The Instigator
Mikal
Pro (for)
Winning
35 Points
The Contender
The_Scapegoat_bleats
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points

(Pro) Goku Vs (Con) The Hulk

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
Mikal
Voting Style: Judge Point System: Select Winner
Started: 4/25/2014 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 11,870 times Debate No: 53328
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (76)
Votes (6)

 

Mikal

Pro

Resolution - Goku Vs The Hulk

This is a shared BOP. Where I will defend that Goku could beat the Hulk and my adversary will defend that the Hulk could beat Goku.

Rounds

Pro


(1) Rules
(2) Contentions
(3) Contentions/Rebuttals/Closing Statements


Con

(1) Contentions
(2) Contentions/Rebuttals /Closing Statements
(3) Shall type only "no round as agreed upon" and nothing else


Rules

(1) Failure to type no round as agreed upon will result in a full 7 point loss due to my adversary having an extra round. This means that if any other words are typed besides the aforementioned ones, my adversary will FF the entire debate with a 7 point loss.
(2) 10k character limits.
(3) No semantics or trolling/ this will result in a ff
The_Scapegoat_bleats

Con

This argument will not make use of the fact that both Hulk and Goku have gone through a long evolution. We will not send SSJ4 Goku against a sleeping Bruce Banner, for then this debate would be useless.
What makes sense is to pit the strongest Hulk against a Goku with access to all of his powers and forms. As would befit Goku's character, who loves a good challenge more than anything else.
This can also not be a death battle. Goku only kills evil beings, but Hulk has been judged as innocent by Ghost Rider, Spirit of Vengeance, even while waging war on planet Earth. [1] This means Hulk is not innately evil. Besides, within Hulk resides the innocent soul of Bruce Banner, and Goku has repeatedly spared opponents until he had found a way to save entrapped good people inside them.
Hulk, on the other hand, will not kill unless attacked and enraged. Both, however, love sparring battles. Hulk as a desire to prove he is the strongest there is. A battle is thus very likely, if both meet on friendly terms. Hulk will not admit a tie. If both opponents are evenly matched, he will just walk away, but that would be a forfeiture in terms of this battle.

I will, for all purposes of this debate, grant Goku all powers and forms, but no exterior help. He may use his basic equipment and I will even grant him access to the Dragonballs.

The strongest Hulk there is is called "Green Scar" by the people of planet Sakaar, or "The Worldbreaker", and Hulk has been shown to be able to assume this form in certain instances spontaneously, much like Goku can power up to a different form:
This form is sentient and controlled, has access to the genius mind of Bruce Banner and is physically charged to the max.

"This incarnation has extremely high durability, shrugging off attacks that have hurt his other incarnations. He has had training in combat arms, including broadswords, spears, and battle shields, and is a capable leader and strategist. Another source of the Green Scar's strength in comparison to other versions was his lack of inner conflict, if not alliance, with Bruce Banner. [...] Green Scar's base level of strength was dramatically increased. While in a calm emotional state, he is the strongest primary incarnation. [...] the Hulk proved to be resistant to the Professor's psionic effects.[...] At this level, he started to release huge amounts of gamma energy from within his body, devastating New York, and causing quakes across North America. It would have taken but a couple of footsteps from the Hulk to completely destroy the eastern seaboard. If he had not let himself be stopped, then he definitely would [...] have completely destroyed the Earth. [...] The Hulk lived up to his "Worldbreaker" title by destroying a world [...] in the Dark Dimension."[2]

Hulks physical power is potentially LIMITLESS, growing exponentially with his also LIMITLESS rage. "In fact, upon actually measuring his power level, the omnipotent Beyonder stated outright that the Hulk's potential strength is intrinsically limitless, with "no finite element inside" [...] Additionally, as the foundation of his phenomenal strength, his rage is also described as being limitless."[2]
The Hulk has punched holes into the very fabric of reality, across dimensions [2], which means Goku cannot even hide in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Hulk's enormous jumping power makes him equal to Goku's power of flight. Hulk could easily jump up to God's palace in pursuit of Goku and tear the chamber down.

The Hulk has exceptional healing abilities, as he can form body matter from radiation almost instantly, just like his transformation into the Hulk. In one instance, "all of his skin and most of his muscle mass were extracted from his body. He regained his mass and completely healed within seconds". [2]

The Hulk also doesn't tire in his rage, he is virtually relentless: "In an enraged state, the Hulk is capable of exerting himself at peak physical capacity for several days before fatigue begins to affect him."[2]


Meanwhile, in the Dragon Ball Universe:

The God of Destruction Beerus has the potential to destroy the solar system: "But Whis does say at one point in the movie that if Beers is angered, then the entire solar system (taiyou-kei in Japanese) will be wiped out in no time flat." [3]
Akira Toriyama, the inventor of Dragon Ball, has personally stated: "I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6." [4]

This gives us a first-hand idea of Goku's absolute power-level for energy attacks.
Goku can, however, not access this power all the time: "The only way for Goku to achieve this form is to harness the power of six pure-hearted Saiyans." [5]
This would be cheating in terms of this battle, though. Goku's other forms are much weaker in terms of Ki energy.

"In Dragon Ball GT, Goku [...] lifts half a city while in his Super Saiyan 4 state, though it leaves him panting doing so." [6]
This gives us an example of Goku's physical strength limits and his stamina. Overall, there is a lot of panting and sweating going on in Dragonball Z and GT. Goku's great power is quickly exerted.

How about his mystical power? Goku can collect the Dragonballs, and they can grant him a wish. Not "any" wish, though:
"Shenron can bestow any wish as long as it does not exceed the power of his creator" [7].
The creators of the Dragonballs are Namekkian aliens, and while they are powerful, they aren't nearly anywhere as powerful as Goku. So, what the Dragonballs can do to Hulk, Goku could achieve himself. We can thus leave the Dragonballs out of the picture.
Hulk's body also resists most transformations, so turning him into a frog for example won't really work. Dark magic powers Hulk up, and he has been reported to dispel or absorb mystic energies. But that's not really relevant, as the creator of the Dragonballs is Dende, a young Namekkian with not too much of power.

So, now we know what our combatants can dish out.
Let's see what Hulk can take [8]. He was able to withstand a blast of Galactus during the "Secret War", which was during one of his weaker forms. We have learnt that Green Scar Hulk can shrug off attacks that hurt Hulk before. Just how much damage Galactus can deal is seen here: "Galactus has destroyed three star systems in wiping out the Wave" [9].
If Hulk can take a blast from Galactus, Goku's strongest attacks have nothing on him.

If we look at the evidence, Goku's attacks cannot harm Hulk. Goku may be faster, but he has a tendency to run out of energy really fast, while Hulk will only get annoyed with every attack, making him even stronger. Once Goku has tired, Hulk will finally catch up with him and defeat him.

Goku's attacks and other techniques require Ki, and that fades with his exhaustion, to a point where he will just fall unconscious.
Goku might want to win by using either borrowed energy, with some variation of his Spirit Bomb [10], but this attack needs time to build up and Goku must be in his base form: without friends to keep Hulk distracted, Hulk would tackle Goku during the preparations and finish the match.
Goku could instant-transmit Hulk somewhere, but even this power has a limitation: "the user cannot travel to an area they have never been to unless they can detect someone familiar to them to use as a homing beacon." [11]
So, Goku can actually NOT drop Hulk off in a black hole or something. He could strand Hulk somewhere and then abandon the fight, but I would consider that a retreat, and thus forfeiture of the battle. And even if not: The entire "Green Scar" saga was the result of Hulk being dropped off on an alien planet. Eventually, he returned to Earth and almost took the planet apart in his search for vengeance. So, no matter where Goku would take Hulk, it would not mean Hulk's defeat, only a delay of the battle. Only this time, Hulk would be seriously angered, making him even harder to overcome.

Basically, the fight will take the same course it took between Beerus and Goku [12]: Goku will eventually run out of power and either declare himself beaten or will be knocked out.

Hulk's strength and creative uses thereof, like his "thunderclap" that creates a shock wave by him clapping his hands, combined with his resilience and regeneration, will be more than a sufficient match for Goku.

It is thus evident that Hulk has a very real chance to beat Goku, while Goku's powers are basically useless against the emerald giant.

Since Hulk also has no weakness against Goku's further equipment like his magical staff, and Hulk has on occasion broken allegedly indestructible objects, we can assume that Goku virtually has nothing on his hands to defeat Hulk.


[1]: http://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com...
[2]: http://marvel.wikia.com...
[3]: http://www.kanzenshuu.com...
[4]: http://www.kanzenshuu.com...
[5]: http://www.comicvine.com...
[6]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[7]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[8]: http://static.comicvine.com...
[9]: http://marvel.wikia.com...
[10]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[11]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[12]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Mikal

Pro

Finally back from work so lets hop on this

C1) Abilities

Goku

Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Super Saiyan 4
Kaio-Ken (Can junction with Super Saiyan Modes)
Ki blasts
Solar Flare
Homing Energy Wave
Spirit Bomb
Super Spirit Bomb
Ultra Spirit Bomb
Kamehameha
Ultra Kamehameha
Ultimate Kamehameha
Warp Kamehameha
Instant Kamehameha
Super Dragon Fist
Instant Transmission
After Image
Also a variety of other moves that I will not list due to limitations

Sourced [1]

The Hulk/Bruce Banner

Unlimited Strength (Gain power with rage)
Thunder Clap
Leaping/Jumping Abilities
Accelerated Healing
Dynamic Durability (More defense and regen with rage)
Resistant to mind control
High Durability

Sourced [2]

Something that is noticeable right off the bat is that Goku has a numerous amount of abilities over the incredible hulk. Just in sheer abilities alone the edge goes to Goku. We will review how effective the abilities are down below.


C2) Speed

This is where Goku would flat kill the Hulk. Even if the Hulk was in his most powerful form(which would not happen, see later contentions) he would not be able to land a hit on Goku. The speed of light is approximately 299.792.458 m/s [3]. Goku in SSJ3 mode(not even in super saiyan 4 mode), can move at 440.000.000 m/s [4]. This puts Goku at 1.46 x faster than the speed of light.

As I said even in the hulk where fully charged up or beyond raged, he would never be able to land a hit on Goku. Goku already is faster than the speed of light and with instant transmission and all of his warp Kamehameha abilities and energy seeking moves there would be no way the hulk would actually hit him. Goku could just kite him in circles for days







C3) Endurance

While the Hulk is durable, Goku is made of pure endurance. In his fight with freeza and cell Goku fought tirelessly for over 2 days straight [5]. Goku has the ability to fight days on end without stopping and can even fight days at a time in SS3 mode if he conserves his energy right.




C4) Training Background/ Intellect

The Hulk is a rage machine, similar to Broly. Both of these guys fight with nothing but rage and the angrier they are the stronger they are. The hulk has no training background at all , and any intellect he possess as bruce banner is thrown out the windown when he enters rage mode.

On the Other hand Goku has spent years training and fighting. He has also a very intelligent fighter, even going as far as to tell Gohan about SSJ3 being a detriment in certain situations. Saying that it can be deadly because of the amount of energy that is dispersed and that it is better to fight in normal SS3 because of the elongated fighting style that accompanies it. While he may not be book smart, Goku is a fighting genius

His abilities like After Image would have the hulk running in circles. After Image is an ability that makes it seems like the person is there because of the speed at which they are moving. Goku can teleport or move away at the speed of light and it is so fast that an image of him is left in the spot at which he accelerated. The hulks intellect would have him attack this image and on the spot and Goku because of his speed would be able to run circles around the hulk.




C5) Scenarios and How Goku would win

For the hulk to be a worthy opponent to even people like the green lantern or superman, he has to be fully enraged. Note even my adversary claims that Goku could beat superman[6]. The three times in which the hulk and superman have fought superman has come out victorious all 3 times. This is also when the Hulk had time to enrage and go on a rampage prior to the fight. So he was at a monumental power level in one of these fights at least [7]









A) Scenario 1

Goku could just overtake the hulk with a SS4 transformation. Pop Kaio-Ken x 20 to multiply his power. This would be an all in move but it would one shot the hulk. The hulk would require time to go on a rampage or gain rage to get his strength and defense up to a level where he could actually even be considered a sparring partner for Goku. If they were just to meet in a open fight where the hulk had just recent transformed or did not have time to gather a multitude of rage this scenario would end him.

Goku in SS4 and with his power multipled by Kaio-Ken would have almost all of his energy invested into this. He could channel all of his energy into a single move. Remember even In SSJ3 Goku is moving 1.46 times the speed of light, with SS4 approaching 2X the speed of light. He is also in fully control of SS4. With all of his energy and Kaio-Ken invested into a Super Dragon Fist, it would be enough to pierce the hulk and kill him on the spot. He would not have had time to gather rage or even be a viable enemy. Goku could do the transformation and Kaio- Ken all in under a minute. The fight would be over before it started





B) Scenario 2

Goku could teleport the hulk to another planet with instant transmission. Then instant transmission off the planet. He would be able to teleport into outer space and charge up enough energy for a Ultra(Universal) Spirit Bomb, which would be enough to destroy the entire planet and every living thing on it[8]

At the start of the Buu Saga it is stated that 300 kili could destroy a planet (daishezu said 200-300 kili) and ssj goku had a 3000 kili power level and he wasn't even going full strength. At SS4 we are looking at Goku around 3500 Kili. Goku possess the ability to blow up 11 planets and this is with basic moves. Even without charging up a Spirit Bomb (SS1,or2) Goku could blow it up with an energy blast past SS3 transformation

So after he is able to teleport the Hulk to another planet and blow it up, the hulk would be rendered useless in space and eventually revert back to bruce banner, where Goku could end him in the blink of an eye




C) Scenario 3. The Dragon Balls

This is where my adversary royally screws up. He actually grants me the power to use the Dragon balls which are 3 wishes. [9]

My adversary says this

" I will, for all purposes of this debate, grant Goku all powers and forms, but no exterior help. He may use his basic equipment and I will even grant him access to the Dragonballs. "

At this point this debate is lost. As I explained earlier Goku could just invest all of his energy into a super attack that would end the Hulk. With my adversary allowing me access to the dragon balls, Goku would have access to restored energy or enough energy to automatically gather a universal spirit bomb (All the energy in the universe) Instantly without even charging it.

Essentially It would work like this. Goku Turns into SS4 and goes it Kaio-Ken x 20

Wish 1

Grant enough energy instantly to form the Universal Spirit Bomb.

Goku would then stick all of his energy into the blast with it which is over 3500 kili, the ability to destroy 10 planets in SS4 mode.

Wish 2

Restore Gokus energy.

He would re do the same thing. SS4 Mode and Kaio- Ken x 20 and invest it in the spirit bomb and drain himself while reserving just enough energy for a instant transmission later on. This would in Gokus energy alone have enough to destroy 22 planets, add the fact in that it has all the energy from the universe it possess the capability of destroying the universe as we know it at this point.

There is no escaping this. He would launch it at the Hulk and it would kill him instantly along with most of the Galaxy and the Universe. He would use his last bit of remaining energy to instant transmission to a place where he would be safe and where the dragon balls where being used.

Wish Number 3

Restore the Galaxy and Universe back to the way it was and without the hulk in it


The battle is over





Conclusion

In all honesty there is no line of semantics my adversary can play such as Goku would not fight the hulk in (x) situation and so forth. This debate was about who would win a one on one fight. With the Hulk often entering into rage mode and even threatening earth from his rage, Goku would fight and kill him.

Goku would win in almost every scenario and through all of the ones I presented above. Goku is one of the strongest heroes in the universe, if not the strongest.

vote pro




Sources


[1] http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[2] http://www.incrediblehulkonline.com...
[3] 299792.458 km/s
[4] http://9gag.com...
[5] http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[6] see comments in this debate
[7] http://scifi.stackexchange.com...
[8] http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[9] http://dragonball.wikia.com...(object)



The_Scapegoat_bleats

Con

I find my opponent's disregard of the source material disturbing. It's our only proof.

1. Abilities:
Again, Goku's far too weak to harm "Green Scar" Hulk, so the NUMBER of his abilities does not matter. Hulk can assume the "Green Scar" form ANYTIME, in spite of Banner:
"He momentarily reappeared in battle with the Hulk's son Skaar,[...] proven even strong enough to take down the Red Hulk without much of a fight" [1]
So, no matter how hard my opponent wishes this form not to appear - it would.

2. Speed:
A fly is faster than me, and can circle me for hours. That does not mean I am in ANY way "beaten" by it.
Hulk will do what everybody would do with a fly: clap.
http://static.comicvine.com...
Ghost Rider, "one of the most powerful entities within the mortal and immortal realms" [2], who can only be destroyed by God himself [3], is tossed around like nothing by Hulk's thunderclap.
It's enough to stop Goku for a moment, which would be enough for Hulk to grapple him. He can catch Spider-Man (see below).
Goku's eardrums are still susceptible to sound. As long as he can hear, it will do this: "Traumatic brain injury can also be caused by exposure to blast ..., even if there is no direct contact ... Explosions cause a wave of changed atmospheric pressure" [4]
"Instant transmission": Goku must put his fingers to his forehead in silent preparation. [5] Hulk can punch faster:
http://i388.photobucket.com...
Goku can only go where he's been before. I myself made this common mistake, but I learned.

3) Endurance:
Goku can keep his Saiyan 3 level only for MINUTES [6] (RESEARCH!). His weakness is his comparative lack of stamina. We often see him panting. He collapsed after his fight with Beerus. [7]
Hulk is the epitome of endurance, his body will always reform to its original state: "In a notable episode, Maestro even molecularly rebuilt his body after being atomized." [1]
Maestro is a future version of the Hulk, and this feat is INHERENT since an atomized body has no will.

4) "The hulk has no training background at all..."
Wrong: "He has had training in combat arms, including broadswords, spears, and battle shields, and is a capable leader and strategist. ... There were several instances where the Hulk and Banner worked together strategically, such as acting to disable Dr Strange." [1]
Currently, Hulk is serving as an Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D., the world's leading secret agency. [1]
Hulk's vastly more experienced.

"going as far as to tell Gohan about SSJ3 being a detriment ... better to fight in normal SS3"
This never happened. If Super Saiyan 3 is a detriment, how is it a solution to fight in Super Saiyan 3? SSJ is the JAPANESE and GERMAN equivalent of SS, the Saiyans are correctly called "Saiyajin" - meaning "star dweller".
What is an "elongated fighting style"?

5) Scenarios
My opponent's source [6] makes no sense. Only ONE person in the comments supports this. And even if it were so: argumentum ad populum - it goes against the evidence I have found.
Source [7] offered by my opponent is totally unrelated, about Red Hulk.
"Superman beats Hulk" is irrelevant without objective comparison of their powers. Beerus can POSSIBLY destroy one solar system, Galactus destroyed three. That's a comparison.

What does FAN ART have to do with this debate? Superman would never decapitate someone. My opponent has no respect for the characters we're discussing (see below).

A) Piercing Hulk
No matter how hard the object is hit: a hole is a hole. Hulk can regrow tissue real fast, this would slow him down for seconds at best:
http://static.comicvine.com...
http://static.comicvine.com...
http://static.comicvine.com...
Then, Goku would be powerless and beaten. My opponent has just offered a scenario in favour of the Hulk.
Another problem: Goku would never kill a being unless it is really evil. Even Frieza was offered a chance to redeem himself before Goku finally killed him [8].
Hulk is - as I stated above - not evil. Goku will not kill him. This debate is allegedly about the CHARACTERS Goku and Hulk. Neither has ever purposely killed an innocent or fellow hero. My opponent apparently thinks he can turn this into a win for himself by redefining the characters. But the resolution is not "Would a being with powers like Goku defeat a being with powers like Hulk?", it's about the two beloved characters generations of readers and fans have grown to love.
Re-writing them to murderous beasts is applying "semantics" in a severe case in my book: taking the names and powers only and claiming those to be the same persons.
Goku is explicitly known for his ability to befriend his enemies. [7]
I consider this a full forfeiture by my opponent.

B) The Spirit bombs

Goku can NOT live in space without a space suit. A spacesuit would melt from Super Saiyan, as this form is surrounded by an energy aura consisting of yellow flames that can't dissipate like on a planet. The whole strategy fails.

The Universal Spirit bomb can't be formed without outside help: "However, thanks to the help of King Kai, along with the other Kais, Goku is able to ask every person in the universe to donate their energy to the Spirit Bomb, thus creating the Universal Spirit Bomb." [10]
Full forfeiture.
If Goku destroys the planet without a Spirit Bomb, he would not have "beaten" Hulk per se. Hulk has leapt into outer space, shattering objects twice the size of planet Earth:
http://static.comicvine.com...
Also: Hulk has been dropped in space before. And his body is known to adapt to hostile environments, INCLUDING THE VACUUM OF SPACE: http://static.comicvine.com...
Hulk will thus not fall unconscious, will not revert to Banner, and Goku can only hope that Hulk doesn't grab him. Hulk will find his way home. He will eventually find Goku and resume the battle.

In the Dragonball universe, dead people go to an alternate dimension, the "Other World" [11], where Goku can teleport to and from [5].
Hulk has been shown to shatter the barriers between dimensions: "Breaking up the space-time continuum with a powerful blow." [1] more than once.
So even by killing Hulk, Goku won't BEAT the Hulk, who'll keep coming.

C) Wishful thinking:
My opponent has chosen the Dragon Porunga of Namek [12]. This is the ONLY dragon to grant THREE wishes.
Porunga only accepts Namekian language, Goku can't make his wish. A translator would be outside help, meaning forfeiture.
Now, say Goku summons Shenron, the Earth Dragon, and drops one wish, because Shenron grants only TWO.
"All the energy in the universe" No. The Ultimate Spirit bomb only gathers a fraction of the power of the universe, a little bit from each living PERSON. [10] Hardly enough to stop Hulk's infinite energy.

Wish 1:
No Dragon can grant this:"Your wish cannot be granted because the guardian of Earth created me. I cannot grant a wish that exceed's his power." [13]
Porunga, who's stronger than Shenron, was created by Moori ( http://dragonball.wikia.com... ), whose official power level is 5000. Dende was just a kid when he made Shenron. Even during the first DBZ saga, Goku surpassed this famously: "It's over 9000!"
So, this little bit of energy can be GENERATED.
The wish could only grant Goku the same help that the Kais gave him: asking for a DONATION of energy out of free will. That's outside help by EVERYBODY. Full forfeit.

Wish 2: Dende's Shenron can do this due to Dende being a healer [14].
Doesn't matter, Goku's outmatched by Hulk's power infinite times. He still won't hurt Hulk. Goku would omit THIS wish.

Wish 3: The Universal Spirit Bomb can NOT destroy the universe. It has been fired off in one direction and did NOT destroy half of the universe [10]: no way to wish the universe back.
Wishing Hulk out of existence is against the rules of the Dragonballs [15][16].
There's no way around this, because Shenron is wise, and it's up to him to grant wishes: "he ... chooses to interpret them how he knows the wisher actually wants, as a courtesy ... Credence is lent to this [...] where Shenron was asked to move all the dead people back to the Other World. He claimed that he was perfectly capable of granting the wish precisely as it was uttered, but he knew what consequences the Z Fighters were expecting [...] and warned them of the futility of the wish."[15]

While Goku discusses this with Shenron, Hulk gives him the beating of a lifetime.

I have shown how the Hulk can defeat Goku in numerous ways. Every strategy my opponent has proposed leads to Goku's defeat, and no matter what my opponent wants to bring up as final arguments - which I find unfair as he is entitled to new arguments that will go undisputed, thus negating his idea of a fair debate - and his contentions: Hulk can not be stopped.

Thanks all, take care.

[1]: http://marvel.wikia.com...
[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org...
[3]: http://ghostrider.omegacen.com...
[4]: http://www.drugs.com...
[5]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[6]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[7]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[8]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[9]: obsolete
[10]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[11]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[12]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[13]: http://www.imdb.com...
[14]: http://www.absoluteanime.com...
[15]: http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[16]: http://www.animemegaverse.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Mikal

Pro

Rebuttals

R1) The Green Scar

The fatal misconception that my adversary still keeps drawing is that the Green Scar is more powerful than Goku. Even the Green Scar has to acquire rage to be strong. So let us assume we are fighting this version of the hulk.

" While in a calm emotional state, he is the strongest primary incarnation. During a burst of unexplained anger from the Hulk in New York City, Professor X attempted to slow down the angered Hulk with intense power; however, the Hulk proved to be resistant to the Professor's psionic effects. The Green Scar reached a new level of anger at the end of World War Hulk, after his fellow Warbound Miek attempted to provoke him to destroy the world" [1]

Meaning that if he s not able to keep calm in the green scar state, he becomes weaker because of a lack of control. He would still gain strength but his mental capacity would weaken.

Either way it is time to break down this Green Scar can not be hurt misconception. Even in the form of the Green Scar the hulk can be hurt, because he possesses the same capability with a slightly higher level of intellect and a lot more strength. His regeneration can make him almost impossible to kill but there are two ways to kill him on the spot

(a) Snap his neck/decapitate him ( Even if his regeneration worked over a period of time and he grew his head back, he would still lose the fight even if it theoretically did not kill him. But for all intents and purposes it would probably kill him
(b) rip out his heart (same as above)
(c) Blow his body up so he can not regenerate.


Examples of how the Hulk has died

He was killed by hoarfen with a brutal chomp.



" Many years later the Warriors Three, Hulk and his wife Betty, along with Red Norvell and some of the Pantheon were pursing Agamemnon to Siingard Castles. The Frost Giant Siingard then unleashees Hoarfen to protect Agamemnon. Siingard first order to the wolf Hoarfen was to kill the Hulk. Leading up to this Hector eventually catches Agamemmon and while doing so Hoarfen is released. Hoarfens thunders towards the band of heroes making Hector Drop Agamemmon into the hulks arms. Hoarfens then grabs the Hulk and Agamemmon in his mouth killing the two. Hoarfen then proceeds to attack the others who attacks prove useless against the giant wolf Hoarfen as no weapon could harm him." [2]

Hoarfen is at super strength class 100[3]. Here is just a list of people that are in the same category [4] which actually includes iron man

Basically Super Strength classes in marvel are defined as


"In the Marvel universe, Superhuman strength is often measured by a Class structure based on the number of tons a character can lift of his or her head, from 1 to 100 (Class 20, Class 50, Class 100, etc). Characters who can lift more than 100 tons often have incalculable or unlimited strength."[5]

This was also in the hulks form right below WW hulk and he was killed with ease. Which goes to show a strong blow can in fact kill the hulk.

Thor was able to snap the Hulks neck as well[6] in the series "what if the hulk went berserk". He also was able to do this with ease.

R1A) How this is applicable

Goku in SSJ4 or SS4 with a superdragon fast in kaio ken has more strength than a full on superman assault. One punch would be stronger than a hammer or thor or a bite from Hoarfen. Remember the hulk was killed a blow in Class 100 which is where ironman resides. This is basically saying they have the strength to do (x). A majority of heroes fall into this and have killed the hulk with heavy blows such as Thor and Hoarfen. Remember Goku can travel at the speed of light to gain momentum and is already classed in a league with superman in sheer strength. With entering kaio-ken to multipy his power x 20 he would be able to quicly discard of the hulk.

He could either snap his neck or rip his head off
He could rip out his heart
or he could enter SSJ4 and do a x10 Kamehameha while he is in Kaio-Ken (this would be enough to blow up mulitple planets as you can see in my prior round).

Any of these attack would either Kill or force the hulk back into the form of bruce banner. At this point the fight is over and Goku has won the fight. This is about winning a one v one fight and not killing persay, but we have to acknowledge that goku would dismember banner once he returns to that form. Even if we said he was in the Green Scar mode the attack would be so deadly that it would render banner immobile ending the battle.

Goku could blow up a planet with a simple chi blast in SS3. This is derived from broly. Broly has a power level of 1,400,000,000 [7]. Goku in SS4 has a power level of 1,500,000,000[7]. In Super Saiyan 3 Goku is at 1,200,000,000 . Broly was able to blow up a planet without even expending hardly any energy[8]. If Goku in SS4 is stronger than broly(this is without Kaio-Ken he would be able to discard of a planet with a simple chi blast. If he were to channel all of his energy into a thurst, he could easily decapitate the hulk or rip out his heart rendering him immobile.

Basically even in the green scar form, the hulk is vulnerable to a precise and accurate attack. He would not even necessarily have to die, but all of Gokus attacks in SS4 or SSJ4 would be enough to easily incapacitate the hulk and leave him vulnerable which would result in a win for Goku.


R2) Thunder Clap

My adversary brings up a point about thunder clap being effective but this is null. He concedes Goku can move at 1.4x-2.0x the speed of light.

" A fly is faster than me, and can circle me for hours. That does not mean I am in ANY way "beaten" by it. Hulk will do what everybody would do with a fly: clap "

By asserting that Goku is in fact as fast as the speed of light, he fails to understand that he would never get hit by a thunder clap. He could teleport out of range before the hulk could even flinch to move his arms.

R3) Endurance

My adversary says Goku can only hold Super Saiyan for a matter of minutes. This is false. If you look at the fights with buu, freeza, and cell Goku was able to hold his super saiyan form for many hours and this when he was on an even playing field with them. He is able to stay in the form longer if he does not extend large amounts of energy. Just moving and using teleport, would enable him to stay in the form for days due to energy conversation. [9]



Rebuilding Case

How Goku Could beat the hulk.

A) A single blow in full power

I have shown this a little above as well. Broly could blow up a planet in legendary super saiyan mode just with a simple chi blast, and Goku in SS4 is stronger than him. See sourced links above. This is not even with kaio-ken which would make him 20x more powerful but expound all of his energy in a matter of seconds. With Kaio- Ken being activated in SS4 he would be possibly the strongest being in the entire universe. Again Broly could destory planets with a flick of a finger, and Goku is stronger than him in SS4. Multiply his power level 1,500,000,000 x 20 and see the result of his strength. It would expend all of his energy and leave him on the verge of death, but he could invest all of the energy into a single attack and piece the hulks heart, decapitate him, or hit him so hard he is obliterated into air. Even with ripping out his heart or taking off his head, Goku would win the fight.

AA) Goku would not kill or fight the Hulk

My adversary dug his own grave hear by saying he wanted to use the green scar. Goku is he worlds defender and loves earth.

" The Green Scar reached a new level of anger at the end of World War Hulk, after his fellow Warbound Miek attempted to provoke him to destroy the world. At this level, he started to release huge amounts of gamma energy from within his body, devastating New York, and causing quakes across North America. It would have taken but a couple of footsteps from the Hulk to completely destroy the eastern seaboard. If he had not let himself be stopped, then he definitely would have lived up to his "Worldbreaker" title, and would have completely destroyed the Earth " [10]




Goku would not just fight this Hulk but kill him. Just as he killed Freeza, Cell , Buu, and Omega Shenron when they threatened earth. This is a fight among characters and when the hulk is enraged, which is what my adversary is wanting so bad. Goku would kill him. He would also be strong enough in SS4 and Kaio-Ken x 20 to instantly dismember the hulk and leave him incapacitated winning the fight.

B) Spirit Bomb

Goku would not have to be in outer space where could not breathe, but just teleport the hulk to a planet and ward to the other side of it in the outer system near space. The hulk would not be able to sense him and Goku would still destroy the planet. Leaving the Hulk Stranded in space without air.

He still requires air to breathe. Which would kill him in the end. He would either pass out and be rendered useless awarding goku the fight or he would die. If he passed out his body could possibly adapt to the climate over (x) amount of time but the fight would still be Gokus


C) Dragon ball

This entire refutation is based off the fact Goku cant speak Namekeian.

Goku has left traveling the world in Gt and could easily learn 3 to 10 words in Namekian.

And even given two wishes it would not change the oucome



Conclussion

there is no way the Hulk could beat Goku

[1] http://marvel.wikia.com...(Robert_Bruce_Banner)
[2] http://marvel.wikia.com...(Earth-616)
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[4] http://marvel.wikia.com...
[5] http://marvel.wikia.com...
[6] http://hulkcollection.wordpress.com...
[7] http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[8] See youtube video at top of page
[9] http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[10] http://marvel.wikia.com...(Robert_Bruce_Banner)
[11] http://www.comicvine.com...

The_Scapegoat_bleats

Con

"no round as agreed upon"
Debate Round No. 3
76 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by The_Scapegoat_bleats 2 years ago
The_Scapegoat_bleats
Common sense and straw man are both fallacies.
Neither is valid.
Posted by Mikal 2 years ago
Mikal
That is actually called a straw man and it is a valid way to win a debate

Outside of that,t he point was not dropped

Ore said he would message you personally about your behavior if you chose to say
and airmax just said making another account is the best option

no the mods don't like you either. That is common sense, especially if max is telling you the best option for you to say would be to create an account so on one knows who you are.

Either way you are leaving, so I could care less

counting down the days, to I never have to read another idiotic post from you
Posted by The_Scapegoat_bleats 2 years ago
The_Scapegoat_bleats
What he wrote is that as opposed to your claim, I am not lined up to be banned.
Another of your attempts at distraction. Basically, you dropped your point. Another concession. You couldn't even debate with a manual next to you.
I am well aware that I'm unpopular with some users. I don't care. Only lousy debaters would make popularity an argument. You lot making this site a beauty pageant is what is bringing down the house in the first place. If being popular makes me anything like you then thank God I'm not liked.
Posted by Mikal 2 years ago
Mikal
Re read that. The dude told you to make a new account because everyone freaking hates you dude. FFS are you that dense

he did the same thing with zarrotte and others to try and help them blend back into the community. If that does not speak volumes about your character then I have no idea what else to say to you
Posted by The_Scapegoat_bleats 2 years ago
The_Scapegoat_bleats
"Tell the mods you are not going to leave voluntary" "Or just mention you plan on sticking around"

Why would I tell the mods lies?
I am leaving in 23 days, when voting on the Star Wars debate is over.
You dare me to lie to the moderators and then see what happens?

This is what airmax told me on the topic:
Me: "You are free to use your power to ban me for that/from that."

airmax1227: "I have no intention of doing anything of the sort. It's up to you to proceed how you want with this."

Even this:
airmax1227: "I think due to the perceptions of that, it would at the very least, be best for you to deactivate your current account and create a new one, if you'd be willing to stay."

And while I originally intended to ignore you, Mikal, you addressing me is something that will not go unanswered in this specific comment section. My apologies to the moderators for that, but any insinuations directed at me will be answered.

So, I still don't know what you're going on about.
Posted by Mikal 2 years ago
Mikal
Or just mention you plan on sticking around
Posted by Mikal 2 years ago
Mikal
Tell the mods you are not going to leave voluntary and watch what they tell you in return. Dare you
Posted by The_Scapegoat_bleats 2 years ago
The_Scapegoat_bleats
"No one acknowledges you, or thinks you are good. That is shared by you and yourself alone."

And that is EXACTLY the kind of induction that disqualifies you as a debater.
You don't know a lot of people in the world, not even on this site.
Yet you claim to know this. Not only is this invalid, it is also wrong:

About this debate:

"Just did. Not going to vote. They should tie." http://www.debate.org...

"Vote Placed by Maikuru 1 week ago
Maikuru
Reasons for voting decision: Con established Hulk's abilities using appropriate sources, establishing an endurance level seemingly surpassing the destructive abilities of even those who bested Goku in the past. Pro's description of Goku's power and endurance, by comparison, were either poorly sourced (e.g. comments of this debate, other debates, fan polls) or not sourced at all. This immediately wins Con arguments related to character strength and endurance. This includes Po's argument related to Hulk's death, which Pro concedes does not refer to the version of Hulk being discussed in this debate. Con concedes Goku's speed, but Pro never properly establishes how this would damage Hulk. Pro contradicts himself on Goku's stamina; he simultaneously states that Goku can remain charged for days, Goku must conserve his power to remain charged, and Goku would use ultimate-level attacks during this battle. Without sufficient stamina to remain in the battle or power to injure Hulk, Goku would fall...apparently."
http://www.debate.org...

"Posted by blueraven 1 week ago
the_scapegoat_bleats is going to win"
http://www.debate.org...

It doesn't even end there. So, no matter what the omniscient Mikal claims: there are people who believe I am good at what I do.

Secondly: it wouldn't even need a good debater to tell a bad one.
The mods told me nothing of the kind you describe so far. Wrong ag
Posted by Mikal 2 years ago
Mikal
You can deny whatever you want, it doesn't change facts

Facts are you are one of the worst debaters to ever grace this site with your presence, if you can even call yourself a debater

You have an average elo per win of 1950. Grats for being worse than jifpop, and possibly the most notorious noobsniper over 3k elo. Never thought it was possible. There is literally nothing left to say to you lol. You can btch and moan all you want, that will never change the fact that you are a noobsniper scared of real debaters. You can hype yourself up in your head all you want, but it doesn't mean you are actually good. It means you are deluded enough to think you are good. Sociopaths often exemplify and share similar traits. No one acknowledges you, or thinks you are good. That is shared by you and yourself alone.

Go read your comments in the comment section and forums. You have dismantled nothing. The only thing you managed to do was pusy out of every challenge that was sent your way.

I anticipate and will celebrate the day you are gone. You know you really suck when juggle and the mods don't like you.

The entire truth boils down to this. You raged because I stomped you into the ground and cried about it to the mods. They told you the same exact thing as all the voters. You got your azz kicked. Now you want to leave, and are crying and btching while you are walking out the door. After getting beat by me, you are scared to take on any other viable debaters and have deluded yourself into thinking you possess some kind of skill that will never be there

I made you my own personal fetus, and aborted you because you were never viable. It was a pleasure to be your own personal coat hanger.

Enjoy your hiatus or departure. Please never come back

and with that good day
Posted by The_Scapegoat_bleats 2 years ago
The_Scapegoat_bleats
Boast all you want.
I'm leaving anyway, banning me would make no difference at all. If anything, it would only add to the suspicion that you are being favored.

You're constantly omitting the fact that you conceded to me in those comments, as that is YOUR ego being grinded to fine dust.

And if you could read what I wrote, you would understand that the voting system on this site makes it impossible to judge the quality of a debater by the point system.
whiteflame and you have high ELOs, yet you are both no debaters - well, in whiteflame's case I should add "anymore".
Which is why I'm bored debating people like you. Both you and whiteflame were dismantled by me in the comment section or the forum. I do not care about the votes. Zaroette won her debate, because Iamanatheistandthisiswhy was angry at me for another debate in the opinions section, where he finally had to concede to me. So, a spite vote.
The debate with Zaroette was tied in my book. A nice little time-waster, without any real consequence.
By the way, it was YOU who declined my drawing challenge, remember?
Why would I be bothered to debate people who have already lost to me easily in another place? Me going against the top ELO holder was a test for this site, my set goal from the beginning. Coincidentally, you.
Oh, you would definitely win your 10/10 debates, while not even debating. You made this site a popularity contest, and are as far from a debater as the sun is from the moon: you bathe in the light of debate, claiming to be one, yet you don't even get a proper resolution straight.
Take THIS debate. The proper resolution would be: "Goku can defeat Hulk in open battle."
No names attached to Pro and Con. That is something only inexperienced debaters would do. You find lots of those "resolutions" among the polls and opinions initiated by total newbies.
A resolution is a proper statement, but even that is asked too much of you. So call yourself whatever you want: I deny you are a debater.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by Jonbonbon 2 years ago
Jonbonbon
MikalThe_Scapegoat_bleats
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: Since the Hulk could not hit Goku, the Hulk is not invincible, and Goku can fight for days, it makes sense that at some point Goku would beat the Hulk, but it would be impossible for the Hulk to beat Goku. Logically my vote goes to pro.
Vote Placed by YYW 2 years ago
YYW
MikalThe_Scapegoat_bleats
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: PRO proved Goku would win, and CON was unable to overcome... basically everything that PRO put out, much in the same way that it's probable that Goku would overwhelm The Hulk. (As a disclaimer, I had no idea who/what Goku was before this debate.)
Vote Placed by TUF 2 years ago
TUF
MikalThe_Scapegoat_bleats
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tA86qg33hzm0T_qL5-owNhdUBiSz6vtXcEihCMibiEI/edit?usp=sharing
Vote Placed by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
MikalThe_Scapegoat_bleats
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: Con established Hulk's abilities using appropriate sources, establishing an endurance level seemingly surpassing the destructive abilities of even those who bested Goku in the past. Pro's description of Goku's power and endurance, by comparison, were either poorly sourced (e.g. comments of this debate, other debates, fan polls) or not sourced at all. This immediately wins Con arguments related to character strength and endurance. This includes Po's argument related to Hulk's death, which Pro concedes does not refer to the version of Hulk being discussed in this debate. Con concedes Goku's speed, but Pro never properly establishes how this would damage Hulk. Pro contradicts himself on Goku's stamina; he simultaneously states that Goku can remain charged for days, Goku must conserve his power to remain charged, and Goku would use ultimate-level attacks during this battle. Without sufficient stamina to remain in the battle or power to injure Hulk, Goku would fall...apparently.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
MikalThe_Scapegoat_bleats
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: Given in comments.
Vote Placed by bluesteel 2 years ago
bluesteel
MikalThe_Scapegoat_bleats
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: Pro proves that Goku's speed and strength will win. Con tries to prove Hulk is invincible, but Pro shows a number of cases where Hulk was able to be killed by super-strength types. Con's other strong argument -- that Goku wouldn't kill Hulk because he is good -- was disproven by Pro's argument that the Hulk in a rage would be a threat to the Earth, so Goku would kill him to protect his friends.