The Instigator
lind010
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
imabench
Con (against)
Winning
19 Points

Pro-Choice is the only choice

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
imabench
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/16/2012 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,545 times Debate No: 22882
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (25)
Votes (7)

 

lind010

Pro

There is so much debate about abortion, PRO-Choice, or Pro-life. When really the fact is that abortion is the individual woman's choice. The sin of Abortion was only brought about by the Catholic religion, and is only taboo in our western culture. However worldwide abortion is accepted and even needed.
imabench

Con

I accept this debate and will argue that pro-choice isnt the "only" reason and that there are significant reasons to support the pro-life stance

Other than that,



Debate Round No. 1
lind010

Pro

First off, I would like to open with a bit of a scenario. Two people, a couple, over 21, in a relationship for more than 5 years have sex. Both however are in poor financial situations and only can support themselves, but just barely. The mother is already in loads of debt, and could not get any compensation from the government, and has no credit, the father is in a similar situation. Neither of them have health insurance either. The woman gets pregnant. Now she is faced with the choice, either get a abortion or have the child. If she has the child she would not be able to raise it. She would not be able to provide it with proper nutrition, and has no family that will help her take care of the child, the child would grow up either miserable, or die at a young age. If she does have the baby and puts it up for adoption "The estimated average cost of a delivery alone is $6,000 – $8,000 for a low risk pregnancy. And the cost can increase significantly for a high risk pregnancy."(http://www.americanpregnancy.org...) without insurance that would be impossible for the couple to even afford. At planned parenthood an abortion costs much less. They could try a natural birth on their own, but at a huge risk for both the mother and the child. In a case such as this without pro-choice this couple (or at least this woman) is trapped, she is forced into more debt, and the child will eventually inherit that debt as well. Right off the bat you still give the child no chance at lift. In Japan and non-western societies, babies are not even considered people before they are 3 years old. This is because the death rate of the children are so high, and common, and so little people can even afford a child without sacrificing themselves and the whole family. Abortion is most common their. and in some cases more common than an actual birth. And among Alaskan Eskimos abortions are done even after the child is born. Either the child suffers, or another child gets a chance when the family is ready.
imabench

Con

Naturally the pro made a scenario geared towards justifying being pro choice. The argument over Pro choice isnt about whether or not it is economical though, its about morals.

I will be focusing on Late term abortion as my reason for why pro-choice isnt the only choice.
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THOSE WHO ARE YOUNG AT HEART,

STILL HAVE THEIR INNOCENCE,

OR HATE SEEING DEAD BABIES

SHOULD NOT CONTINUE

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Im serious
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Ok, here how late term abortions are performed.
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Basically a fetus is aborted by tearing it to shreds with a pair of scissors and then pulled out of the Vagina.

The worst part though for me is that the head is crushed and then yanked out.....

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Dead baby picture coming up, you may want to close your eyes and then scroll down to the next round

Those brave enough to look should still make sure they havent eaten anything recently....
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Thats a dead baby :(

Heres a dead baby's arm


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Pro choice is not the "only" choice. If the images above upset you then there is a good chance that a third trimester abortion would be very traumatic and unethical.

I am against late term abortion because at that point the child is very much human, it has all the functioning organs, brainpower, and characteristics of any normal human, meaning it is indeed a human.

Early first term abortion though, when you abort when the fetus isnt a fetus and just a glob of cells, then pro choice has a very legit argument and is a good stance. But when you are so late into the pregnancy that the child is human in any way you can imagine, then pro life is a choice. Because then it does become murder vs the woman's right to choose, and if the woman was really concerned about the economic conditions for raising the child then she would have aborted a long time ago, not when the baby was a week away from being born.

Pro life is a choice, it does depend on the circumstances, but if the Pro is going to gear his scenario for pro choice then Ill do the same for pro-life.

In late term scenarios the baby is human in nearly every way, making abortion very comparable to murder. If you dont think late term babies are human though then you wouldnt have been even mildly upset at the pictures above....

Pro life is a choice
Debate Round No. 2
lind010

Pro

I will agree that abortion is gruesome tho the pictures did not disturb me (i am a makeup artist and therefore desensitzed by blood) however tell me, if a child was to be born with a birth defect that was surely to end its life, would it be better for the child to be aborted before it has the ability to consiously understand pain? Or would it be better to birth the child and let it suffer in some hope of a miracle? If the child dies it dies more quickly and peacefully in the womb. In fact children die in the womb during late pregnancy all the time, if the life of the child needs to be taken in hope of giving the next child a better life than why birth this child only to suffer?
imabench

Con

" if a child was to be born with a birth defect that was surely to end its life, would it be better for the child to be aborted before it has the ability to consiously understand pain"

Is this taking into account that fetuses diagnosed with birth defects can often have been misdiagnosed?
http://www.lifesitenews.com...

^ 40% of ectopic pregnancies are misdiagnosed and then when aborted through chemicals the fetus is alive but severely deformed to to the attempted abortion, all over a misdiagnosis

http://newspano.com...



^ case of misdiagnosis over ectopic pregnancy

Its not just limited to those type of misdiagnosis's either, babies are diagnosed to have certain ailments that are not lethal at all but could still be aborted. 90% of all babies predicted to be born with down syndrome are aborted even though people with down syndrome can live perfectly healthy and normal lives. Some of those babies are later shown to not have had Down Syndrome at all.
http://carijean.hubpages.com...

If the child has a birth defect that could end its life should it be aborted? I can see why it would be ethical so yes. Does this happen frequently? It most surely does not. Children can be born with birth defects, but these birth defects can be misdiagnosed and not even be lethal or painful at all to the child who would otherwise have been aborted.

Does that mean that after 7 months the mother can still decide to have an abortion?

Yes

But does that mean that society has to agree with that choice no matter what? Does that mean that people do not have a legitimate claim to want to advocate that the right of the child to live has a GREATER say then the right of the woman to choose, after deciding to NOT have an abortion for 7 months and then suddenly change her mind and have her say be greater than that of the childs right to live days away from being born?

Certainly not

Pro choice isnt the only choice, Pro-lifer's have a very legitimate reason to want to advocate the right of the child to live and they shouldnt be told that they just have to agree with Pro-choicers and not be able to have any contrary opinion over the matter. There are reasons to be Pro-life, and thats what this debate is about, whether or not people have any reason to be pro-life
Debate Round No. 3
lind010

Pro

You ask for a ligament reason why a mother can chose to abort other than the fact that its the individual woman's right to chose what she does with her body. A good example of why Pro-choice is the best choice is not just for the woman but for the rest of the world is the overwhelming problem witch grows everyday, is but of course Overpopulation.
http://www.overpopulation.org...

Over population is Dangerously increasing in the US and worldwide. Speaking objectively a woman whom decides last minute to abort a fetus has the right to (1) if they come into a financial crisis, and (2) it would benefit the population in all if more fetus's would be aborted, and (3) if the child came down with a defect or a problematic disorder. Over population is a problem because it would bring out a large loss in human natural resources. More people mean more mouths to feed, more energy being used, more cars being driven and more money being used up. We have not had any global crisis's recently that have thinned out populations and with our increase in medicine and scientific knowledge the avg age of death is much higher than it was in past civilizations. Birth control is one way of preventing un-neccessary children, but in a late trimester if a mother decides they are not competent to be a parent, then the child being born would not be a burden on society rather than a child that was born and raised well, that they benefited their community and their family.
Is there a moral question that goes into abortion? Of course, even by saying that it is wrong to abort a fetus that is 9 months along, is putting morals into the equation. However it should rely on the moral values of the individual. The right to chose from an objective standpoint relies on the individuals choice. Religion is the factor that makes the moral question come in to play. In animal kingdom, children born are used as food for the mother or father, or killed if their is not enough supply to go around. In Eskimo culture, a new born child may be killed for food or for necessity. To say that abortion in the final trimester is wrong is saying that every culture is wrong. When you focus on western culure view of the world you are blinded by the fact that to a majority of the world we in the west are the minority. You must understand a culture before you understand its views, as you must understand the individual person and their surroundings before making the choice for them. PRO-CHOICE is CHOICE. When you say pro-life is pro-choice you negate the meaning. Pro-life is not a choice its a force.
imabench

Con

Wait, this is all a ploy to justify abortion as a crude way to fight overpopulation and not because of the Woman's right to choose?........

There are much more ethical and more practical ways to fight overpopulation in the areas where it actually exists. Nations that are more modernized, educated, have longer average life spans, and have the highest GDP per capita have far lower birthrates than countries that do not. In the image below countries in the red have a net zero growth or may even be SHRINKING population wise, green areas have higher birth rates and are areas that are way less educated and much poorer than other nations.



Point is, abortion isnt the miracle key to stopping overpopulation, just making women educated has a drastic effect on population growth for a country. Brazil alone cut birthrates by 60% and one of the biggest reasons this even happened isnt because of abortions, but because of soap operas!
http://www.npr.org...

"Over population is Dangerously increasing in the US and worldwide"

Funny since there a good number of nations that are shrinking in population.... Japan is expected to lose a fourth of its population by 2050 and abortion hasnt caused this trend at all, people just stopped having children completely. Similar trends have been seen in South Korea and numerous countries in Europe too
http://www.businessweek.com...

"Speaking objectively a woman whom decides last minute to abort a fetus has the right to
(1) if they come into a financial crisis"
I agree with this because in my OPINION women should be able to. However others might disagree and they have the right to still protest against this for whatever reasons they have.

"(2) it would benefit the population in all if more fetus's would be aborted"
Which is a complete lie

"(3) if the child came down with a defect or a problematic disorder"
That has a good chance of being misdiagnosed in the first place and might not even be a lethal condition that people could live perfectly normal lives with....

"but in a late trimester if a mother decides they are not competent to be a parent,"
One doesnt simply decide if they are incompetent to be a parent, they chicken out. And there is is a nice long period of 7 months for those parents to make up their mind and for those 7 months they felt they were competent to be parents, I for one think it would be sad because a perfectly healthy fetus was aborted days before it would be born because one of the parents got cold feet when they could very well be a great parent...

"Religion is the factor that makes the moral question come in to play"
There are 250 athiests on this site alone who are against abortion (credit to Phantom for that info) so the morality of aborting a fetus isnt purely religious....

" In animal kingdom, children born are used as food for the mother or father"
Because that happens all the time in HUMAN culture (end sarcasm)

"To say that abortion in the final trimester is wrong is saying that every culture is wrong"
And what twisted f*cked up logic are you basing that off of? Cultures arent centered around late term abortion and there certainly isnt any way that a culture can be "wrong". You may approve or disapprove of a culture but you cant say that it is right or wrong, and you also cant claim that anybody who doesnt approve of late term abortion thinks all cultures are wrong because thats got to be the stupidest thing Ive ever heard.....

" You must understand a culture before you understand its views, as you must understand the individual person and their surroundings before making the choice for them"
You dont need to understand a culture to understand its views... People across cultures they know nothing about can have the same opinions on a topic......

"When you say pro-life is pro-choice you negate the meaning. Pro-life is not a choice its a force."
I dont know what bubble gum wrapper the Pro is reading all of this off of but he has clearly lost track of what we are debating here.

Pro-choice isnt the only choice, people have a legitimate reason to want to be pro life whether its baout regular abortion or late term abortion. I personally am indifferent towards abortion in general, but towards late term abortion I have an issue with it because for me a late trimester fetus is perfectly human, which for me means that late term abortion can be seen by some as a form of murder.

Is late term abortion murder?

No one can say for sure, but there are people who think that late term abortion is murder, and that sounds like a damn good reason to be pro-life to me.

Pro-choice isnt the only choice, pro-life can be perfectly justified, therefore the resolution is negated.

I now will take me leave, but before I do I would like to remind you (the Pro) that this will be the day you remember as the day that you almost defeated.....

Captain.... Jack..... Sparrow.....

;D
Debate Round No. 4
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Koopin 4 years ago
Koopin
Wow dave, real mature buddy!
Posted by KeytarHero 4 years ago
KeytarHero
Argh. My RFD didn't save. I'll try this again:

To say pro-choice is the only choice is to not be pro-choice at all. Additionally, Pro begins with a false dichotomy, that her only options are to abort or have the child. He mentions adoption, but fails to mention that while delivery is expensive, the adoptive parents will foot the bill for the pregnancy, not the woman giving birth.

It was disappointing that Con basically conceded the argument in early abortion. His contentions that at the early stages, the unborn is only a glob of cells is factually wrong (we're all just bunches of cells fundamentally, and the zygote is only a few cells for a very short period of time), and that when abortions take place the pro-choice position has a very legit argument and is a good stance is simply wrong. Every surgical abortion stops a beating heart. By the time the earliest surgical abortions are done, the unborn already looks human.

Both debaters' arguments were bad and the debate was largely irrelevant to the issue of whether abortion is right or wrong. Pro's contention that "pro-choice is the only choice" is impossible to defend, so I gave arguments to Con, reluctantly.
Posted by WriterDave 4 years ago
WriterDave
You were pro-choice before seeing the pictures? Oh, that's right, the Romney thing. Sorry.

I still see the pictures there.
Posted by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
they where edited out
Posted by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
Those pictures made me pro life again
Posted by WriterDave 4 years ago
WriterDave
You got me. I'm a coward. Heck, I can't even give my real name or show my face online.

Oh, wait . . .
Posted by ConservativePolitico 4 years ago
ConservativePolitico
WriterDave is a loser hahaha

I bet he can see tons of cartoon blood in his D&D online exploits but when it comes to real life issues he's a coward...
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
Dave what the f*ck
Posted by Travniki 4 years ago
Travniki
I read the whole thing. Notice how I checked I agreed with you before and after. I wanted to give you the win, your arguments were stronger, but your conduct wasn't in the spirit of a debate.
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
travniki did you even read the debate or did you stop after the first round, give conduct to the pro, and then leave?
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by KeytarHero 4 years ago
KeytarHero
lind010imabenchTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.
Vote Placed by THEBOMB 4 years ago
THEBOMB
lind010imabenchTied
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Reasons for voting decision: wow...CVB...
Vote Placed by WriterDave 4 years ago
WriterDave
lind010imabenchTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I stopped reading when I saw Con's pictures. All points to Pro. And you're damned right this is a vote bomb -- there's no way Con's pictures calls for only one point loss for conduct. Frankly, if I could, I would take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. (It's the only way to be sure.)
Vote Placed by 1dustpelt 4 years ago
1dustpelt
lind010imabenchTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Vote is obvious.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
lind010imabenchTied
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Reasons for voting decision: easy vote is easy. THE WAY THEY DO ABORTION IS SCARY, so pro gets conduct
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 4 years ago
RoyLatham
lind010imabenchTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro took a very heavy burden of proof, that "Pro-choice is the only choice" implies there are no circumstances whatsoever where abortion should be prohibited. I think Pro went even beyond that implying that there were no circumstances were a prohibition is reasonably debatable. He didn't even try to meet the lesser burden of proof. He only argued that some cases should be subject to choice. Con's Donkey Kong graphic is tiresome. It's near a conduct violation.
Vote Placed by Travniki 4 years ago
Travniki
lind010imabenchTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct because of cons pictures. Their unisghtly nature would cause some not to be able to read the whole debate. Also, it isn't in the spirit of any debate to use emotion provocing pictures to make your point.