The Instigator
smith76
Pro (for)
Losing
47 Points
The Contender
candice
Con (against)
Winning
52 Points

Pro Abortion

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/25/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 6,455 times Debate No: 2908
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (69)
Votes (32)

 

smith76

Pro

I am pro-choice, and want to argue with a pro-lifer. Anyonw is welcome to accept, but please dispense with the typical cliched arguements.
candice

Con

Hopefully, fighting for the lives of innocent human beings is not SO clich´┐Ż. Regular arguments obviously aren't good enough for you, but I'll try to keep you refreshed in my arguments. Since you've not given an explanation on why you support abortion, I'll go ahead and explain why I do not.

Abortion is one of the most heinous and selfish acts a woman can commit. Deciding that a human life is not worth continuing because of your schedule, is horrible and should be illegal. Unless recomended by a Doctor because of a threat on your life. Anti-Life arguments supporting abortion include rape, or incest victims. Psychologically it would be hard to carry a baby that was conceived violently and was unwanted. That doesn't mean that it's right to kill that baby. Only 1% of abortion's reported last year where related to incest.(according to a Nation wide clinical study by Forrest J.D. and Torres, A. ). Even if there is incest involved the chances of physical or mental deformity are low, unless there has been multiple generations of incenstual practice. Perhaps instead of killing an innocent child, a rape victim could carry the baby, and pick a wonderful adoptive family and consider this something good coming out of a bad experience.

So, one of the biggest argument's about abortion is: When exactly do you become a person? It is automatically clear that at the EXACT time of conception,(when the sperm fertilizes the egg) that this new creation is a person. You can ultimately tell what an organism is because of there genetics. A one second old fetus has the genetic make up of a human being. Just because this little embryo doesn't think or feel yet, killing it is still murdering a human being. If one were to kill someone in their sleep, when they weren't expecting it and couldn't feel it the victim would still have been murdered.

I've covered incest, and rape. Now what about those women who are having unprotected sex? They're promiscuity has now gotten them pregnant. What in a sane person's mind would justify killing something that would bring adoptive parent's such happiness, because a woman just doesn't feel like being pregnant? It's wrong. Excepting the consequences of one's actions is part of life. If you get pregnant,(however young or old you might be) that baby depends on you to be good to it and bring it into the world. You have a life, in your hands. Being a woman, I value being able to enjoy equality, and making my own decisions. Women can choose to use birth control. Or, they can choose not to. You can also choose not to have sex untill your mature enough to exept the responsibilities it might bring (aka a baby). Just because something is going to interfere with what you previously had planed, you can't KILL IT!

Abortion is the actual killing and extracting of a human baby out of it's mother. This is mostly done with a vacuum. Or, in some cases a partial birth abortion where the baby is delivered and then killed. Either way, these practices are unethical, and embarrassing for a moral and advanced Nation such as ours. America's constitution protects all of the Nation's citizens' individual rights. Nowhere in these document's does it okay the killing of fetus's. This is a barbaric and embarrassing practice and should be illegal.
Debate Round No. 1
smith76

Pro

I will first address your arguements then move on to my own case:

<>

I fail to see how a woman wanting an abortion to prevent a child from living with a terminal illness is "selfish". This statement if very narrow-minded and without warrant. Believe it or not, the vast majority of abortions are not performed because of selfish reasons.

<>

Two points. Based on this logic, a seed is a tree, and if you squash a redwood tree seed you are committing a federal offense because the giant redwood tree is federally protected. God forbid you accidentally shuash a redwood tree seed in your world, because you would equate that to cutting down a full grown redwood tree. My second point on this logic: who are you to say that a one second old zygote is a human being? What ives you that right. Until it is written law, this is debateable. Even the top scientists disagree on this point, and this is the crux of my arguement.

You make a point about unprotected sex and blame women for their own lack of self control and continue to punish them by forcing them to take care of a child (despite the situation they are bringind that child up in).

Here is a statistic for you: over half of the women that get an abortion do so because the contraceptive they were using failed (according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute). So, since you do not give a source for your claim that the vast majority are just getting out of their responsibility and they have to be punished for that, your point is thrown out the window because there is no fact to it.

If you want to punish a mother for having sex without a condem, dont use that baby as the instrument. That is selfish and narrowminded. You are forcing women to have babies that may have terminal illness that will live a painful life and possibly die a very young age. You are fporcing babies to be born into horrible conditions such as households that are below the poverty line and not able to financialy support that child. You are forcing babies to be born to single parent households. You are forcing 14 year old girls to take care of a child.

Here are yet more statistics for you: 9 out of 10 pregnancies are terminated within the first trimester, partial birth abortion (as you allude to) is illegal and thus not within the scope of the arguement, the abortion rate is declining due to emergency contraceptive use. Based on your logic, you would make emergency contraceptive illegal because a one second old egg is a human.

Here is my arguement:

Since there is not a universally accepted time marker that legally and socially signifies the begining of a human life, we, as individuals, must look to our own moral standards to make that determination on our own, in private. This being said, I am pro-choice because I am completely against the government dictating morals in any way. Some may say that this arguement is absurd because it is immoral to kill a person, and the government enforces that morality. The difference is that legally and socially, every murder vitcim in the United States is legally and socially recognized as a human being, and thus protected by law. The United States does not yet have a legal definition for the begining of life, that being said, there is no legal precedent that would determine whether life begins in the first, second, or third trimester. Yes, the state governments do have varrying legal definitions that deal with this issue, and that is legally acceptable, but for the United States government to impose a ban accross the board on abortion (as has been advocated by Gov. Mike Huckabee), a national legal definition that establishes when exactly life begins must firet be passed. Until this happens, the government should not ban abortion because it is encoraching upon the right of the individual to make a moral judgement call on their own.

I pose this question to my opponent:

Who defines when life begins? The government? You? A moral expert? A scientist? Or, should a decision of this magnitude be left up to the person that will have to live with it for the rest of their lifes? Which sounds more moral and right? A government beuracrat, or a woman who will have to look at herself everyday in the mirror and remember that decision?

In summation, you, I, and the government have NO right at all to dictate morals to another person. None what so ever. If you had it your way, you would have every abortion doctor convicted and thrown in jail as a murderr, and every woman that had an abortion thrown in jail as an accessory to murder. You say that women should be punished because of their sexual habits, and that the means of punishment should be a child. This is not right, and not moral.
candice

Con

-I fail to see how a woman wanting an abortion to prevent a child from living with a terminal illness is "selfish". This statement if very narrow-minded and without warrant. Believe it or not, the vast majority of abortions are not performed because of selfish reasons.

In my previous argument, I specifically said "unless recommended by a Doctor."

Why women have abortions:
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient). (planned parenthood)

<>

A human baby is not just a seed, it's a seed that has sprouted! Will that redwood tree not grow, to be big? If you pluck a germinating seed and rip off those new root's you have killed a tree. Is a small child's life not worth as much as one full grown? A baby is beautiful and the growth of a fetus should be revered as special and worth respect and safety. American laws should protect helpless baby in-uteri.

<>

Never, did I EVER type the words punish, or force. I think if you don't believe keeping the baby is an option for you, adoption is the best choice. There are thousands of parents sitting right now waiting for a baby to love. It is not my place to blame, never would I condemn someone. If you don't think your situation in life is suitable for a child, give that child a life you never had! A healthy, happy adoptive family that will love the baby as a beautiful gift. That is what a child is, a beautiful creation of life. Not a burden, punishment, or black spot on someone's character. You'll be a stronger person for owning up to responsibility and doing what is right.

<>

This website say's nothing about the proper use of those birth controls, and if those women were completely following the directions for intended use. Accident or not, a baby deserves to live. Also, the ultimate birth control is abstinence. That NEVER fails. (Unless rape, but I'm addressing promiscuity at this point).

<>

Again, I never said that a mother should carry and keep a baby as a punishment for getting pregnant. Adoption is the best choice in this instance.

<>

Just because your baby isn't being scraped out... a pill that kills your baby is still an abortion.

The policies of this Nation, are created around morals. Morals are a set of belief's and laws, are enforcements of beliefs. Our Government has the power to enforce laws. Your biological life starts at the time of conception. The constitution should be amended to make abortion illegal. We have the right to be happy, unless in the quest of happiness it hurts someone else. Killing someone would indeed be put under this category. I would not have all the mother's that have had an abortion thrown in jail, nor the practicing doctors. The practices would stop. Any abortions not needed medically (because of life threatening reasons) would then be condemned as law breakers.

<>

You stated this opinion, and then latter on in the paragraph you state:

<>

So, are you trying to say that one cannot state opinions of morals unless they are your own? These excerpts from your statements sure look like your expressing my opinions being wrong because their not moral. That being said, as American's we can express our own morals. We cannot kill at will.
Debate Round No. 2
smith76

Pro

<>

No, you didnt. You said, "Unless recomended by a Doctor because of a threat on your life." This means that unless the woman will die, she must have the baby, all other variables are ignored. Never mind that she was raped, it was incestuously conceived, will be born with a terminal illness that will mean it lives in agony for its short life.

<< 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).>>

What you fail to realize is that there are far more reasons than "social" reasons. Like economic. What if the mother does not have insurance? Who must pay for all the prenatal care? The government? Yeah, theres a great ides, force the government to pay for the promiscuity (as you claim it is) of others. Again, where are you getting your statistics? I dont see a website, or other cited source.

<>

There is no point in my arguing against a theoretical, but I will say that you are wrong on this. First off all, a germinating seed does not have roots, second of all, no, it is not the same as cutting down a 200 foot tall tree, its just not. God forbid someone accidentally step on a tiny seed sprout in your forest, because they just murdered a tree, send 'em to jail!!

<>

I didnt say that you said "punish" or "force". I simply said that based on your line of arguement, a woman must accept responsibility for her actions, if that does not mean reap the consequences than i dont know what does. Its the exact same point. Although, how can a woman be held responsible for actions that she had no control over? Failed contraceptive, rape? How can you force a woman to take responsibility for things that she had no say in? Alsoo, does not a man play just a large a role as a woman does in conception? What if the man walks out on her (which happens a lot)? Should he be tracked down and chained to her until she gives birth?

<>

Here is the web address: http://women.webmd.com...
"Intended use" Get real, who doesnt know how to use a condom? Take a pill? Stop trying to find tittle technicalities to rationalize your moral arguement. Contraceptives fail, even the makers of them will tell you that. Birth control is only 99.8% effective, the drug companies have to disclose that. So the arguemtnt that they were not used properly is bogus.

<>

I dont know what world you live on, but down here on planet earth, atleast the United States, abstinence ceased to exist when the birth control pill was introduced. Again, get real. People are not going to wake up one day and decide to live a perfect sex free life only out of fear of pregnancy. Its not going to happen, and this is a useless arguement.

<>

This is perhaps your most absurd arguement. The only reason that abortion rates have severely declined is due to the use of emergency contraceptives. Odds are, the sperm has not had time to fretilize the egg (which by your moral standard is the time of human life comencement).

<>

Really? Last time I checked, invading a country for no reason other than imperialistic gain was not moral. Domestic policies are not made out of morals. There is no master book of morals to reference. National policies are based off the Constitution, and the interests of the people. Nothing More. Especially not morals. Is it moral to spy on an innocent person for no reason? No, but our current policy says you can.

<>

Can you please quote the section of the United States Code that confirms this statement? No? Well, how about the Constitutional ammendment? No? Hmm. Looks like you are the only one that agrees with this statement. The government doesnt, the constitution doesnt, the scientific community doesnt. Who does?

<>

But its NOT. Until it is, the government has no right to stop it.

<>

Oh, but you would. By making abortion to be considered murder, anyone who attains an abortion is by legal definition an accessory to murder, and the doctor a murderer. That is the problem with the pro-lifers, they dont want to admit this, nor will they ever find a politician in this country to support this fact.

<>

Thats not what I meant, I meant that your statements may be moral to YOU, but ther is no book of morals for us to reference. Because of this, you have no right to assert your personal morals over another human being.

My point is this..................

When you take away all your emotionally charged rhetoric, all your warrantless claims, all your statements that a 1 second fertilized egg (scientifically defined as a zygote) is just as human as I am, you are left with a serious flaw in your arguement that you refuse to address: There is no universally (by this I mean in the United States) accepted legal and social definition of the comencement of life. You, for some reason, have failed to address this point. Until either the Constitution is ammended, or the entire scientific community agrees when this point is, and is subsequently accepted by the people, the government has ni right to impose the morals of one person over another person. A decision of this magnitude should be left up to the person that will have to live with it for the rest of their life.

I will again pose this question to my opponent, and assert that if she can not answer this question, I should win this debate: State and cite the definition of the comencement of life (what time does life begin) that is accepted legally and socially by the people (the vast majority) of this great country. Until you can do this, you have no arguement. Remember, what should happen may really be what should happen, but until it happens, it is not worth debating.
candice

Con

Where is your statistic of how many babies are aborted because of a terminal illness? Who's to say a baby born with AIDS, that get's the proper medicine won't do great things in this world? And very much appreciate being alive. Is your self worth defined by how long you live? Or in your eyes, how big you are. One look, or grasp of the finger from a baby can show someone that the world is good , and there are wonderful things worth living for.

<>

The adopting parents will pay for all medical bills, even buy the pregnant woman maternity clothes! What's wrong with our country helping a mother who needs financial care? Are you insinuating that the people who are poor don't deserve medical help? We live in a great country that is capable of such things. That's why we are a humane, and advanced Nation! You should be proud we can help women in this way.

<>

I specifically stated these statistics were from planned parenthood.

<>

Germinating seeds do have roots, and here's the link to a picture for you.
http://www.alamy.com...

A baby is not a redwood tree. It is a baby. Please don't put words into my mouth about wishing people to be thrown in jail. I just want human life to be respected, and protected by law.

So when did being an American mean that we don't have to face responsibilities of life? We live in one of the greatest countries in the world. This doesn't mean that we can use our democratic system to do things that people know isn't the right thing to do. I'm all for freedom of speech, and am glad of my ability to make my own decisions. Yet when it comes to the killing of human life, we must put an end to it! As a country, a culture, and a people. Whenever you believe a human life starts, you must all agree that the life sacrificed would other wise be a person in our community, being loved by adoptive parents! You see something easily discarded and easily forgotten. I see something helpless that deserves attention, and protection. Plus, for those who see what's going on to speak out against the killing of innocents.

Women forget to take birth control's all the time. Every woman using birth control does not use it correctly, or religiously.

There is no laws against abortion. What I am stating is that there should be. Life starts, when two people make a human zygote. This zygote will be a human. A human that should not be thrown in the trash can after being scraped out of the one person that should care about it more than anyone in the world. Living in a democracy, everyone won't agree with the other. How do you think the babies being aborted would vote?

<>

As an American, I pride myself in being able to state my opinions. Also, trying to make my country as wonderful as I think it could be. All American's should take a stand on what they think should happen. Not just stand by and wish it would. My opinion will always be worth debating. Human life will always be worth fighting for. A woman not wanting her parents to know, not wanting stretch marks, or wanting to continue using drugs get abortions. Don't be diluted by the few accounts of women getting an abortion to free their minds of sick babies, or babies conceived by rape. How many babies should be sacrificed because of possibilities? Possibilities of being sick, or deformed. What of the possibilities of what those babies will do for those around them. For our country? What about the love they'll feel. The laugh's they'll laugh. Ending an innocent babies life should be no one's option. Abortion is wrong, and should be illegal.
Debate Round No. 3
69 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by puppyluvz 8 years ago
puppyluvz
con wins hands-down! con had much better arguments, and convinced me much more!
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
that's ASCII... of a bar graph?
Posted by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
That didn't quite work out...
Posted by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
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Posted by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
Don't mind me, just using this as a test place
Posted by smith76 9 years ago
smith76
That is all that is needed, but I sincerely you are not just saying that as a personal attack on my opions. If I really didnt convince you, then by all means, vot against me. But do not do so out of spite, as that is petty and childish. And I sincerely hope you are not petty and childish. Are you?
Posted by Rousseau 9 years ago
Rousseau
Pro didn't convince me, which is apparently all that is needed for a decision.

Vote Con!
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"The mother's actions (again, this just applies to sex w/ consent) deliver the consequenses in the case of pregnancy.
"

No, the actions of the sperm and zygote do. The sperm finds the egg and enters it. The resulting zygote finds the uterine wall and attaches itself.
Posted by coolman 9 years ago
coolman
In the handicap example, did you DO something to provoke the attack by the schizophrenic? That is still the difference here, the mother's behavior is the primary cause of the pregnancy. But let's say the handicap person can't be blamed for his actions, the victim of the attack should be able to self-defend, because their own actions didn't cause the attack.

I'm sure you can probably come up with some outrageous example of a situation when the 'victim' provokes the attack but should still have the right to self-defense without any of the blame befalling him/herself. But you can invent an example for anything you want. Abortion due to non-forced sexual behavior however, is very real, very common, and in my opinion, very wrong.
Posted by coolman 9 years ago
coolman
Well if you don't want to get raped, maybe you shouldn't walk into a dark alley. It's not a guarantee that you'll get raped, but the chances are better than if you stuck to the main walkways. I'm not saying that decision should excuse the rapist of charges, but again I'll reiterate that a rapist is very different than a baby. The rapist's behavior is what delivered the consequences in the dark alley example. The mother's actions (again, this just applies to sex w/ consent) deliver the consequenses in the case of pregnancy.
32 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by RedDawnJensen 8 years ago
RedDawnJensen
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