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Poseidon and Hephaestus were originally the same god

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/11/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 6,529 times Debate No: 31156
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
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I will be arguing that Poseidon and Hephaestus were originally the same god

1.) No ad hominem attacks
2.) 1st round acceptance only


This sounds like a strange but interesting statement.
I'm eager to hear my opponent's arguments and I'll do my best to counter them.
Debate Round No. 1


Etymology of the Names

The Greek religion has its roots in Mycenaean mythology, and Poseidon was originally the head of the Mycenaean Pantheon. The Mycenaeans used Linear B script which descends from Cretan hieroglyphs.

Poseidon’s name in Linear B script was Po-se-da-o-ne. Po-se means “Lord”, “master”, or “Husband”, while Da-o-ne means “the Earth”. Poseidon’s name was literally “Lord of the Earth”.
Poseidon’s counterpart in Sumerian Mythology was Enki, whose name also means “Lord of the Earth”; En means “Lord”, and Ki means “Earth”. Enki was also the husband of the Earth.

Enki was the God of water, crafts, intelligence, and creation. He lived in an aquifer called the abzu, and he was the older brother to Enlil, Lord of the Wind. Enlil was the god of storms, and he lived in the e-kur, or mountain house. Likewise Poseidon lived in the Ocean, and was the older brother of Zeus, who was the god of thunder, and lived on Mount Olympus.

In the Mycenaean religion Hephaestus was known as A-pi-i-ti-jo. P-i-ti-jo is the Linear B name for the Egyptian God “Ptah”. Ptah was the Egyptian god of crafts, intelligence, and creation. Ptah was the Egyptian counterpart of the Sumerian God Enki.

The Earth Shaker

Poseidon was originally a Cretan God, adopted by the Mycenaean civilization when power shifted from the Minoans to the Mycenaeans. The Cretans called Poseidon the Earth Shaker, and believed he was responsible for earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Volcanic eruptions were later attributed to Hephaestus, the god of fire. The reason horses are associated with Poseidon was because it was believed that Earthquakes were caused by running horses.

The Cretans were a seafaring people, who traded with the Egyptians. The Cretans used a writing script called “Linear A”, which was the precursor to the Linear B script used by the Mycenaeans in Peloponnesia. When power shifted from the Cretans to the Mycenaeans, the Mycenaeans adopted Poseidon as their chief god, and used tails of the Egyptian god Ptah to create the myth of Hephaestus.

PIE religion

The myth of Poseidon derives from the Proto-Indo-European religion. In the PIE religion Poseidon was known as *H2epom Nepots. *H2epom Nepots means “closely related to water”, or possibly “the water dweller”. It is from the name *H2epom Nepots that Poseidon’s Latin name, Neptūnus, is derived. *H2epom Nepots also influenced the Sumerian myth of Enki, and the Vedic myth of Apam Napat. Most of what we know of *H2epom Nepots comes from the myth of Apam Napat.

*H2epom Nepots was the God of water, and was considered the creator of mankind (like Enki). *H2epom Nepots was closely associated with a mythical fire-water. Sometimes this fire-water was depicted as volcanic magma, and other times it was depicted as salt-water. The Vedic god of fresh water, Apam Napat was often depicted as fire arising from water.

At the end of the Vedic hymn to Apam Napat, he is invoked as Agni, which in Sanskrit means “fire”. Agni was the God of Fire, and the son of Dyaus Pitar, the Sky father; Agni’s brother was Indra, the God of storms. Likewise *H2epom Nepots was the son of *Dyēus Ph2tēr, the sky father, and the brother of *perkwunos, the god of storms. Agni’s vehicle was a ram, and similarly Enki’s ship was called “the Ram of the Abzu”
The myths of Poseidon and Hephaestus both derive from the myth of *H2epom Nepots. Poseidon is the water aspect of *H2epom Nepots, and Hephaestus is the fire aspect of *H2epom Nepots.


Hephaestus, the Greek god of fire and patron god of craftsmen, was a Greek adaptation of the Egyptian God Ptah. Ptah, the Egyptian creator god, and patron god of craftsmen, was an Egyptian adaptation of the Sumerian God Enki. Enki, the Sumerian creator god, and patron god of craftsmen, was a Sumerian adaptation of the Proto-Indo-European creator god *H2epom Nepots. *H2epom Nepots was both a fire god and a water god.

The name of the Greek water god, Poseidon, shares a common origin with the Sumerian water god, Enki. The Latin name for Poseidon was Neptūnus, which comes from the Proto-Indo-European name *H2epom Nepots. The Proto-Indo-European myth of *H2epom Nepots directly influenced both the Greco-Roman myth of Poseidon, and the Sumerian myth of Enki.



I want to thank my opponent for his well-constructed arguments. I'm impressed by the large amount of evidence. Nevertheless, I would like to cast my doubt about this matter.

Allow me to summarize my opponent's points. Basically they are like these
  1. Poseidon is an adaption of Enki
  2. Hephaestus is an adaption of Ptah
  3. Ptah is also an adaption of Enki
  • Therefore, Poseidon and Hephaestus were originally the same god.

In order to reach his conclusion, my opponent needs to prove all the above three conditions to be true.
I, on the other hand, only need to refute one of them.

So, my question is:
Is Ptah is the Egyptian adaptation of the Sumerian God Enki?

According to my opponent, both Enki and Ptah are the "god of crafts, intelligence, and creation".
Yes, it's true that both of them create things and are the embodiment of intelligence. However, those are the common attributes expected from the chief gods of their respective pantheon. If we look at them more closely we will see that they are not the same.

In the Egyptian mythology, Ptah
is the oldest god who existed before everything and the world was created by his thought. He built "the framework of the universe" and "created the great metal plate that was the floor of heaven and the roof of the sky" [1]. It's said that "gods are born, towns are founded, and order is maintained" thanks to Ptah [2]. In the Sumerian mythology, it's not clear how the world was created. There is not a single myth that explains who is the one/are the ones responsible for the creation of the world [3]. The only creation associated with Enki is how he created the first human from clay according to the story "Enki and Ninmah" [4] (however in another story, "The song of the hoe", the one who created mankind is Enlil, Enki's brother [5]). Therefore, Ptah and Enki are clearly not in the same par even though they are both called "the god of creation".

In the story "Enki and the World Order", Enki is said to
fill the Tigris and Euphrates with water, arrange rain, bestow the cultivated fields with barley [6]. For a supposed patron of crafts, Enki is arguably closer to agriculture, unlike Ptah who is associated with craftsmanship, architect, metalworking and shipbuilding.

In conclusion, Ptah is too different to be an adaption of Enki.
As the result, Poseidon and Hephaestus do not have the same origin.


Debate Round No. 2


Dropped arguments

By dropping my arguments about Poseidon’s relationship to Enki, Agni, and *H2epom Nepots, Con has ceded these points. Con has dropped the arguments about Agni and *H2epom Nepots all together, so the connection between Poseidon and Hephaestus through Agni and *H2epom Nepots is assumed true.

Enki as the creator God
The names “Enki” and “Enlil” are more like titles. Enki’s actual name is Nudimmud. Nu means “he”, Dim2 means “to create”, and Mud means “to give birth”; Nudimmud roughly means “he created”. Enlil’s name is Nunamnir, Nu means “he”, and Nam-nir means “all powerful”, or “all mighty”. Nunamnir means “he is all mighty”. Enki was the creator God, and Enlil was the head of the Pantheon. Enlil, and Enki were the children of An, and Enlil served as a direct link to An. Enlil was portrayed more as an adversary of Humanity, whereas Enki was portrayed as the creator and the protector of humanity.

Enki as the Patron God of Craftsmen

Enki was the patron God of Craftsmen. Enki controlled the Mes, which were a set of decrees, and information about technology necessary for civilization. Some of the Mes included crafts such as construction, basket weaving, leatherworking, and metalworking. In the poem “Enki and the World order”, lines 84-85 reads “Praise be to Enki, the much-praised lord who controls all the arts and crafts, who makes decisions!” Enki and the World order described Enki as short of a foreman, or overseer, who was responsible for planning and directing the construction of civilization.

Enki and Ptah

In the myth of Enki and Ninmah, Enki rose from the primordial waters of the Abzu, in order to plan, instruct, and oversee the creation of man. In the Ptah creation myth, Ptah rose from the Primordial waters of Nun, in order to create the world. Both Nun, and the Abzu were primordial waters. The word "abyss" is derived from the Sumerian word "abzu"; "abzu" and "nun" were both considered watery abysses, from which life was created.

Like Enki, Ptah was the god of patron of the artists and craftsmen. Ptah represented the ability of artists and craftmen to envision their finish work, and then bring it into being; Enki was depicted similarly, as the world was created based on Enki’s plans and designs. Enki decreed the fates of all things, and had perfect foresight.
In the Ptah creation myth, Ptah first envisioned the world with his heart, than created the world with his tongue. Likewise, Enki first envisioned the creation of man, than instructed other deities on how to create man.

Enki as an Agricultural God

Con claims that Enki is an agricultural God, not a god of crafts. This cannot be further from the truth. Enki is associated with many aspects of human society. Enki controlled the Mes, which meant he had many roles. Enki was primarily associated with crafts, art, intelligence, water, and creation. As the controller of the Mes, Enki was responsible for determining the destiny of all things. Enki was associated with ground water, while Enlil was associated with rain. Agriculture was a major aspect of life in ancient Sumeria, which is why many gods were associated with agriculture. Enlil was also associated with agriculture, because he created the hoe, and was responsible for rain. Enki was associated with agriculture, because of his connection with the ground water, and irrigation. Enki’s connection with agricultural was more of a secondary aspect, with crafts, water, and creation being his 3 primary roles.

Ptah origins

Different regions of Ancient Egypt had different creation myths. The Ptah creation myth comes from Memphis in Lower (northern) Egypt. Lower Egyptian culture was influenced by the Ancient Sumerians, and other Mesopotamians, whereas Upper Egyptian culture was influenced by the Nubians. When the two kingdoms united, the cultures became one, which resulted in the Egyptian mythology more widely associated with Egypt.

Since Ptah originated in Lower Egypt, it is safe to assume the Myth of Ptah was inspired by an earlier Mesopotamian myth.



Dropped arguments
I have no argument against the relationship of Poseidon, Enki, Agni, and *H2epom Nepots
The connection between Hephaetus and *H2epom Nepots, on the other hand, is coming from the connection between Ptah and Enki. So if I can break the latter, the former will be broken as well.

Enki as the creator God
My opponent didn’t refute my point that Enki didn’t create the world like Ptah but he only created human.
In his own source, it’s said that Ptah created the heaven and the earth while Khnum, another Egyptian god, created the first humans on his potter’s wheel with silt [1], which is extremely similar to how Enki created men from clay.

Enki, a Crafts God or a Agricultural God
My opponent said that Enki is associated with many aspects of human society. Crafts is one of them. Agriculture is also one of them. So why should crafts be the major aspect and agriculture secondary?
I would argue that agriculture is a major aspect of Enki. He is not only related to irrigation but he made flood and rain as well (according to "Enki and the World Order" [2]). Creation, water and agriculture are three relating concepts. Because they are all related to life. Enki created human and he brought life by adding water to the land, allowing the human to get food by themselves.

Enki and Ptah
Firstly, it’s Atum, not Ptah, who rose from Nun to create the world [3]. And that's in the Heliopolitan creation myth, not the Memphite myth where Ptah came from. Again, in my opponent's own source, it's said that Ptah created Nun.
Secondly, I couldn't find in my opponent’s source where it implied that “Ptah represented the ability of artists and craftmen to envision their finish work, and then bring it into being” or “Enki decreed the fates of all things, and had perfect foresight”. Other than that, do we have to agree that Ptah and Enki are similar just because they both did some planning before doing something? Isn’t that what anyone with common sense would do?

Ptah origins
Lower Egyptian culture was influenced by the Ancient Sumerians doesn’t mean that a particular god in the Egyptian myth must come from the Sumerian myth. So it’s not “safe to assume the Myth of Ptah was inspired by an earlier Mesopotamian myth”.

Debate Round No. 3


Restating the connection

Hephaetus does not rely on his connection to Enki to be associated with *H2epom Nepots. Hephaetus was the god of fire, just as the Vedic god of fire was Agni. Apam Napat was one of the names of Agni. The Greek god Hephaetus and the Proto-Indo-European god *H2epom Nepots are both associated with volcanism.

This entire argument was dropped in round 1.

Egyptian Creation myth

Egyptian creation myths differed from region to region. My appointment claims that because Khnum, the upper Egyptian creator god from Aswan, created man from mud, and Ptah, the lower Egyptian creator god from Memphis, created man from speech, that Enki is somehow not related to Ptah. These Egyptian creation myths arose independently of one another around local cults. The myths of Upper Egypt were influenced by Nubians while the myths of Lower Egypt were influenced by Mesopotamians. Ptah was the local interpretation of Enki by the Egyptians in Memphis. The myth of Khnum originated from the Island of Elephantine. The Island of Elephantine was originally Nubian.

Enki as the creator God

Once again, Ptah created the world the same way Enki created mankind. Ptah created the world through speech, and Enki created mankind through speech. Enki did not actively create man from mud, but rather he instructed lower deities on what to do. Ptah brought things into existence by naming them. In the story of Enki and Ninhursag, it is revealed that Enki decreased the fates of all things by naming them. In the myth of Enki and the World Order, Enki was depicted as the grand architect of the world, just as Ptah is the grand architect of the world. Ptah pre-planned all of creation, and all that will be.

As I stated in the last round, Enki’s actual name is Nudimmud, which means “he created”. In Egyptian Ptah means “to create”, and when a determinative suffix is used to indicate a deity, Ptah means “the creator”.

Enki , a Crafts God or an Agricultural God

Con claims that Enki was a storm god who created rain, and caused flooding; this is false. Enki was not a storm God, Enlil was a storm God. Enki and the World Order does not say Enki caused rain, it said Enki assigned Ishkur to be in charge of rain. Enlil was the God of storms, not Enki.
Many Sumerian gods had agricultural aspects, but only Enki was the patron god of arts and crafts. Enki’s brother, Enlil, was the inventor of the hoe, and so it could also be argued that Enlil was an agricultural god. Enki was not responsible for Rain and Flooding; those were aspects of his brother Enlil. Enki was only associated with ground water; such as aquifers, rivers, and seas. Enlil was responsible for rain, because he was the god of storms.

In Enki and the World Order, Enki proclaimed;

“I brought the arts and crafts from the Mountain Temple, the house of Enlil, to my Abzu in Eridug. I am the good semen, begotten by a wild bull, I am the first born of An.”

After which the Anunaki praised Enki by saying;

"Praise be to Enki, the much-praised lord who controls all the arts and crafts, who takes decisions!"
Enki commanded the 7 Abgal sages, who lived in the Abzu. Under instructions by Enki, the Abgal sages brought Arts and Crafts to humanity from the Abzu. Enki was associated with Arts and Crafts, because it was Enki who gave Arts and Crafts to mankind.
The 7 Abgal sages were also responsible for teaching man morality, and everything else needed for civilization. Ptah was also associated with instilling man with Morality, which lead to his epithet “The lord of Truth”.
If you still doubt that Enki was the lord of crafts; on their website, the Museum of the University of Pennsylvania says “[Enki] was patron of the arts and crafts, and all other achievements of civilization.”

Enki and Ptah

Con didn’t refute any of my points. He simply attacked my sources. My entire argument is not found in the sources, because allot of my arguments are based on years of personal research.

Con claims that Ptah did not rise from Nun, Atum did. Once again, it depends on the local theology. Heliopolis primarily worshiped Atum, while Memphis primarily worshiped Ptah. Helios was the Greek God of the sun, and Heliopolis means the city of the sun in Greek. The Heliopolis theology was centered around the sun, while the Memphis theology was centered around arts and crafts.

The two creation myths of Memphis and Heliopolis were not incompatible. According to the Memphis theology Ptah personified Tatjenen, the primordial mound that sprung from the ocean Nun. In the Heliopolis myth a flower grew on Tatjenen, and from the flower came Atum.

Ptah created Nun, and then rose from Nun personified as Tatjenen. A lotus sprung from the Tatjenen, forming Atum, who created the Ennead with his Semen.

This is similar to the Hindu creation myth, where Brahma grew from the naval of lord Vishnu in the form of a lotus. Vishnu being Ptah personified as Tatjenen. Like Enki, Lord Vishnu saved mankind from a Deluge, as the avatar Matsya. The avatar Matsya has a similar depiction as the Abgal sages who serve Enki. Because the myths of Lord Vishnu correlate with the myths of Enki, it can be assumed that lord Vishnu and Enki share a common origin.

Ptah was often identified with Nun. When Ptah was identified with nun he was called Ptah-Nun. In some myths, Ptah-Nun created the Tatjenen by molding mud.

I don’t know what Con means by he can’t find where in my source it says “Enki created decreed the fate of all things”. It is in most of the myths about Enki. It was Enki’s role to determine the fate of all things, just as Ptah determined the fate of all things. In the myth of Enki and Ninhursag, Ninhursag created new plants. Enki was unaware of the plants, and so he went to name them and decree their fates. When Enki ate the plants he was poisoned. In Sumerian mythology, namely the flood myth, Enki was depicted as having perfect foresight, because he decrees the fate of all things. Enki was often depicted as the grand architect of the world, namely Enki and the World Order (hence the name of the poem).

Ptah Origins

As stated above, the Hindu creation myth is associated with the Lower Egyptian creation myths; Vishnu being Ptah, and Amun being Brahma. The parallels between Lord Vishnu, and Ptah indicate an Eastern origin. The Hindu religion is based on Proto-Indo-Iranian mythology. The Proto-Indo-Iranian mythology is based on Proto-Indo-European mythology, with Mesopotamian influences.

Enki and Lord Vishnu

As stated earlier, Enki and Lord Vishnu both saved mankind from a flood. In the Matsya Purana, Lord Vishnu takes the form of Matsya, and saves King Satyavrata of Kumari Kandam from an impending flood, by instructing him to build a boat. In the Epic of Creation, Enki saved King Ziusudra of Shuruppak from an impending flood, by instructing him to build a boat. The Sumerian flood myth served as the basis for the Babylonian flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The sunken continent of Kumari Kandam shares parallels with the sunken continent of Atlantis; both highly advanced civilizations were destroyed by a flood. Atlantis was under the dominion of Poseidon.

Both the Sumerian Kings list, and the Hindu Yugas state that the world was originally governed by the Gods. During the Satya Yuga mankind was governed by Lord Vishnu; likewise Enki originally governed mankind from Eridu.



Restating the connection
In Round 2, my opponent clearly stated that "Hephaestus was an adaption of Ptah, who was an adaption of Enki, who in turn was an adaption of H2epom Nepots". This is like a chain, we only need to remove one link then the chain will be broken. If we disregard Enki, then whatever similarities between Hephaestus and H2epom Nepots are irrelevant. Unless my opponent wants to argue that "Hephaestus is a direct adaption of H2epom Nepots".

My opponent said that Khnum originated from Elephantine so his myth is influenced by Nubians, not Sumerians. But let's look at Khnum. He is a water god. He is closely associated with the art of pottery (therefore crafts). He is also a creation god who created men [1]. I think everyone can figure out themselves who he is similar to.

Enki as the creator God
My opponent tried to use wording in order to make the connection between Enki and Ptah by saying that both Ptah and Enki created through "speech". However, by his own words, Enki did not actively create things but intructed others to do. While Ptah, who existed before everything, created the world on his own. Whether he used mouth, or heart, or hands is irrelevant. As I said above, Enki as a creation god is similar to Khnum, not Ptah.

Enki, a Crafts God or an Agricultural God
I concede this point.

Enki and Ptah
I don't know why I am not allowed to attack my opponent's source. If he doesn't have evidence to back up his claim, then his points are moot. When I said I can't find where in my opponent's source stating that "Enki created decreed the fate of all things", it literally means that I couldn't find it in the links my opponent provided in Round 3.
And I did refute his points. Is imagining the thing you want to make before actually making it can be used as evidence to show the similarity between the two gods? Isn't that just common sense?

My opponent said that "Ptah personified Tatjenen", and this will serve two purpose: First, to show that Ptah also rose from primordial waters like Enki. Second, to make another connection to Enki through Vishnu (the rest of his arguments are basically Tatjenen = Vishnu = Enki).
Unfortunately, Ptah and Tatjenen (or Tatenen) are two different gods. Yes, sometimes they are combined to become Ptah-Tatenen. But there are also Ptah-Sokari, Ptah-Nun, Ptah-Naunet, Ptah-Atum, Ptah-Shu, Ptah-Osiris. Does my opponent want to argue that the above gods are all Ptah? Amusingly, Ptah-Tatenen is actually a rare combination [2].
On the other hand, Khnum (who, according to my opponent, has a Nubian origin, not Mesopotamian) is identified with Tatenen in "The Hymn to Khnum" [3]. So actually my opponent has proved that Enki is strongly connected to Khnum.

Debate Round No. 4


Restating the connection

In round one I made 2 connections between Poseidon and Hephaestus; both trace back to *H2epom Nepots. The first connection I made was through Enki and Ptah; Con focused on this connection and dropped the 2nd connection entirely. The 2nd connection I made was Agni. Both Poseidon and Hephaestus can be connected to the myth of Agni. Agni is the Vedic god of fire, and Hephaestus is the Greek god of fire. Apam Napat is one of Agni’s many names; Apam Napat was the Vedic god of fresh water, and was often depicted as fire rising out of water. The myth of Agni ties both Poseidon and Hephaestus to *H2epom Nepots. Like Hephaestus, *H2epom Nepots was associated with volcanoes (Hephaestus’s Latin name is Vulcan), and like Poseidon *H2epom Nepots was a water deity. I also made a 3rd connection that was dropped; in Crete, before adopting the myth of Hephaestus, Poseidon was the God of volcanism, and it was not until power transferred to mainland Greece that Hephaestus took over some of Poseidon’s roles.


Khnum was not a direct descendent of Enki, Khnum was a direct descendent of the Nubian pantheon. This is not to say that Enki and Khnum do not share a common origin. I can point to Native American myths, argue that they are descended from Sumerian myths, but that would be geographically impossible; what would be possible is a common origin of the myth before primitive man spread out across the globe. The PIE religion was oral, and yet their mythology gave rise to all the religions of Eurasia.

As stated before prior to the unification of Egypt, Egyptian mythology was localized, with each center developing their own mythology. Khnum arose in Nubia, and Ptah arose in Lower Egypt. Khnum was at the southern border, and Ptah was at the Northern border.

Enki as the creator God

Ptah created the world through speech and through thought; likewise Enki created the world through speech and through thought.

In my source from the last round, under “Facts about Ptah in Egyptian Mythology”, it says “Ptah, the Egyptian creator god of craftsmen, the earth and the Underworld…. Ptah was unique amongst Egyptian gods in that his methods were intellectual, rather than physical…. In the Book of the Dead Ptah was described as the master architect who built the framework of the universe… Ptah was believed to be the source of ethical and moral orders in the world and was given the title of the ‘Lord of Truth.’”

According to the Museum of the University of Pennsylvania; “[Enki] has associations with wisdom, magic and incantations. He was a favourite god amongst diviners (bārû) and exorcist priests (ašipū) as he is the ultimate source of all ritual knowledge used by exorcists to avert and expel evil. Ea was patron of the arts and crafts, and all other achievements of civilization…. Enki's role as a creator of the world is described in Enki and the World Order”

Enki and the World Order, describes Enki as the master architect of the universe; likewise Ptah was the Master architect of the universe. Like Ptah, Enki was revered more for his intellectual deeds than his physical deeds. Like Ptah, Enki was the patron god of arts and crafts. Like Ptah, Enki was responsible for bringing moral order to humanity, and was responsible for the creation of civilization.

Con’s view of Enki is very narrow, and he is ignoring the most important features of the Enki myth.


Con keeps falsely attacking my sources. Just because Con is asserting it is not in my sources does not mean it’s not in my sources. These assertions are false, and defamatory.

Line 199-200 and Line 219 of Enki and Ninhursag reads; "He said to his minister Isimud, "I have not determined the destiny of these plants.”, and "Enki determined the destiny of the plants, had them know it in their hearts."

Line 50-51 of Enki and Ninmah reads; "Enki, the great lord, who can equal your actions? Like a corporeal father, you are the one who has the me of deciding destinies; in fact you are the me."

So as you can see, my sources do say that Enki determined the destinies of all things, regardless of Con’s assertions to the contrary.

Ptah personified as Tatjenen

As I mentioned before, Atem was born from the lotus that grew from Tatjenen. The lotus of creation is personified as the god Nefertem, who was the son of Ptah. Since Nefertem is the son of Ptah, and the Nefertem represents the lotus that grew from the Tatjenen, it is safe to assume that the Tatjenen was the personification of Ptah.

Debate Recap

The name of the Greek Water God, Poseidon, means “Lord of the Earth”, just like the Sumerian water god “Enki”. Another name for Enki is “Nudimmud”, which means “He created”, and the name Ptah means “the creator”. The Linear B name of Hephaestus was A-pi-i-ti-jo, and Pi-i-ti-jo was the Linear B inscription for Ptah. Like Enki, Ptah was the patron god of craftsmen, was the architect of the universe, and was responsible for bringing moral order to humanity.

Enki brought moral order to humanity through the abgal sages. Who were depicted similarly to Matsya, the avatar of Lord Vishnu.
Matsya, the avatar of Lord Vishnu, saved King Satyavrata from a deluge. Likewise Enki saved king Ziusudra from a deluge.

In the Hindu creation myth, while Lord Vishnu was in the primordial waters, a lotus sprouted from his naval. Out of the lotus came Brahma, the creator of the world. Likewise, in the Egyptian creation myth, Ptah rose from the primordial waters of nun, and fathered the lotus god Nefertem. From the lotus came Atem, the creator of the world.

Poseidon was first worshiped in Crete, where he was known as the Earth Shaker. The Minoans of Crete believed Poseidon was responsible for volcanism. Volcanism was later attributed to Hephaestus, who Latin name is Vulcan. Hephaestus was the Greek adaptation of the Egyptian God Ptah; both being the patron god of crafts.

The PIE water god *H2epom Nepots was associated with volcanoes. Poseidon’s Latin name, Neptūnus, is derived from *H2epom Nepots.

Hephaestus was the Greek God of Fire. The Vedic God of fire, Agni, was also known as Apam Napat. Like Enki, Apam Napat was the god of Freshwater, and the creator of man. Apam Napat was depicted as fire rising out of water. The vehicle of Agni was a Ram, and Enki’s boat was named the Ram of the Abzu.

All of the evidence points towards a common origin for Hephaestus and Poseidon.

Argument cited

All sources are already present in earlier rounds.



Restating the connection

In the first round, my opponent didn’t use Agni as a connection between Poseidon and Hephaestus, he used H2epom Nepots. Agni (or Apam Napat) was only used to let us know the characteristics of H2epom Nepots. Considering Mycenaean religion and PIE religion are thousands of years apart, H2epom Nepots can not be considered a connection without an intermediary like Enki.

My opponent has made a lot of minor arguments. For example he also mentioned there was a ram in both Agni’s and Enki’s myth. Do I have to say something like “Okay, I concede this point. It's true that there was a ram. But, so what?” every single time? Therefore, I only focus on his main argument, which is clearly stated in his conclusion of the first round. If I dropped a "connection", it means that I agree that it exists, it doesn't mean that it really worths anything. Whether those minor arguments are enough to back up my opponent's resolution is up to the voters to decide.


My opponent has agreed with the similarities between Khnum and Enki, he only rejected the idea that Khnum was an adaption of Enki with the argument that Khnum was a southern god. He also used an example of Native American myths to back up his point, but it’s a false comparison. It's geographically impossible for Sumerian myth to go to America but it's not geographically impossible for it to go to southern Egyptian.

I will talk more about Khnum later in the argument with Tatjenen.

Enki as the creator God

My opponent said that my view too narrow, then I will say that his view is too general. When you make a general summary, everything will become similar to each other.

Ptah created the world by thought and words. That’s something supernatural, and we knows that Ptah is omnipotent and he is above our comprehension. On the other hand, Enki thinked and made a plan, then instructed others what to do. That’s something achievable for human. The difference in scale is obvious. My opponent also said that "Like Ptah, Enki was revered more for his intellectual deeds than his physical deeds". Well, that's why I said his view is too general. Using that logic, a psychic and a CEO must be the same then.

The statement “Enki's role as a creator of the world is described in Enki and the World Order” is also false. Enki didn’t create the world, he only made it more inhabitable for human, as he is the protector of mankind. Unlike Enki, Ptah is responsible for the whole universe. Again, the difference in scale is obvious.


My opponent accused me of falsely attacking his source. But it is not true.

He used “Enki and Ninhursag” to back up his argument, but the first time he mentioned it is in Round 4. "Enki and Ninmah" was mentioned and used for a different argument. Therefore my criticization of his lack of evidence in Round 3 is valid.

Now he has shown the source, I will accept that “Enki determined the destinies of all things”. However, in Round 3 I also asked about the source for “Ptah represented the ability of artists and craftmen to envision their finish work, and then bring it into being”. Because my opponent has ignored this, therefore it’s safe to assume that he conceded this point.


My opponent tried to combine two different myths into one in order to make a connection. Nefertem was orginally an aspect of Atem (he was called the young Atem) [1], that's why he was associated with the lotus. Later, Nefertum came to be considered as a seperate god from Atem, and Ptah became the chief god of Egypt. That’s when Nefertum was assigned the role of Ptah’s son [2]. In the myth where Nefertem was born from a lotus, he had no parents. In the myth where he was Ptah’s son, he had a mother – Sekhmet. These are two different myths and can’t be combined. If Nefertem was both born from a lotus and Ptah’s son then what is Sekhmet’s role in his birth?

In short, my opponent couldn’t prove that Ptah is Tatjenen. On the other hand, he didn’t refute my point that Khnum is Tatenen, which means he admitted it’s true. By his own effort to prove that Tatjenen came from Enki, he has proved that Khnum is more likely an adaption of Enki than Ptah.

Summary of the debate

My opponent's main argument is both Poseidon and Hephaetus are adaption from the Sumerian god Enki.

I have shown the difference between Ptah and Enki. I have even shown another Egyptian god, Khnum, who is more likely an adaption of Enki than Ptah.

- The scale of power between Ptah and Enki are different. Ptah created the whole universe while Enki only created men. Egyptian myth has another god, Khnum, who created men from silt (Enki created men from clay) who is also a water god and associated with crafts like Enki.

- Enki rose from the primordial waters of the Abzu is similar to Tatjenen rose from the primordial waters of Nun. My opponent failed to prove that Ptah is Tatjenen while I have proved that Khnum is Tatjenen.

- When comparing the Egyptian myth and Sumerian myth to Hindu myth, we can see that both Tatjenen and Enki are similar to Vishnu. Again, Ptah is not Tatejnen, Khnum is.

Therefore, I’ve broken the connection between Haephatus and Enki (through Ptah). As the result, I can say that my opponent has failed to prove that Poseidon and Haephatus is the same god.

As the last words I want to thank my opponent for this great debate. I've learnt a lot from him and from my own research in preparation of my arguments.

Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by 4saken 4 years ago
Well, my goal is to show differences between Ptah and Enki. The connection to Khnum is just a bonus.
By the way, even if we ignore Khnum we still have Tatenen. To the last round I am still able to counter your argument that Ptah = Tatenen. So they are different gods and Tatenen is more similar to Enki than Ptah.
Posted by DanT 4 years ago
Idk why you focused on proving a connection between Khmum and Enki, without contesting that Egyptian creation myths were localized and arose independently of one another. The connection between Khmum and enki has no bearing on the connection between Ptah and Enki unless you can first disprove that upper egyptian and lower egyptian myths arose independently before being fused after the unification of Egypt.
Posted by 4saken 4 years ago
I made a mistake. When I said "the first round", I actually meant the "second round".
There is no argument in Round 1. It started in Round 2.
Posted by 4saken 4 years ago
I have to say that I'm really impressed by your knowledge.
I'll need to do some serious research then.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by KingDebater 4 years ago
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: This was an interesting debate to watch, as the resolution was very unique to some other debates we see on this website. I had no opinion in this topic before the debate, but Pro managed to sway me so I'm giving arguments to Pro.