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The Contender
Con (against)
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Predestination makes God look evil.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/30/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 563 times Debate No: 41437
Debate Rounds (2)
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Predestination makes God look like and "unfair judge". The Bible never says that Christ saves others and condemns others just because. The belief makes our God look careless and biased.


What is the definition of predestination you are using?
Debate Round No. 1


Predestination is the belief that before the world began, God chose (predestined) those who would achieve salvation and those who would not. However, God "takes no pleasure in the death of anyone", so He says, "Repent and live." (Ezekiel 18:32) If then God does not enjoy the death (or spiritual death) of anyone, does that not contradict predestination? If that is the case, there is a quite large contradiction in the Bible. For all I know, I could be predestined for eternal punishment. Therefore, free will does not exist. If that is the case, our faith in Christ is not authentic whatsoever. Instead, we are just God's puppets with no consiousness.


In the Apology of the Augsburg Confession ( AAC Article 2 ) . Germany:1518 It is written," [It is further taught that since the Fall of Adam all men who are naturally born are conceived and born in sin, i.e., that they all, from their mother"s womb, are full of evil desire and inclination, and can have by nature no true fear of God, no true faith in God.] 3] This passage testifies that we deny to those propagated according to carnal nature not only the acts, but also the power or gifts of producing fear and trust in God. For we say that those thus born have concupiscence, and cannot produce true fear and trust in God. What is there here with which fault can be found?' What the authors are saying here is what is called Original sin. It is explained in verses such as Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him,and Job 15:14 What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?" These verses explicitly show how humans are by nature sinful and unclean, and by this we know that we can do nothing to save ourselves. As it says in Ezekiel 37 "The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of the valley;[a] it was full of bones. 2 And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry. 3 And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord God, you know." 4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath[b] to enter you, and you shall live. 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the Lord." We are the dry bones. How can dry bones do anything but bake in the sun?

Original sin taken in its full context is caused by Adam ( Gen 3 ) in what is called the fall of man. In the fall man now is born sinful and unclean and can do nothing to save himself. Which means in application that our wills are tainted and that everything that we do is not considered good but as filthy rags. The (AAC Article 18) "Since there is left in human nature reason and judgment concerning objects subjected to the senses, choice between these things, and the liberty and power to render civil righteousness, are also left. For Scripture calls this the righteousness of the flesh which the carnal nature, i.e., reason, renders by itself, 71] without the Holy Ghost. Although the power of concupiscence is such that men more frequently obey evil dispositions than sound judgment. And the devil, who is efficacious in the godless, as Paul says, Eph. 2:2, does not cease to incite this feeble nature to various offenses....Therefore, although we concede to free will the liberty and power to perform the outward works of the Law, yet we do not ascribe to free will these spiritual matters, namely, truly to fear God, truly to believe God, truly to be confident and hold that God regards us, hears us, forgives us, etc. These are the true works of the First Table, which the heart cannot render without the Holy Ghost, as Paul says, 1 Cor. 2:14: The natural man, i.e., man using only natural strength, receiveth not the things 74] of the Spirit of God. (That is, a person who is not enlightened by the Spirit of God does not, by his natural reason, receive anything of God's will and divine matters.] And this can be decided if men consider what their hearts believe concerning God's will, whether they are truly confident that they are regarded and heard by God. Even for saints to retain this faith [and, as Peter says (1 Pet. 1:8), to risk and commit himself entirely to God, whom he does not see, to love Christ, and esteem Him highly, whom he does not see] is difficult, so far is it from existing in the godless. But it is conceived, as we have said above, when terrified hearts hear the Gospel and receive consolation [when we are born anew of the Holy Ghost]....75] Therefore such a distribution is of advantage in which civil righteousness is ascribed to the free will and spiritual righteousness to the governing of the Holy Ghost in the regenerate. For thus the outward discipline is retained, because all men ought to know equally, both that God requires this civil righteousness [God will not tolerate indecent, wild, reckless conduct], and that, in a measure, we can afford it. And yet a distinction is shown between human and spiritual righteousness, between philosophical doctrine and the doctrine of the Holy Ghost, and it can be understood for what there is need of the Holy Ghost. 76] Nor has this distribution been invented by us, but Scripture most clearly teaches it. Augustine also treats of it, and recently it has been well treated of by William of Paris, but it has been wickedly suppressed by those who have dreamt that men can obey God's Law without the Holy Ghost, but that the Holy Ghost is given in order that, in addition, it may be considered meritorious." This means that good works are separated into two categories one is civil and the other is spiritual. As heathens we can only do civil good works, and cannot do spiritual works. Once Christ saves us with his atoning blood then in this freedom from the law can we do spiritual good works, but only by him is this accomplished.

Now that I have laid that we cannot at all save ourselves and that humans have no free will except the will to sin I will explain predestination. The definition you gave,"God chose (predestined) those who would achieve salvation and those who would not." Is not the definition I operate off of here is the definition I use.Matthew Block."Why Lutheran Predessptination isn't Calvinist Predestination." First Thoughts. "The Scriptures do not teach that God has predestined to be damned those who will be damned. Indeed, as the Formula of Concord warns, "this would be to ascribe to God contradictory wills" (SD 11:35). God tells us in His Word that He wills the salvation of all; He cannot simultaneously have willed that some not be saved. It is clear then that, insofar as Lutherans teach predestination, we do not teach it in the way which the world understands the word. It should not be surprising, therefore, that since Lutherans teach a doctrine different than that which the world calls "predestination," we have not been associated with the term. The reason why is as simple as answering why Lutherans aren"t associated with the term "Calvinist" in public discourse: it"s because the word doesn"t describe who we are." Block makes a point to separate the Lutherans and Calvinists on this issue, because the bible only speaks on how God has predestined us to be with him, and says nothing of how he has predestined us for damnation. Romans 8:29 "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers"
Debate Round No. 2
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by WWJD1245 2 years ago
I have made the debate 2 rounds instead of 4.
Posted by kbub 2 years ago
I might have taken this up, but there are far too many rounds and too much time. I would not want this debate for weeks...
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by thett3 2 years ago
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: The structure of the debate made it difficult for Pro to win due to not being able to rebut Con's case. Cons arguments stand unrefuted, and easily over power Pros.