! :)

Alright my first piece of evidence is Mathew 16:18 which says "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." KJV

Go ahead and put down your rebuttals and I'll get back to you whenever I can.

Thanks!
baconnelson

Con

Matthew 16:18- "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
It isn't stated once claiming that Peter is the rock which the church was built on. He's talking to Peter about his faith and what he believes, and Peter bares testimony that he knows Christ is the son of God. Rock is referring to Christ. He is referring to what Peter had previously stated about him being the son of God, and is stating that he (Christ) is the foundation of the Gospel.
Debate Round No. 1
JMan1424

Pro

Was the rock upon which the Church of our Lord to be built Peter or merely Peter's confession?

Well my answer to this would have to be is it too far fetched to say both? The Early Christians unanimously agreed that the rock upon which the Church was built was BOTH the Confession and Person of the Blessed Apostle.

Letter of St. Clement to James- "Let it be known my lord that Simon Peter for the sake of the True Faith and the most sure foundation of this doctrine was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this reason by Jesus himself with his truthful mouth was named Peter." AD 221

Clementine Homilies AD 221- "Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome, For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm Rock, the foundation of the Church."

Origen- "See what The Lord said to Peter, that Great Foundation of the Church and solid Rock, upon which Christ founded the Church." Exodus V
- "Look upon Petef the most solid of rocks upon whom the Church was built" Homilies on Exodus 5:4
- "Upon Peter, as of the Earth the Church was founded." Epistle to Rome

Tertullian, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarb(disciple of John), and many others also confirm this.

Now I'd like to get into the verse itself and I'd better warn you to hold on because it's about to get a little deep :)

We know, based on the Bible and History, that Jesus spoke Aramiac and this sermon in Phillipi( Aramaic stronghold) would have been told to the crowd in Aramiac. The word Kephas( Peter) in Aramaic mean a large stone and the word for a small stone( Confession) was Evna, but Jesus never said this. The translation of the exact words Jesus spoke on that day would have been this. "And I say unto you that your are Kepha and upon this Kepha I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

As a quick grammatical sidenote, the word "this" can only refer to the preceding pronoun in the sentence which is "Peter."

Thanks
baconnelson

Con

In the passage that we are examining, Jesus says to Peter, "I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 16:18"19) When Jesus promises to entrust keys to Peter, part of the promise is that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [the church]." (The grammar of this sentence tells us that "it" means "the church" because "the church" is the closest referent and the Greek pronoun translated "it" .The idea of gates points directly at the keys required to open them. Jesus holds the keys of "the gates of hell," not Peter. Instead, to Peter are entrusted "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 16:19). Interest in the next world, of course, is plainly present in this latter expression. In addition, possession of these keys does not mean that the holder is a mere doorkeeper, a person who checks the identity of those entering and leaving. By being entrusted with keys, Peter stands as Jesus" fully authorized representative. This dimension appears in the expression "I will give." Moreover, these keys establish Peter"s authority over earthly church matters, a fact firmly present in Jesus" words "bind on earth" and "loose on earth." In a word, Jesus is handing to Peter the chief responsibility for leading his Church. But Peter does not carry this duty by himself. The keys will be held jointly among the Twelve, as Jesus later indicates: "Verily I say unto you [Twelve], Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 18:18). In a revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith in January 1841, the Lord confirms this observation: "[the] Twelve hold the keys to open up the authority of my kingdom upon the four corners of the earth" (Doctrine and Covenants 124:128; also John 20:23; Doctrine and Covenants 90:6; 112:16).
Debate Round No. 2
JMan1424

Pro

My opponent has brought up some great arguments, and I'll gladly discuss them, but first I need to point out that they've plagiarized from this website which makes it invalid.

http://www.byunewtestamentcommentary.com......

Anyway with that off my chest let me just point out that most of your statement, until Joseph Smith and Apostalic Authority, is an affirmation and support statement for the Catholic Churches belief.(aka what you said is what the Church says)

I'd also like to remind you that you've taken a detour from the topic of "Who is the rock?" and moved on to "What're the keys."

Despite this I can refute these claims with a couple verses...
1. In John 21:15-25 Jesus made Peter the Shepherd of the Church and told him to feed his Lambs and Sheep. The strange thing here is our Lord's distinction between the Lambs and Sheep which could be a reference to the Christians and Apostles whom he would feed or the Clery and the Lay people.
2. When the disciples argued about who was greatest Jesus then turned to Peter and said that Satan desired him(Since he was the top dog) and commanded him to STRENGTHEN his brethren.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but Joseph Smith has no authority in any of these Church/Christian matters since he denied The Lord's Divinity and left the Faith. Therfore he can not be cited as a source.

Thank you and I'll reply as soon as I can :)
baconnelson

Con

baconnelson forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
JMan1424

Pro

Well I hope that my opponent will be able to post in the next round, but if not then I'd just like to put down this quick quote from good old Martin Luther.

"Why are you searching heavenward in search of my keys? Do you not understand Jesus said 'I gave them to Peter. They are indeed the keys of Heaven, but they are not found in Heaven for I left them on Earth. Peter's mouth is my mouth, his tongue is my case, his keys are my keys. They are an office. They are a power, a command given by God through Christ to all of Christendom for the retaining and remitting of the sins of men.(Martin Luther 1530 after he was excommunicated)

Regardless of whether we're Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox we all have to admit that Peter is the rock, but the issue of his successors gets a little tougher to explain.
baconnelson

Con

baconnelson forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
JMan1424

Pro

Thanks to my opponent for this partial debate and don't forget to vote pro! :)
baconnelson

Con

baconnelson forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Julia5678 2 years ago
Julia5678
Peter Simon was not Rock. Because there is no Rock but The Lord!
" For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?" (2 Samuel 22:32)
Posted by JMan1424 2 years ago
JMan1424
Anyone else wanna debate me on the Primacy of Peter?
Posted by JMan1424 2 years ago
JMan1424
Sure thing
Posted by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
This is a very interesting debate. Let me know when it's over.
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