The Instigator
patriots16-0
Pro (for)
Losing
20 Points
The Contender
PreacherFred
Con (against)
Winning
26 Points

Predestination is TRUE

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/17/2008 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,633 times Debate No: 1902
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (11)

 

patriots16-0

Pro

Romans 9:10-19

10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

This why I believe in predestination now I want to ask what you think.
PreacherFred

Con

Suppose a man is drowning, but a sailor throws him a life preserver attached to a rope. The drowning man by himself was powerless to be saved. The sailor was his savior. But the man still had to choose to take hold and continuing holding on until he was in the boat.

So God is the source and provider of salvation. Salvation is by God's grace. But He has decreed that each individual MUST CHOOSE FOR HIMSELF whether or not to accept the salvation offered.

God has power to foreknow all things, but at times He chooses not to exercise that power. His power to foreknow is based on His power to do all things. But He does not do everything He has power to do.

Genesis 11:5 - At the tower of Babel, God "came down to see" what the people were doing.

Genesis 18:20,21 - God went to see what Sodom and Gomorrah were doing.

Genesis 22:12 - After Abraham had proved he was willing to offer Isaac, God said, "Now I know that thou fearest God ..."
Debate Round No. 1
patriots16-0

Pro

Thank you for accepting my argument and as another brother in Christ I hope we dont fight to much over theology when are real focus is saving others not to say that theology is not important though that is why there must be debates and arguments about matters that are facing the church like predestination.

Now to begin I would like to say that God chooses us out of his grace and he is not unfair for doing this you should no that God is always right in whatever he does no matter how we think of the situation that is before us. There are some problems wrong with your analogy you say that God throws out the raft and we ketch it well that is wrong because you are not adding into your analogy that we are dead in spirit. If a man is dead spirtually then how can we save ourselves thats right no one can if they are DEAD spirtually. So you know what happens then JESUS CHRIST our king takes out of death and makes us white as snow. So that we may go bear fruit and make desciples in his name. Praise the Lord. God has and will use the power to do that he says in JOHN 15:16 that "you did not choose me but I chose you to go out and bear good fruit". You see God is all powerful and he chooses us acccording tho his plan and that should be enough for us.

This is also another thing that people say is that well why does God blame us for not going to heaven well I say to you are you saying that God is wrong. Please if you believe that GOD is wrong not me but GOD use verses to back you up I know I did. This is not some thing that my parents have debated me into believing this is the real truth and not because I interperate it a certain way but because God has done written down that I WILL HAVE MEYCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY AND COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION. Please if you can tell me what this mean is the bible a toatal contradiction or am I proving a point that is correct.

PLEASE IN THE YOUR NEXT ARGUMENT ANSWER THIS QUESTION SOME WAY: I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and compassion on whom I have compassion please tell me what do you think that God means by that??
PreacherFred

Con

I am a little bit fuzzy on your purpose in proposing this debate. In actuality, I only took up your offer because you asked my opinion on the meaning of a certain biblical quote. As such, I really didn't see it as being a debate. The title of the debate would be hard to disprove, "Predestination is True" as there are elements of truth in most of the major religious concepts of the world. The Calvinistic concept of determinism (predestination) is widely held by many people. My problem with it is that it predisposes that man does not have free will. My concepts concerning free will are outlined in my debate: http://www.debate.org....

It seems that there are two views of predestination: conditional and unconditional. While you want to focus on just one biblical quote which seems to support the unconditional camp, there are other quotes which seem to support the conditional concept. I find it odd that you be allowed a quote to support your idea and yet deny me the same opportunity.

The biblical quote that you want to narrow this discussion to, on the surface, seems to also support a unconditional form of predestination but is subject to the interpretation of the reader. On the surface it seems that God is saying: "I will forgive and accept whomever I choose too" which one might deduce that means that we have no choice in the matter. However God has given us a pretty good idea on who He is going to choose. He sent His Son, Jesus to save all of mankind. He sent His Son to fulfill the Scriptures (Old Testament) and establish the New Testament. Forgiveness only works if the forgiveness is accepted! And, one must choose to accept it.

Suppose a man is drowning (spiritually dead), but a sailor (Jesus) throws him a life preserver (the message of love and kindness) attached to a rope (spiritual rebirth). The drowning man by himself was powerless to be saved (spiritually dead). The sailor (Jesus) was his savior. But the man still had to choose (exercise free will) to take hold and continue holding on until he was in the boat (eternal communion with the Father/heaven).

So God is the source and provider of salvation through Jesus. Salvation is by God's grace. But He has decreed that each individual MUST CHOOSE FOR HIMSELF whether or not to accept the salvation offered. While God, being omnipotent, may already know what our choice will be, He does not influence that choice!

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Throughout the New Testament God says He will have mercy on those that follow Jesus.)

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

(is tantamount to saying it doesn't matter what I do I am already saved or doomed .)

20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? (Amen!) "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "

(so, how can you, God, punish me? It's your fault! You made me this way!)

21Does not the potters have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

(Some will choose to follow Jesus, and some will not. While the outcome might already be known to God, it is not known to us. Man still must make the choice!)

My rule of life is very simple. What is the spirit of the Bible? What is the soup? Jesus said to love the Father and to love your fellow man the same way as you want to be loved. This is the true test, despite anything else that seems to be supported by an individual bible quote or two that has been taken out of context(the ingredients). I prefer the soup more than the individual ingredients.
Debate Round No. 2
patriots16-0

Pro

patriots16-0 forfeited this round.
PreacherFred

Con

I am disappointed that my opponent has failed to post a closing statement. As I indicated, it seemed that the opponent made a statement and asked for my opinion, which I complied with.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by aceofelves 9 years ago
aceofelves
PreacherFred, i saw that you commented on another of my debates. Thanks! I'm engaged in a debate concerning eternal security right now, be sure to check it out and comment/vote. I'm a strong supporter of Predestination. I became a Calvinist a few years ago and I'm still learning about it. I wish there was some way for members to communicate without debating or posting at the bottom of debates...
Posted by Renzzy 9 years ago
Renzzy
I disagree with you, PreacherFred, but I must vote for you. Pro did not make much of an argument.
Posted by Renzzy 9 years ago
Renzzy
preacherfred, I am personally a predestinarian and am particularly interested in this subject. I see that you are for free will, and having said that, I would be interested in what you have to say about these verses:

"And when He (Jesus) was alone, the Twelve and the others around Him asked Him about the parables.

"He told them 'The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables

"'so that they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never undestanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
Mark 4:10-12

This has the Son of God Himself saying that He speaks to some ppeople in parables so they WONT undestand and WONT be forgiven. This seems pretty straight forward. But I would be interested in you thought on the matter.

Thanks!
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by bsh1 3 years ago
bsh1
patriots16-0PreacherFredTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by studentathletechristian8 7 years ago
studentathletechristian8
patriots16-0PreacherFredTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Vote Placed by PreacherFred 7 years ago
PreacherFred
patriots16-0PreacherFredTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by charles15 8 years ago
charles15
patriots16-0PreacherFredTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Renzzy 8 years ago
Renzzy
patriots16-0PreacherFredTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by GrimParrot 9 years ago
GrimParrot
patriots16-0PreacherFredTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by padfo0t 9 years ago
padfo0t
patriots16-0PreacherFredTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by patriots16-0 9 years ago
patriots16-0
patriots16-0PreacherFredTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Off_the_Wall.Paul 9 years ago
Off_the_Wall.Paul
patriots16-0PreacherFredTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
patriots16-0PreacherFredTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03