The Instigator
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Losing
28 Points
The Contender
I-am-a-panda
Pro (for)
Winning
29 Points

Phoenix Wright is a better lawyer than Miles Edgeworth

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Con Tied Pro
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/8/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 8,831 times Debate No: 9634
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (9)

 

Logical-Master

Con

Assuming you are willing to accept this challenge, I thank you for taking the time to debate.

In today's debate, I intend to prove beyond the notion of a doubt that the main protagonist of the Phoenix Wright series was not actually the best lawyer in the games.

For those not familiar with the series, you're free to check it out here: http://en.wikipedia.org...

I'll make my opening argument brief by listing the advantages Edgeworth has over Wright.

Experience: Edgeworth became a prosecutor at the age of 20 and had managed to have a flawless winning streak up until his first case against Phoenix. In the third game of the series, we find out that he travels across the world becoming familiar with at least 5 different legal systems as well as 5 different languages (not to mention that he mastered both).

Intelligence: He was considered a prodigy even before first entering the court room at a young age. And whenever in court, he manages to make his opponent look like a complete idiot in front of the Judge. In fact, during the final trial of Justice For All, he went up against Phoenix and had several opportunities to end the trial and get the defendant a guilty verdict, but insisted that the trial continue so that he could leave no doubts that his case was correct.

Skill: His mastery of the court room was so impressive, that he even managed take Phoenix's place in the 3rd game and act as the defense attorney during an extremely difficult trial for the defense. Not to mention that he went up against none other than Franzika Von Karma (who is also regarded as prodigy prosecutor) and easily managed to win without the help of a defense aid (which Phoenix has had to rely on in most of his cases just to keep from getting a guilty verdict). And there was not one point where his opponent reduced him to abnormally sweating. He kept his cool the entire time, despite that he had never acted as a defense attorney.

Clearly, Edgeworth is superior to Phoenix Wright. :D
I-am-a-panda

Pro

I thank my opponent for thsi debate, however

OBJECTION!

"Edgeworth became a prosecutor at the age of 20 and had managed to have a flawless winning streak up until his first case against Phoenix. In the third game of the series, we find out that he travels across the world becoming familiar with at least 5 different legal systems as well as 5 different languages (not to mention that he mastered both)."

--> Firstly, Edgeworth went on his travels AFTER the first game concluded [http://en.wikipedia.org...], when he lost his winning streak to Phoenix and realised Prosecutors and Defence Attorneys need to work together to discover the truth.

Secondly, it is crucial to note Edgeworth lost his first case to Phoenix Wright. Phoenix has never lost to Edgeworth. If this is the case, using worked examples, Phoenix is a better Lawyer than Edgeworth.

"He was considered a prodigy even before first entering the court room at a young age. And whenever in court, he manages to make his opponent look like a complete idiot in front of the Judge. In fact, during the final trial of Justice For All, he went up against Phoenix and had several opportunities to end the trial and get the defendant a guilty verdict, but insisted that the trial continue so that he could leave no doubts that his case was correct."

--> His unwillingness to end the trial once he can win shows a weakness in him - He has to be totally 100% right, even when he has essentially won. This led to his defeat at the hands of Phoenix Wright.

While Edgeworth may be a moral lawyer than Phoenix this aspect, it is important to note Phoenix is still a better lawyer overall.

"His mastery of the court room was so impressive, that he even managed take Phoenix's place in the 3rd game and act as the defense attorney during an extremely difficult trial for the defense. Not to mention that he went up against none other than Franzika Von Karma (who is also regarded as prodigy prosecutor) and easily managed to win without the help of a defense aid (which Phoenix has had to rely on in most of his cases just to keep from getting a guilty verdict). And there was not one point where his opponent reduced him to abnormally sweating. He kept his cool the entire time, despite that he had never acted as a defense attorney."

--> I will concede that Edgeworth won against Von Karma, however:

1) Phoenix Wright has also beaten Von Karma

2) I would like my opponent to point out any major differences in Prosecutors and Defence attorneys. They essentially have to attack and defend using logic.

3) As you have stated, Edgeworth is knowledgeable in varying legal systems, so it wouldn't be hard for him to adapt from the position of Defence attorney to prosecutor

The points I have given shall constitute my case for the first round.

Clearly, Phoenix Wright is superior to Edgworth :P!
Debate Round No. 1
Logical-Master

Con

RE: "Firstly, Edgeworth went on his travels AFTER the first game concluded [http://en.wikipedia.org......], when he lost his winning streak to Phoenix and realised Prosecutors and Defence Attorneys need to work together to discover the truth."

OBJECTION! This has no bearing on the current case, ladies and gentleman. We're discussing who is the better lawyer. Naturally, such a discussion encompasses all the games.

Furthermore, a quick read of the script here shall reveal the circumstances under which Phoenix "won" against Edgeworth: http://www.gamefaqs.com...

That's right; it wasn't Phoenix who saved the day. Rather, it was Mia Fey (Phoenix's mentor) for bringing up evidence which she possessed. If she hadn't shown up when she did, Phoenix would have surely suffered a crushing defeat. One must also note that in their second case against one another, Edgeworth actually HELPED Phoenix by cross examining his own witness (who Phoenix couldn't get to crack). Thus, one can argue that Phoenix has never TRULY beaten Edgeworth.

RE: "Secondly, it is crucial to note Edgeworth lost his first case to Phoenix Wright. Phoenix has never lost to Edgeworth. If this is the case, using worked examples, Phoenix is a better Lawyer than Edgeworth."

On the contrary. Phoenix lost to Edgeworth in the canon ending of the game Justice For All: http://en.wikipedia.org...

Not to mention that the second vid indicates that Edgeworth could have beaten Phoenix and ended the trial at any time, but chose not to merely so that the whole truth behind the case could come out. Phoenix himself acknowledges
this in 3:15 - 3:33

RE: "His unwillingness to end the trial once he can win shows a weakness in him - He has to be totally 100% right, even when he has essentially won. This led to his defeat at the hands of Phoenix Wright."

Huh? Phoenix LOST that case. See third vid. If anything, CON has established that Phoenix is even weaker, if we are to agree to his reasoning.

RE: "Phoenix Wright has also beaten Von Karma"

ME: http://i153.photobucket.com...

Edgeworth winning is indeed more impressive at it was his FIRST time going about it from the position of a defense lawyer.

RE: " I would like my opponent to point out any major differences in Prosecutors and Defence attorneys. They essentially have to attack and defend using logic.

Yes, just as both a wrestler and a boxer are essentially both attempting to physically overwhelm their opponents in a relatively small ring. In spite of what my opponent says, the fact of the matter is that the two jobs are fundamentally different as both have a different goals (getting someone declared innocent/guilty) and require successful testing in order to gain different badges in receiving either title. If both jobs were in fact identical in the Phoenix Wright universe, there'd be no reason to pass different tests needed to gain a defense lawyer badge or a prosecutor badge or the two careers would not be as separated from one another. Clearly, different skills are required to be considered professional at getting an acquittal or a guilty verdict.

RE: 3) As you have stated, Edgeworth is knowledgeable in varying legal systems, so it wouldn't be hard for him to adapt from the position of Defence attorney to prosecutor

Perhaps, but that's a non-issue. It doesn't matter where he got these different skills; the fact of the matter is that he has them, hence reason to consider him as being a better lawyer than Mr. Wright.

ME: http://i153.photobucket.com...
I-am-a-panda

Pro

I apologize to LM but I am of insufficient time to respond to him as of yet. I have the ability to respond to him in the third round so my sincerest apologies.
Debate Round No. 2
Logical-Master

Con

With this being the final round, I'm gonna wrap up a few things in terms of what you ought to vote off of:

1) The final case in the second Phoenix Wright game most clearly demonstrates Edgeworth's superiority over Mr. Wright. He could have won that trial at any time, yet chose to prolong it to get to the truth. Even in the end, Phoenix canonically lost the trial.

2) The only times Phoenix has successfully gotten a "not guilty" against Edgeworth has been due to outside factors that have nothing to do with Phoenix's own skill (i.e. Maya showing to effectively finish the trial, Edgeworth cross-examining his own witness right when the judge was about to end the trial in Edgeworth's favor, etc). Luck/outside help does not equal skill.

Keeping these points in mind, there may be reason to suspect that Phoenix is simply a better character or has a better heart than Edgeworth. However, a better lawyer? Not a chance as the games clearly indicate otherwise.

ME: http://i153.photobucket.com...
I-am-a-panda

Pro

I thank LM for this debate.

OBJECTION! http://i223.photobucket.com...

"The final case in the second Phoenix Wright game most clearly demonstrates Edgeworth's superiority over Mr. Wright. He could have won that trial at any time, yet chose to prolong it to get to the truth. Even in the end, Phoenix canonically lost the trial."

HOLD IT!

You state Edgeworth is superior to Phoenix, however, in the first game, Phoenix squares of against Edgeworth twice, and wins both times. Phoenix is currently 2-0. In the second game, Edgeworth wins in the canonic ending. Now it's 2-1. In the third game, Phoenix does not face Edgeworth, therefore, Phoenix has beaten Edgweworth twice, but Edgeworth has only beaten Phoenix once. So, when they go head to head, Phoenix is ultimately prevalent,

TAKE THAT!

http://i153.photobucket.com...

"The only times Phoenix has successfully gotten a "not guilty" against Edgeworth has been due to outside factors that have nothing to do with Phoenix's own skill (i.e. Maya showing to effectively finish the trial, Edgeworth cross-examining his own witness right when the judge was about to end the trial in Edgeworth's favor, etc). Luck/outside help does not equal skill."

HOLD IT!

While this may be true, Phoenix displays his skills in other trials. In the fist trial of Apollo Justice, he effectively wins he trial for Apollo. He has also lost only 1 case, and Egdeworth has lost 2. However, when we factor in the fact you say Mia Fey helped him, that still only means he "lost" 2 cases, and that puts him on equal ground with Edgeworth, which still negates the resolution.

TAKE THAT!
Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
Blazzered
http://i437.photobucket.com...
"MMMMhmmmm........I have eyebrows!"
- RussMoney
Posted by Logical-Master 1 year ago
Logical-Master
Lets be honest. All of Phoenix's have always boiled down to a LOT of luck (some unforeseen circumstance giving him the advantage he needs to win). In real life, he would've lost all his cases. Edgeworth is just plain better, but Phoenix has better luck and more heart.
Posted by ArcX 2 years ago
ArcX
I disagree with the claim that Miles Edgeworth was the superior Lawyer. Edgeworth had to forge evidence in order to get his guilty verdict and was trained with the methods of the man who let his father's murderer get away.

Edgeworth may have been better at rational debate, but Wright was better at actually solving the cases. He was able to see what everyone else missed. True, he may not have been as experienced as Edgeworth was, but he was a genius as Mia Faye credited him on. Phoenix Wright also defended Miles Edgeworth in court and overturned a guilty verdict.

Let's also bring up the fact that Phoenix Wright's career began with corruption of the law system working biasedly against him. Miles Edgeworth's career was about him being the one doing the corruption. Phoenix Wright had all of the cards stacked against him but won in circumstances when most others would've easily lost.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
And yeah, I'd like to think Edgeward would have checked those forged documents in advance. Heck, Edgeworth probably would have even known who ordered who to make the forged evidence in the first place.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Next month? Sweet
Posted by spinnerclotho 7 years ago
spinnerclotho
In the 4th game, Phoenix was conned into presenting false evidence, something that Miles Edgeworth would NEVER do, being a stickler about the rules for evidence and a perfectionist. I think that alone makes Edgeworth a better lawyer than Phoenix.

Edgeworth game comes out in the USA next month! :D
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Indeed, Miles is awesome. Interestingly enough though, I do wonder how both himand Van Karma pretty much got away with being associated with forged evidence in the past, yet Phoenix loses his job in an instant. :(
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
lulz. Seems I've upset someone . . . again. :)
Posted by numa 7 years ago
numa
miles ftw
Posted by I-am-a-panda 7 years ago
I-am-a-panda
9 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Vote Placed by I-am-a-panda 7 years ago
I-am-a-panda
Logical-MasterI-am-a-pandaTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Vote Placed by spinnerclotho 7 years ago
spinnerclotho
Logical-MasterI-am-a-pandaTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Vote Placed by Nails 7 years ago
Nails
Logical-MasterI-am-a-pandaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by numa 7 years ago
numa
Logical-MasterI-am-a-pandaTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by guitr_freek 7 years ago
guitr_freek
Logical-MasterI-am-a-pandaTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by wonderwoman 7 years ago
wonderwoman
Logical-MasterI-am-a-pandaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:34 
Vote Placed by Clockwork 7 years ago
Clockwork
Logical-MasterI-am-a-pandaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Vote Placed by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Logical-MasterI-am-a-pandaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Vi_Veri 7 years ago
Vi_Veri
Logical-MasterI-am-a-pandaTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07