The Instigator
wingnut2280
Pro (for)
Losing
15 Points
The Contender
dullurd
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points

Praying for Rudy

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/15/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,047 times Debate No: 1814
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (13)
Votes (13)

 

wingnut2280

Pro

As I watch the Republican primaries, I can only hope that Florida comes through for Rudy and we nominate the best candidate for president in America's Mayor.

Rudy Giuliani is, by far, the best candidate for president, in either party. There is no other candidate who has his proven leadership and effective governing ability. All other candidates claim to have provided us with "real change", but who, other than Rudy can claim to have completely turned around the fifth largest government in the country the way he did?

Present me with a candidate of your choice and I will prove that Rudy is far superior for the office. I have made the debate four rounds in the hopes that we will get to the crux of the issue. I will be more than happy to provide specifics in later rounds. Thanks!
dullurd

Con

I see you've already had this debate, so hopefully it won't bore you overmuch if I choose to defend Ron Paul. Since this is 4 rounds, I'll just give a bare bones outline in round 1 then elaborate in the later rounds.

Reasons why Giuliani is bad:
-overly aggressive/ignorant foreign policy that will be financially and diplomatically ruinous, not to mention imperil national security
-no respect for civil liberties or the Constitution
-will make government bigger and will continue programs that ought to be discontinued, such as the war on drugs

why Paul is better:
-intelligent foreign policy that will restore the American economy and improve relations with basically every country, and improve national security
-staunch defender of civil liberties and the Constitution
-will cut wasteful, inefficient, and unjust government programs
Debate Round No. 1
wingnut2280

Pro

1) Foreign Policy

I can honestly see where Paul is coming from on foreign policy. In theory it would work well, but the reality is, we are already in the predicament and practicing what Paul preaches would leave us in a terrible position. I actually agree with Paul. We shouldn't be policing the world to the extent that we are, but, the fact is, we are. Giuliani would make sure we secure ourselves in the middle east and Iraq without being terrible overzealous like the other Republicans who give us this "to the gates of hell" rhetoric. Giuliani looks at the situation we are in with a practical outlook. We NEED to stay in Iraq and get it done. Leaving would be reckless, no matter how much we want to. Giuliani is not in favor of pursuing wars in dozens of countries or policing the world, he merely wants to keep America safe. Whether Bush is doing that is not the issue. What we need to do to get there is. Giuliani knows that it is to late to pullout and act like nothing happened, they already hate us. What we need to do is work to secure the mess we have made and keep us safe abroad. Paul's policy, though ideal, is not practicable.

2) Civil Liberties

I have a deep respect for Paul's commitment to the Consitution. He is one of the few Congressmen who truly sticks to his guns.

Giuliani has this same respect for civil liberties. He protected the 2nd amdmnt in NY while cutting violent crime in half. He protected privacy rights while simultaneously uncovering and reporting a record number of illegal immigrants. Giuliani is also a strict constructionist, like Paul. However, Giuliani does not take the strict construction to the impractical extreme. He respects and has personally defended the Constitution and civil liberites as Associate Attorney General under Reagan. Despite Paul's great personal stands, he does not have the first-hand defense of the Constitution that Giuliani has.

3) Government

To the contrary, Giuliani is a typical Reagan Republican. Cutting spending and waste, smaller government, and more efficiency is his montra. Giuliani has been consistently preaching these concepts throughout his career and campaign. I don't see how this is Rudy at all.

Paul wants to make drastic government change and alienates, if not scares, many voters in the process. Rudy is the candidate who recognizes and champions many of the classic Republican and Conservative views that Paul trumpets, but applies them to the problems we are facing today in a practical and applicable way. Paul is a theory candidate. His views are ideal and over-reaching. They could never work in practice like Giuliani has proven he can.

Giuliani worked miracles in NYC. He is the most proven and best candidate. There is no reason to think Paul would do a better job.
dullurd

Con

dullurd forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
wingnut2280

Pro

Like I said, its a matter of applicability. Paul's ideals are certainly Republican and sound great in theory, but at this time we need a candidate who will put those ideals into practice. Giuliani is a proven leader who maintains all of the values you say he does not, as I illustrated last round. Giuliani is by far, the best candidate. He draws several distinctions between the other republicans on the war and is a well-rounded republican, so to speak.
dullurd

Con

dullurd forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
wingnut2280

Pro

Again, Rudy is the best candidate. He is better than Ron Paul because he has proven executive leadership. His position on the issues are good ones, as I pionted out. He is a realist with proven success.
dullurd

Con

dullurd forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
Oh, and mmadderom, you obviously don't seem to understand how welfare works now. Here is the link to my debate on welfare programs. Educate yourself.

http://www.debate.org...

And that "poor,poor" sentence was me making logical connections, not me saying emphasizing how poor they are. Maybe my diction was confusing, or maybe you twist things to fit how you want them.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
As for Jlconservative, I'm sorry about your uncle, cousins and friend, but the fact remains that the war was a giant mistake. Iraq never had WMDs. It had nothing to do with 9/11. Hussein and Al Queda never had anything to do with each other. Bin Ladin and Hussein never trusted each other. We stopped pursuing Bin Ladin so we could get into Iraq. Every report, even commissioned by Bush himself, has backed all this up. Then there is the testimony of the analysts themselves who knew all along that Bush was wrong about Iraq, but were ignored and muzzled by the appointed CIA leaders. Then you have what the administration did to Valerie Plame because her husband spoke up about how wrong Bush was. Lets also not forget that Tenet knew the claims Powell was making at the UN were wrong for months before Powell's speech.

The fact of the matter is that your family members should never have been there in the first place. We were lied to about WMDs, and families like yours bought the deceit. What's sad is, you have to believe it because its a disgusting waste any other way. But like I said in my last comment, the truth hurts and it isnt our fault that it does. It's Bush's fault. The surge is only the result of years of criticism about his failed strategy. Gen. Shinseki was calling for this strategy before the war even began, but Bush fired him. But the surge is only going to pacify parts of Baghdad, which is what we're seeing. Now, previously safe parts of northern Iraq are now getting bombed. For example, Mosul over the last week. Not only that, but the surge itself, as it is, is not sustainable. We don't have enough people or equipment. Without the Iraqi government getting its act together, the surge won't work ultimately. But the point of it is, us Democrats are sick of people like your family members and friends dying is a war we were all lied to about in the first place. Nothing justifies it after how we got into it.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
Really? Ignorant? Some individual members might disagree with the Union, but the vast majority of them do agree with their own union. To say otherwise is just grasping as straws and hoping you might be right. Well, here. Let me actually back up what I say with evidence.

Here's what one FDNY Deputy Fire Chief says about Rudy on 9/11. I don't think anyone could say it better.
http://bravenewfilms.org...

Here's what the International Association of Fire Fighters has to say about Rudy:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com...

Here's a video of the President of the NYPD's Patrolmen's Benevolent Association saying Rudy doesn't deserve to be president:
http://bravenewfilms.org...

Here's another quote from the PBA:
http://gothamist.com...

And then there's the New York Time's anti-endorsement of Rudy. Have you heard it yet? If not, here it is from a CNN online article:
"The Rudolph Giuliani of 2008 first shamelessly turned the horror of 9/11 into a lucrative business, with a secret client list, then exploited his city's and the country's nightmare to promote his presidential campaign," the paper writes, describing Giuliani as "a narrow, obsessively secretive, vindictive man."

As for abortion cutting crime rates, let me enlighten you some more.

http://www.slate.com...

Also, read "Freakonomics".

Nothing in my comment made any value statements about whether or not it was a good thing, its just fact. It's not my fault if the truth upsets you, but its still the truth. Here are some stats on who has abortions:
http://www.ms4c.org...

Maybe not the majority of women, but they are disproportionally poor.

That's whats sad about conservatives. The internet puts info at your fingertips, but you still ignore it. Is it laziness?
Posted by Jlconservative 9 years ago
Jlconservative
because you moron, the only reason that we are beginning to be able to see victory in the East is because the surge is working. Do you know why the surge is working?? because the Iraqi people are helping us capture major terrorists leaders by giving us information, and showing us where they are. The issue has not been that the information was not there, the issue was that the people who knew where leaders like Hussein were hiding did not trust to tell us, because they know what the terrorist leaders would do to them but when they finally do trust us because of the surge,they put their life on the line believing that the Americans are going to free them from the terror regime. Now when Hillary Clinton or Obama plan an immediate withdraw from the East, whats going to happen when we leave a weak,unstable, unready government in control of the once terrorist controlled lands? the people who trusted us are going to massacred just like in Vietnam, the government will collapse, the Islamic Jihadists who want two things, Israel wiped off the map, and the United States wiped off the map will take over again, and our troops who died fighting for freedom, and security will have died in vain. Its simple do you believe Hillary Clinton, or General Petraeus?

Oh and dont try and lecture me "You guys should ask the soldiers who they want to vote for and who they gave the most money to." I have lost two cousins an uncle and a friend in this war. My family has been in every single war in American history, and not one of us opposes the war. You left wing lunatics should take a piece of your own advice, ask the troops.
Posted by Doctau 9 years ago
Doctau
I just want to add, how is leaving a country we invaded not practical?
Posted by Doctau 9 years ago
Doctau
There are many other candidates to pick from and people pick Rudy?!?! I mean cmon! What would he do? Take more money from intereest groups? Make the war go on even longer? Do people who like Rudy like war? You guys should ask the soldiers who they want to vote for and who they gave the most money to.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
Please do explain to me how the "majority" of women having abortions are "poor", mind. ALL evidence says you are wrong.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
"But when you look at the numbers, you realize that it was actually the legalization of abortion that lowered crime rates."

Wow. Just wow.

"The majority of people who have abortions are poor, poor people tend to commit more crime than everyone else"

Holy mother of God...

"magically the crime rate dropped when kids that would have ben born after 1973 starting hitting their teenage years."

Fewer people = less crime? Who'd have thunk it?

Is controlling the "poor poor" population from having children important? ABSOLUTELY. Is abortion the way to do so? Uh, no. In fact, the poor poor women you speak of DON'T get abortions. Having a child is akin to getting a raise at work for them.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
"You really show your ignorance if you think the FDNY or NYPD like Rudy."

No, That STATEMENT is ignorant. What some union decrees is NOT necessarily the opinion of it's members.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
Cjet79 has it right. You really show your ignorance if you think the FDNY or NYPD like Rudy. They hate him. Not only was his leadership ineffective for the reasons that cjet79 listed, but they view him as taking all the credit for the job the first responders did when all he did was walking around having everyone else telling him what was going on. His only claim to fame is a fraud.

The problem with Rudy is that he is a one-issue candidate. Again, as cjet79 mentioned, Rudy rests on 9/11 like a crutch. Joe Biden had it right when he characterized Rudy as saying "noun, verb, 9/11".

Lets be honest here. New York's crime rate dropped along with the rest of the country. Bill Clinton also tries to take credit for the dramatically lowering crime rate that happened during his term. But when you look at the numbers, you realize that it was actually the legalization of abortion that lowered crime rates. The majority of people who have abortions are poor, poor people tend to commit more crime than everyone else, and magically the crime rate dropped when kids that would have been born after 1973 starting hitting their teenage years. States with higher abortion rates had the largest drops in crime. Conversely, states with lower abortion rates didn't see much of a drop at all. New York had a very high abortion rate following Roe v. Wade. So no, Rudy had nothing to do with lowering crime, just like Clinton had nothing to do with it either.

When you look at it, every crutch Rudy leans on is either totally misrepresented or an outright fraud. That's why he's running third in Florida after the rest of the country abandoned him too.

And lets not be delusional here either. Real clear politics takes the average of 5 polls, meaning that there are also polls that show Rudy even further behind then they say. Rudy is going to lose, and he has no one to blame but himself.
13 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Darth_Grievous_42 9 years ago
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wingnut2280dullurdTied
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