The Instigator
Steve0Yea
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
wierdman
Con (against)
Winning
20 Points

Prayer is pointless.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
wierdman
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/7/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,554 times Debate No: 17810
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (5)

 

Steve0Yea

Pro

First time debater, not exactly sure how the structure of a debate works but i love to argue, especially about religion and/or the existence of God(s).

Please forgive my grammar and correct me where i am wrong. I am going to try and keep this short and sweet especially because i have no idea what I'm doing.

If God is perfect[2],[3],[4] and God has a plan[5], then why do we pray? Isn't asking God to deviate from his plan pointless? If God is omnipotent then he knows everything[1]: the future, the past, what we all are thinking, and what we all want. So why ask him for something if he already knows what you want, and what you are going to get out of life? Also, if he does "Change his mind" isn't that proving God wrong? Does that make God imperfect? Or does that make prayer pointless?

[1] "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!" (Revelation 19:6)

[2] Matthew 5:48 (Jesus): Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[3] 2 Corinthians 13:9
For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

[4] Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

[5]"For I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, they are plans for good, not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11
wierdman

Con

I would like to Thank my opponent for this debate topic as well as wish him a good luck in the round.
I would also like to welcome my opponent to the web site and hope he fully enjoy the function included.

I would like to begin by stating that prayer to most is a means to communicate with God and not just to ask for deeds. My opponent stated in his argument that "If God is omnipotent then he knows everything" however he failed to realize the meaning of prayer. According to the scripture, prayer is a means to communicate with God as well as confess ones sin for redemption. According to a recent article by http://www.sundayschoollessons.com..., "We pray because God wants us to tell him what is on our minds. Even though he sees and understands our situations better than we do, he still wants to hear from us in our own words.". With thisw been said we must move to the point or significance of prayer.

Point one: privilege

In other to fully understand the significance of prayer, we must know the meaning of prayer. Prayer like i mentioned earlier is communicating with God.prayer is noting more than a privilege purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ, it allows us to communicate with the creator of all things as well as giving us a window of redemption as it also allows us to confess our wrong doing and as for redemption. "Prayer is a privilege purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ. Christ died for this end, it cost him the shedding of his blood, so that we, through him, might have entrance to the throne of grace. And will you let such a privilege as this lie still? If you do, so far as is in you, you cause his blood to be shed in vain. For if you neglect the privileges gotten by that blood, you neglect the blood that procured them. [The Puritans on Prayer p.17]" (http://www.unionchurch.com...). In addition to this, just like communication is a vital part of a relationship, prayer allows us to form a relationship with God, it allows God to guide our thoughts in making the right decisions.

Point two: Communion

Prayer allows us to connect spiritually to God, to bring to earth the divine teaching of God. Prayer feels every activity we perform with meaning as it allows us to feel and experience the holiness of that which is spiritual and heavenly. Prayer as i mentioned earlier creates a bond with all that is holy and everlasting.
"Prayer is communion with God. Prayer is that act of going into God's presence to be with the Lord. Prayer is bringing God and His resources into our earthly realities. Prayer is drawing upon divine resources to influence human reality. Prayer is breathing the breath of heaven. Prayer is the master key to everything we have been called to do. Without it our activities are empty, human and lack the breath of heaven. It is temporal and will never last." (http://knol.google.com...#).

In conclusion prayer is the the master Key to all things in God.
Debate Round No. 1
Steve0Yea

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate, it was pointed out to me in the debate comments that the topic is actually incorrect. I assumed that was just the title of the debate, in fact I stated my point in my opening arguments with "Isn't asking God to deviate from his plan pointless?" What was meant by "pointless" is it will not change Gods Plan and if it does wouldn't that make him imperfect… but you accepted before I had a chance to change it. I will address your points and I ask you to revisit my original post taking into consideration the difference now in the topic.

"According to the scripture, prayer is a means to communicate with God as well as confess ones sin for redemption. According to a recent article by http://www.sundayschoollessons.com......, "We pray because God wants us to tell him what is on our minds. Even though he sees and understands our situations better than we do, he still wants to hear from us in our own words.""

Now, I'm not sure what verse or what scripture tells you "Prayer is a means to communicate with God as well as confess ones sins for redemption." But according to James 5:16 "Therefore confess your sins to each other…." I take this verse to mean confess to a priest or pastor or even the person you sinned against about your sins. It doesn't necessarily mean speak to God, although I'm sure it could be taken that way. Also, I am certain that the statement "He still wants to hear from us in our own words" Is quite an assumption considering you cannot claim to know the thoughts of God. What verse or scripture states that?

Point 1:

I didn't fully get into this point because it was so far off my original topc, however one part i will touch one quickly

"it allows God to guide our thoughts in making the right decisions."

Once again, if God is omnipotent why do you need to pray for him to guide your thoughts. He can guide your thoughts without you praying. He is all-powerful. He is not a car, he doesn't need an ignition source to be able to run he can talk to you freely without you having to speak first.

Point 2:
I have to succeed on this point, I have no argument against it creating a bond with God. It very well may do so. It may also do good for the person doing the praying. It may make people feel closer to God. Or better about themselves on this point I have no argument other than it shouldn't, because he does not exists it is just false hope. But that is a whole other debate…

Also, I will not accept religious websites as a form of proof. For a pastor or priest to claim to what God wants or what he is thinking is, I believe, very presumptuous.
wierdman

Con

Thank you for posting

My opponent makes a good point by stating that "according to James 5:16 "Therefore confess your sins to each other…." I take this verse to mean confess to a priest or pastor or even the person you sinned against about your sins.". When looking at this verse, we find that it is completely different from my meaning of confession. When you pray, you just don't confess your sin, you ask for redemption.

Point one.
"Once again, if God is omnipotent why do you need to pray for him to guide your thoughts. He can guide your thoughts without you praying."

This statement might be true; however, just like God wants us to communicate with him, to talk about our problems, he also want us to present our problems and as for guidance no matter what we believe.

Point two:
My opponent succeeded to my second point does giving me an automatic advantage.

In conclusion: I presented a concrete case to protect my belief whereas my opponent did not present a case and succeeding to my point. For these reason i urge you to vote in my favor.
Debate Round No. 2
Steve0Yea

Pro

This isn't going to go much further obviously, since you refuse to answer my only real question and reason for this argument...

Will prayer change Gods plan?

You keep stating thing about what God wants without any sort of proof. I can do the same...

My opponent claims to know what God is thinking, I spoke to God this morning and he informed me that my opponent is actually speaking with Satan!!! Vote Pro!!!

See?... That's not really fair. Please stick with scripture...
wierdman

Con

I will answer my opponents question.. No prayer does not change Gods plan.

I provided proof of these statement in my opening speech.

I did not say that i know what God is thinking rather i stated that we should pray simply because it helps us communicate with God.

I urge you to vote Con simply because unlike pro, i presented some evidence as well as answer the real question behind the debate.
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by alex0828 5 years ago
alex0828
Steve, thats good, you should debate it again.
Posted by Steve0Yea 5 years ago
Steve0Yea
Yea, i thought i made it clear that my resolution was improperly stated. When you start the debate the part where you type in your resolution is labeled as "Title" not "Resolution" My first paragraph (i thought) clearly stated my resolution as "Prayer will not change "Gods Plan"" and if it does then "Wouldn't that make God imperfect?" which is a broad statement but if they couldn't get past the first statement (Which i doubt they would have been able to) then the second statement would have been irrelevant.

I screwed up, i will re-debate this point again soon.
Posted by Doulos1202 5 years ago
Doulos1202
Unfortunately I dont have 3 completed debates however If I could post my votes the majority would go to Con. Reason being Pro has little strength to his arguements which were somewhat topical on the subject. Easy win for Con.
Posted by Zuko 5 years ago
Zuko
Interesting debate, I'd be bookmarking this
Posted by Steve0Yea 5 years ago
Steve0Yea
Ahhhh, that's a very good point. I guess what i meant is "Prayer wont change Gods Plan"... i just tried to change it but it was accepted to soon.

Thank you very much though... i wish i would of read your comment a little bit sooner. I overlooked that.
Posted by Double_R 5 years ago
Double_R
Welcome to DDO. I just want to point out that your resolution is very easy to defeat. By stating that "Prayer is pointless", all your opponent has to do is present 1 single reason to pray and your argument is lost. Unless you further specify what you are debating, your opponents reason for having a point to pray would not have to go against what you said in round 1.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by randolph7 5 years ago
randolph7
Steve0YeawierdmanTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro welcome to DDO. Make sure to read the forum tutorial for newcomers - it has many tips on formatting, etc. Con argued his case effective. I couldn't really follow pro's.
Vote Placed by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
Steve0YeawierdmanTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Counter Bomb
Vote Placed by DoctrinallyCorrect 5 years ago
DoctrinallyCorrect
Steve0YeawierdmanTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I read the debate.
Vote Placed by alex0828 5 years ago
alex0828
Steve0YeawierdmanTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro made his resolution too broad and unclear. Con offered a solid argument whereas Pro didn't really confirm what the real resolution was. Advice for Pro: solidly state the resolution in round 1. Also, cite sources.
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
Steve0YeawierdmanTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: 1 Point to a new debater for joining an issuing a debate. However, the resolution is stated that "Prayer is Pointless" and Con demonstrated that even if it is not effectual, that does not mean that it is pointless.