Princess Celestia is a tyrant/dictator
Debate Rounds (3)
I define a "tyrant" as a cruel and oppressive ruler.
For evidence the TV show trumps the comics and fanon is a non-starter.
I will argue this by using evidence of her conduct concerning her subjects, her governing structure, and her most trusted student.
This is for the lulz.
but lets get started
Princess Celestia is not a tyrant nor a dictator her and princess luna have saved the poneys from distruction there land was destroyed when Discord was in charge he alone brought darkness to the land but Princess Celestia and Princess luna saved all of the ponies and when Celestia banished luna to the moon she had to fend off and keep the magical land of equestria she was no where a dictator she helped them when they were strong on the other hand if it was king sombra he would hae been the dictator. So i say that Princess Celestia would have never been that cruel to her fellow ponies and friends.
A dictator brings sadness to the land but she brought happiness and love to all of the ponies.
Now back to you
btw i thank you again for this wonderful debate
http://www.merriam-webster.com.... Using these two elements that define a tyrant, we must first ask: does she exercise absolute power? It"s pretty evident that she does. She is the sovereign of Equestria, a position that according to EP1S1, she had held for just over a thousand years. There is no evidence of any sort of parliamentary checks on or judicial balancing of her decisions. The only challenges to her authority thus far have come from outside sources and were not domestic political challenges. She is the monarch, or diarch, and her authority is absolute.
Having established that she wields absolute power we find that the crux of the matter is whether or not she is a benevolent dictator or a tyrant. Is she cruel and/or unfair in her rule?
Yes she is.
We can examine her conduct using how she treats her subjects. Is she just and measured or is she capricious and cruel? The first extended sequence we have interaction between her and her subjects is in "A Bird in the Hoof." Before this she made cameos and last minute appearances to congratulate ponies on a job well done (more on that later), but in this episode we get see how ponies react to her in person. What we see is not reassuring. She attends a brunch/tea at the local bakery in Ponyville hosted by the Cakes at SugarCube Corner. How do the Cakes react to her? They are terrified. They run around frantically attempting to make sure absolutely nothing goes wrong and bend over backward to do things like fill her teacup after every sip. Witness the sequence where they hover over her cup waiting to refill it and kowtow to the Monarch. The Princess seems embarrassed by all this, but that does not seem to stop any of her subjects" genuflections in the least. This is because it is learned behavior. The Cakes fear her. If she was the omni-benevolent ruler that we are meant to believe she is, why would the Cakes worry? There"s not any evidence that they are naturally nervous or fearful creatures, so this fear of reprisal must come from somewhere.
The idea of learned behavior ties into Twilight Sparkle and how the Princess deals with her. Twilight Sparkle has apparently lived in isolation as a prot"g" of the Princess since childhood. In the first episode we see that she spends most of her life studying in the library and ignores social interaction. She could be a natural shut-in, however there is something quite sinister about her mentor never mentioning that she should go be social able until it is absolutely necessary to ensure national security. Perhaps the Princess just wasn"t paying attention to her most faithful student. Yet, if we go forward to the same "Bird in the Hoof" episode we hear something much more sinister about the nature of the Princess. After her friend Fluttershy absconds with the Princess"s pet bird, Twilight begins to obsess over what will happen to her claiming the princess will either "banish [her] from Equestria, or put [her] in a dungeon, or banish [her] and then put [her] in a dungeon in the place that she banishes [her]." To be fair, Twilight is a spazz and she admits that she doesn"t know exactly what the Princes will do, however she also knows the Princess better than any pony in town. She would not even mention these things if they were not in realm of possibility. Why would she even conceive of banishment if she had never seen her do it? Why would she bring up dungeons unless dungeons both existed and she had seen the princess sentence someone to them? She needs to have a frame of reference for the mere existence of these possibilities. These are learned behaviors and if they weren"t something that had happened before for an infraction of a similar level she would not even be able to consider them. The level of fear she exhibits only confirms that draconian punishments are an occurrence in Equestria.
This brings us to "Lesson Zero", the infamous Twilight freak out episode. Upon realizing that she will be late in submitting her weekly report, Twilight begins a journey down a spiral of madness which culminates in her using mind control magic on others. Just when everything falls completely out of control, the Princess shows up (for once) to fix everything with her magic and to dress her student down. Twilight"s friends intercede on her behalf to spare her punishment and Princes Celestia spreads out the punishment among all six in the form of essay writing. There are a few problems here:
1)How does the Princess know to show up? Informants. She has a network of informants spying and reporting on her student"s activities. We can refer to this particular Quisling as "Spike." She admits to this.
2)Again, learned behavior. Why does Twilight think the Princes will bring her back to the city away from her friends and send her back 12 grades to Kindergarten? She"s seen her do something similar.
3)The interaction with the other Ponies. They all rush in and beg to the Princess forgive Twilight and attempt to accept responsibility for their friend"s actions. At no point does the Princess show to them any sign of remorse for creating the problem that is Twilight"s neurosis. In fact, she dodges all responsibility and seizes the opportunity to punish everyone else; now they have to submit reports too.
4)That spell. Why, out of all the times that they have been in trouble, does the Princess pick this time to take personal action? Why does she do a complete 180 in regards as to how she interacts with Twilight and then her friends by pouncing on an opportunity to deflect blame. Most importantly, why does she never mention the specific thing that Twilight did wrong? The answer is that Twilight has a date rape spell in her repertoire and apparently it "works every time." The ability of powerful unicorns or alicorns to fiddle with the brains of others is a secret that the Princess does not want getting out. Perhaps she has a spell that she can use to make everyone love Big Sister and cement her power. At the very least she doesn"t want anyone to know that someone taught her most precious student the date rape spell that she has practice in using it.
Finally there is the callous indifference to other ponies that the Princess shows to others throughout the series. This is much like the problem of evil: if God is all powerful and all loving, why does he not stop evil? The existence of evil shows that he lacks at least one of these qualities as he either is incapable of stopping evil or does not care to do so. There are counters to this argument, but we don"t have to go nearly so far with Celestia. She has demonstrated that she is the most power entity in their world,yet she always seems to find a way to avoid any action or responsibility. She almost lets the Wonderbolts die (twice) and her plan for every crisis and villain is to throw her interns at the problem despite being the most power pony there is. Only once has she ever faced a foe head on, and that was only because it was both staring her in the face and upstaging her at a wedding.
Princess Celestia is the most powerful pony on the planet. Her subjects recognize her power and have demonstrated that they fear her. Even her most faithful/brainwashed prot"g" fears her wrath for the slightest of offenses. She knows of magic that can alter emotions and guards the secret jealously. She lazily sends her intern to fight battles she could easily win herself, and will not lift a finger (err"hoof) to save any of her subjects when there is the remotest possibility that someone else could do it instead. She is callous and indifferent to the fears and suffering of her people, and when this is combined with wielding absolute power one can only conclude that she is indeed a tyrant.
So i still stand that the beautiful Princess Celestia was and never will be a tyrant/dictator
Thanks for this wonderful debate
Vote for CAHAL101
"Celestia's priority first and foremost is her subjects." Is it really? I'm having a hard time seeing any evidence of this. As I stated earlier, she apparently wields not just absolute political power, but also an enormous amount of practical (magical) power? How does she use this to the benefit of her subjects? She doesn't; in fact she will try to avoid helping her subjects even when they need her most. She consistently puts her subjects in unnecessary danger when she could easily solve a dangerous situations with a flick of her magic god-pony horn. Consider the following:
"Dragonshy." When a dangerous dragon causes some minor air pollution, Princess Celestia sends six untrained teenagers to deal with the problem. She does nothing.
"Sonic Rainboom." With multiple ponies falling towards their deaths, the Princess watches from the stands and does nothing. She could use her magic to safely move them somewhere else, or fly to them herself, yet she does nothing.
"Return of Harmony 1 & 2". She lets her student and her friends match wits with an ancient and powerful foe that they have no experience in dealing with. Her help is limited to trolling her student by throwing her words back at her via mail (Oh, you"re quitting on your friends? I guess these letters make you a liar).
"Luna Eclipsed." Her sister comes from thousand years of solitude, spends a year in the castle, and then goes out amongst the hoi polloi. Princess Celestia apparently never tells her that language and customs evolved. She also spent her sister"s banishment allowing her subjects to build a narrative and holiday around her sister being a monster. She does not stop it.
"Secret of My Excess." Spike turns into a Kaiju and begins rampaging through town. The Wonderbolts are sent to deal with it (because when the military has a problem, they always send the acrobatic demonstration team). They nearly die and the Princess does nothing. I would note that you can see Canterlot from Ponyville, so a 15 story behemoth running around is almost certainly visible " where else did the Wonderbolts come from?
"Magical Mystery Cure." Demonstrates ability to raise others to god-hood. Does this for one pony ever; that pony being the one she has systematically brainwashed to love her.
"Twilight"s Kingdom 1 & 2." When faced with a powerful threat she lets a duplicitous semi-ally try to stop it instead of dealing with it herself. When that does not work, she literally abdicates the ability to be responsible for anything and transfers power to her student. Allows most junior alicorn to take on threat. Princess Celestia does nothing.
The point is that she never uses her power to benefit anyone, and that she ignores the real danger her subjects are in all the time. The only time she does intervene and use her power to fight a foe it was because it was both literally staring her in the face and ruining her role as master of ceremonies for a wedding (The one time she intervened non-villain affairs was to cover for Twilight's use of the date rape spell). One could make a case that she is giving others the opportunity to shine and develop, but when someone's very life hangs in the balance it is reckless and shows a depraved indifference to the mortality of her people.
Seriously, she's fooled everyone into thinking that she moves the sun, that the changing of the seasons require their labor, and that the water cycle involves pegasis-powered cyclones. None of that is to their benefit. It has to be some sort of joke that god ponies play on the proles.
Second: "I think she sees her job not as some divine right or entitlement." I don't think there's any evidence for this either. There's no egalitarianism in equestrian political structures. Alicorns are on the top, no doubt, and unicorns are certainly a close second. Consider what kind of ponies can go to special school and become her protege to reach the height of mortal power (and in one case even higher); only unicorns. Another clue is to consider the subtext of the Hearth's Warming tradition myth. Sure the main point is about working together, but the pageant was also about how when left to their own devices and leaders ponies will be reduced to squabbling and possible death. The underlying point is that ponies need her (and her sister) to rule them because normal ponies are bad at it. This is a propaganda piece that she forces high profile celebrities (the Mane six) to take part in for the masses. That is some serious hubris, but it makes sense. Compared to everyone else, she IS a god. Of course she has a divine right because she is divine. No one else can hold a hereditary position (like hers) if that office holder never dies. She's already over a thousand years old; think anyone will replace her? She shaped a society governed by a hereditary monarchy where the monarch is an immortal deity; how is that not entitled?
In summation, at no point does the princess demonstrate that she is works more for her subjects than herself. In fact her actions demonstrate that when given the opportunity to help her subjects while they face mortal danger she will punt almost every single time. For some reason her subjects, to include the ones who know and trust her best, live in mortal fear of her wrath. If she was all loving and benevolent there would be no history of her using draconian punishment, thus no reason to fear her. But they do fear her, and when she notices their fear she plays jokes on them. That is malevolence. She also runs a society governed by a super minority of extremely powerful magic users that hold officer for life and show no signs of ever dying. There are no checks or balances, no parliamentarians or supreme courts, only the the absolute monarchs (diarchs), This is the definition of dictatorship. She combines this with a sort of "magic supremacy" where she elevates one race above the others based on both their physical similarity to her and ability to use a date rape spell.
That is what a tyrant does.
To conclude Princess Celestia is hope for there land who brings happiness to the ponies makes them feel loved safe they trust her not to do bad and she is there when they need the help.
just look at hitler he was a dictator he did bad things and what dose Princess Celestia do she helps them hitler used his people for war he was the dictator and Princess Celestia would never come close to what he was.
Again i thank you again for making this debate I would love to do this again sometime debating that is.
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Fellow bronie is out :-)
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