The Instigator
jo021698j
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Sunfire315
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Predestination (Pro/For) vs. Free Will (Con/Against)

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
jo021698j
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/24/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 418 times Debate No: 87191
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (1)

 

jo021698j

Pro

The debate here is a dangerous one, but I feel the need to address it in a culture where everyone accepts the free will aspect of Christianity. This is a minor doctrine, so it is not super important for a believer to believe this.

I have been curious for quite some time to what Arminians use for their defense and I have seen many defenses but none have been based on "Sola Scriptura", which weakens their point.

My goal is to show BIBLICAL evidence for predestination and to express my side in the best way possible.

Your job, as the viewers, is to vote according to argument and not belief. See who displays their argument better than the other and do not be biased to your own side, unless you are convinced that the opposing view of yours did not lay out the fundamentals in a understandable way.

Now... To start, we have to lay down a few questions in order to believe in predestination.

1. Does God love everyone?
2. Does God ever intervene in someone's will?
3. Is there proof of predestination in the Bible?

1. DOES GOD LOVE EVERYONE?

This is the critical question to answer when discussing predestination, because if you believe that God loves everyone, then why on earth would he decide to harden people's hearts? Most Christians today believe that God indeed loves EVERYONE and cannot hate anyone.

Logically, let us dig deeper into this. I want the viewers to ask themselves these three questions?

Does God love sin?
Does God love Satan?
Does God love Servants of Satan?

IF you answered no for the first two, you have to answer no for the final question. It would be impossible to explain logically how you could say no two the first two and yes to the last one.

Before coming to Christ, we were all servants of Satan and lived according to our own desires. (Ephesians 2:1-3)

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, FOLLOWING the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience" among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

To go along with this, let us turn to the Psalms.

Psalms 6:

"There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers."

When we were "dead in our trespasses", wouldn't you say you did one of these things? And yet you think that God just loves people who aren't born again because of this idea we've been taught ever since the "Second Great Awakening".

And yet again, we turn to Romans 9 and read this in verse 13:

"Just as it is written: 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

So it is possible that God CAN hate someone on this earth. As crazy as it sounds, it is true.

So by using this information, we can dig deeper into predestination.

2. DOES GOD EVER INTERVENE IN SOMEONE'S WILL?

Remember the term "FREE WILL". Let us define it here and now.

According to a site called REKNEW.ORG, the "biblical definition" looks like this:

"Scripture portrays humans as having minds and wills of their own. They are, in a real (though limited) sense, creators of their own behavior and determiners of their own destinies"whether this behavior and destiny is in line with God"s will or not."

See more at: http://reknew.org...

So it doesn't sound too bad right? But we dig deeper into this claim...

Determiners of their own destinies...

He's saying that NO ONE ELSE DETERMINES YOUR DESTINY! We decide our ultimatum and God cannot stop that!

But... What about Exodus 9?

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses."

So... God hardened pharaoh's heart? Sounds like pharaoh didn't have free will. If he did he would harden his own heart, right?

Also. The Lord's Prayer! Think about it... "Let YOUR (God's) will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Not MY will be done.

There are some times where I am confused because people who believe in Free Will make God seem like a "deist" God, which means he is no longer involved in our lives and we just do EVERYTHING ourselves.

"But now, O Lord, You are our Father, we are the clay, and You our potter; and all of us are the work of Your hand" (Is. 64:8).

As we see in Isaiah, WE ARE NOT THE POTTER AND THE CLAY. God is the potter and we are the clay and He can do with us whatever His good plan has for us.

"The king"s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes" (Prov. 21:1). This is another example of God doing whatever he pleases and intervening with our "free will..." Man... This free will thing doesn't seem so free to me.

"I know, O Lord, that a man"s way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23). Again... Another verse where God is the ultimate control of where a man ultimately goes.

3. IS THERE PROOF OF PREDESTINATION IN THE BIBLE?

Let's pull out the key verses of predestination, shall we?

Ephesians 1:4-5 "Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

Romans 8: 28-30 "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

2 Timothy 1:9 "He has saved us and called us to a holy life"not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time..."

Ephesians 1:11-12 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."

These are just a few verses that explain my point.

I would love to see if my opponent has any Bible verses that specifically say "Free Will". It's funny that the Bible has the word "predestined" but not "free will" and yet the majority of Christians believe in the latter.

Good luck to my opponent and I am looking forward to discussing this with you.
Sunfire315

Con

If we do not have free will, then none of us could be at a fault for what we do. But then there could be no sin without free will, as in order to sin you must be morally culpable for your action. And if there is no sin, what does Christ redeem us from? Nothing.
Debate Round No. 1
jo021698j

Pro

I have a feeling that my opponent may or may not know what Predestination is, so I am going to give him the definition for it so he can fully understand.

"PREDESTINATION is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved."

http://www.gotquestions.org...

This is Predestination in a nutshell.

I am now going to analyze my opponent's argument in a very specific and biblical way.

"If we do not have free will, then none of us could be at a fault for what we do. But then there could be no sin without free will, as in order to sin you must be morally culpable for your action. And if there is no sin, what does Christ redeem us from? Nothing."

My opponent believes that predestination states that everything we do is predestined... Meaning we are like puppets. This is inaccurate and I will explain why.

Predestination is a broad term, but specifically used in the Bible to describe the coming to salvation. Meaning, the word predestination can mean that God predetermined some things to happen to some people, but in the case of salvation, he handled everything.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. John 6:44

It is with this informatoin that we can then go to Romans 8:28 -

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

In this case, the parallel between Romans and John is called and drawed. They are the same thing in this case, which means that only the ones the Lord calls will he justify and glorify, meaning God doesn't call everyone nor draw everyone.

The Bible does teach that we have a WILL, but Free Will is a completely different subject. Free Will means that God does not interfere with our actions and that we have the ability to do anything we want at anytime, and basically God can't do anything about it. That is unbiblical. As I stated in my previous argument, God hardened Pharoah's heart, which violated Pharoah's free will.

God doesn't predestine every person's actions, because then he would predestine sin, which would go against his character like my opponent stated. We do have a will, but FREE WILL is a whole different story which there is no biblical evidence for.

My opponent needs to provide Biblical Evidence for free will, because a 70 word argument isn't going to win him the debate. I have evidence for my case and so far he hasn't given any except his subjective stance.


Sunfire315

Con

I do not have time to post an argument this round.
Debate Round No. 2
jo021698j

Pro

Reasons voters should vote for me:

My opponent has given a total of 65 words for his argument and no citations and no thought put to this debate...

Enough said.
Sunfire315

Con

Hey. Rematch.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by jo021698j 1 year ago
jo021698j
Rematch Sounds Good. You start it this time and invite me and you can post your beginning argument from scratch.
Posted by jo021698j 1 year ago
jo021698j
Haha! It really is a hot topic right now! Very ready for this guy to respond!
Posted by TheRussian 1 year ago
TheRussian
This is funny lol I started one debate on the topic, and now there are debates and polls about it everywhere XD
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by lannan13 1 year ago
lannan13
jo021698jSunfire315Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Con did not post an argument this debate.