The Instigator
Chaosism
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
vi_spex
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Possibilities are Potentially Now

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Chaosism
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/21/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 532 times Debate No: 73927
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

Chaosism

Pro

Hi again, vi_spex! Please accept this challenge if you *disagree* with the statements the below.

I wish to argue that beliefs, although you deem them false, are acted upon as if they were true. In essence, possibilities should not be universally accepted as false, but rather a fair amount of them should be treated as "potentially true". I will also argue that you almost certainly would not still be alive today if you had no beliefs, as you claim.

I have an opening question for you:
Since we can see (physical experience of now) that there is relative movement between the sun and the earth, does the sun orbit around the earth or is it the other way around?

I will try to use your definitions as much as I can:

"belief=(is)imaginary=future=0" [1]
"false=imaginary" [1]
"belief=false" [1]
"0=information=nothing" [1]
"prediction=imaginary" [2]

Other definitive statements:
"possibilities are false, imaginary" [2]
"belief=false, as i dont know is true=be lie" [2]
"i have no beliefs" [2]

[1] DDO Debate and Debate Comments of "false=anywhere beoyond my personal physical experience of now" - http://www.debate.org...
[2] DDO Debate and Debate Comments of " 'I believe God doesn't exist' is not Atheism" - http://www.debate.org...
vi_spex

Con

possibility has an opposite side, therfore it can not be true by default


now dosnt have 2 sides, me writing these words is not something that can happening, it is happening, but as you read it i remember i did write it.


beliefs inform actions, thoughts and emotions


treated as if, act upon as if..



belief is the opposite of life, know is life. being lost is not knowing i am now


hm i can see the sun when its up :)







Debate Round No. 1
Chaosism

Pro

:: vi_spex said, "possibility has an opposite side, therfore it can not be true by default"

But they have the *potential* to become true, or to become now. Now = Know = True. Do you deny the passage of time?

:: vi_spex said, "now dosnt have 2 sides, me writing these words is not something that can happening, it is happening, but as you read it i remember i did write it."

Now can be false; your physical experience of now does not equal true. Your senses can be mistaken; i.e., and optical illusion.

:: vi_spex said, "beliefs inform actions, thoughts and emotions"

Yes, and belief is required for meaningful action. You accepted this debate because you BELIEVED that I would provide further argument. You pressed the buttons on your keyboard because you BELIEVED that the letter would appear on the screen. Both of those predictions could have easily been false, had I not responded or if your keyboard became disconnected. You have beliefs.

If you diagree, why did you press the buttons on your keyboard?

:: vi_spex said, "belief is the opposite of life, know is life. being lost is not knowing i am now"

watching television = death, turn my back = destruction. This is entirely irrelevant to this issue.

:: vi_spex said, "hm i can see the sun when its up"

Does the sun orbit around the earth or is it the other way around? One of them is obviously moving.

Please answer these questions...

1. Do you deny the passage of time?
2. Why did you press the buttons on your keyboard?
3. Does the sun orbit around the earth or is it the other way around?
vi_spex

Con

future is ahead of now, now is true.

if i predict something with 100 percent accuracy i stil didnt know

i dont know=i have to imagine it

only the time of now is true, now is matter.

an optical illusion dosnt make my eyes false, neither does it make me blind, i am certain when i see an optical illusion

now is true, the physicality of my body can never be mental

i dont have to expect that i will reach the glass of water to reach for it, i see the glass and take it

i dont believe you will provide further argument, you might not, i dont know, i know my experience of now

i see words on my screen and i respond to them, i assume that another person is reading them thou

i dont know about the suns orbit

now=reality loop 1 second or less=personal physical experience

i press the buttons to respond to my mechanical reflection
Debate Round No. 2
Chaosism

Pro

:: vi_spex said, "if i predict something with 100 percent accuracy i stil didnt know"
:: vi_spex said, "now=reality loop 1 second or less=personal physical experience"

I know, I know... future=imaginary=false, now=know=true. Essentially, the future doesn't exist ("now") so it is false.

BUT, the fact remains that one CAN predict the future and DOES act upon that prediction as if it was true.

prediction = imagination = false
prediction = imagination = potentially now

"Potentially Now" means that it might become now. It doesn't mean that it is true, but it is possible that now can match that prediction of the future. This is founded in the passage of time, but you cannot deny that. You have defined "now" as a "1-second loop", which infers that you recognize the passage of time.

If you are standing on the ledge of a four-story building, you would likely not step off the building. Why is that? You personal experience of now has never included a four-story fall onto hard ground below, so the consequences of stepping off the building must be imagined, which is false (future=false). However, your actions will be affected by your belief, even though you deem it as false, or "be lie". You have beliefs, even if they are false, your actions are influence by them AS IF they were true. They are "potentially true".

belief = prediction = future = false = potentially now

:: vi_spex said, "only the time of now is true, now is matter."

But your actions are influence by information, which is false. If a train is speeding towards you, you will get off of the train tracks because you predict that you will be struck if you do not move. You are acting under the assumption that your prediction will become now. If you did not act upon your beliefs (potentially now), then you would have no reason to avoid coming danger and would not be around to respond to this.

:: vi_spex said, "an optical illusion dosnt make my eyes false, neither does it make me blind, i am certain when i see an optical illusion"

I didn't say that. So, your physical experience defines reality. By that logic, you must have perfect vision. To admit otherwise would be admitting that you are not seeing everything correctly, which means that there is more to reality than what you see or that you are seeing it differently, which implies that there is more to reality than your perception. Do you follow that?

Have you ever heard of "Transitive Relation"? If A = B, and B = C, then A = C [1]? I believe this logic applies here.

A: Reality
B: Physical Experience of Now
C: Sensory Perception

reality = physical experience of now (= true)
physical experience of now = sensory perception (= true)
sensory perception = reality (= true)

If you sensory perception is not perfect, then it is not always true.
This would mean that your sensory perception does not always equal your physical experience of now.
This would then mean that your sensory perception not does always equal reality.
This implies that your are not seeing reality perfectly, which means that there is more to reality than what you sense.

:: vi_spex said, "i dont have to expect that i will reach the glass of water to reach for it, i see the glass and take it"

What if you were mistakenly looking at a reflection in a mirror and didn't realize it (it can happen)? You "know" that the glass is there (physical experience of now) but when you reach to grab it, you hit the mirror, instead. This indicates that your physical experience of now was wrong.

:: vi_spex said, "i dont believe you will provide further argument, you might not, i dont know, i know my experience of now"

My point is that you acted AS IF you knew. Why else would you have bothered to respond? Can you give me a reason?

[1] Wikipedia: Transitive Relation - http://en.wikipedia.org...
vi_spex

Con

i can at best reach the future with my imaginiation, thefore its false.

as i mention before, i can never step into my imagination with my physical body, future is ahead of now

you keep saying... as if... you can act all day long dosnt make ghosts true..

man.. after learning as i grow up.. no one needs to tell me i shouldnt put my hand on the stove even thou i have never done it before..

i know logic, so i know if i jump of the cliff i will splat on the ground unless reality changes as i jump of the roof...

now is true, can never be false, matter is now, my perception of false is not matter

i am certain of what i see.. paper thin arguments

its just sensory experience, and it is real. try losing your eyes and watching the next sunrise

i cant see false with my physical eyes.. i cant physically experience my imagination

then i wouldnt be certain of what im reaching for... you are getting thinner and thinner man

THIN, dont be a THIN KING

i respond... to the light on my screen.. how would you reply if i dont send this message...

i can drink my self drunk... and do stuff having 0 certainty.. dosnt make my physical experience false, i just have limits on my certainty of experience of wahtever..
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Kozu 2 years ago
Kozu
He can if he tries. He just, usually doesn't try...
Posted by Chaosism 2 years ago
Chaosism
Do'h! I thought I made this a 5-Round debate. Oh, well...
Posted by Chaosism 2 years ago
Chaosism
I want to see him become more able to express his thoughts in a format that others could at least hope to understand. I shall begin development of the "vi_spex encyclopedia" so he can just attached that to the beginning of every debate.
Posted by Kozu 2 years ago
Kozu
Don't get me wrong, I always want vi_spex to win. I just can't ever come up with a valid reason to give it to him.

I try my best, I really do.
Posted by Chaosism 2 years ago
Chaosism
I already knew that one. I'm scared...

BTW - I urge that no one votes on this unless they believe vi_spex won. I'm not trying to "rack up" wins with these debates.
Posted by Kozu 2 years ago
Kozu
"belief is the opposite of life"

Better jot that one down Chaos.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 8elB6U5THIqaSm5QhiNLVnRJA 2 years ago
8elB6U5THIqaSm5QhiNLVnRJA
Chaosismvi_spexTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro used sources and Con made numerous grammatical errors including misspelling and lack of capitalization while Pro made virtually none in comparison. Con's entire case was anecdotal and subjective in nature. Pro's entire case was factual and went totally unrefuted by Con by the last round.