The Instigator
Stupidape
Pro (for)
The Contender
persianimmortal
Con (against)

(Pro) The Christian God is malevolent vs benevolent (Con).

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/9/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 348 times Debate No: 98800
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

Stupidape

Pro

Round one


I will be arguing that the Christian God is evil. My opponent will argue that the Christian God is good.

Definitions

God

""(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being." [0]"

Malevolent

"1. Having or exhibiting ill will; wishing harm to others; malicious.
2. Having a harmful influence: malevolent stars." [1]

Benevolent

"1.
a. Characterized by or given to doing good: "a benevolent philanthropist who donated the funds to found the town library" (Willie Morris).
b. Suggestive of doing good; agreeable: a benevolent smile.
2. Relating to a charitable organization that operates without making a profit." [2]


All other definitions are assumed common definitions unless otherwise agreed upon.


Burden of proof

Burden of proof will be equally shared.


Structure

Round 1 Acceptance and Definitions
Round 2 Arguments
Round 3 Rebuttals, respond directly to opponent's round two.
Round 4 Defense, respond directly to opponent's round three.


Failure to comply with any of these rules on a first offense will lose the conduct point. A second offense will forfeit the spelling and grammar point. A third offense will forfeit all remaining points.

Forfeiting any round will result in an automatic loss.

Sources
0. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com...
1. http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
2. http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
persianimmortal

Con

I accept the debate and wish my friend here good luck.

As a brief introduction, I don't really lean either way on the spectrum because I personally think God is both the Bringer of Death and at the same time, the All-Forgiving. I will elaborate on this more later on.
Debate Round No. 1
Stupidape

Pro

Round 2 Arguments


I. God's killings in the Old Testament

First, Jesus and the God of the Old Testament is one and the same. That Christians believe in only one God and the Old Testament is taught to Christians. Therefore, Jesus Christ committed the killings within the Old Testament.

"Did you know, for example, that God:

Forced friends and family to kill each other for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf?

Burned Aaron's sons to death for offering him strange fire?

Burned complainers to death, forced the survivors to eat quail until it literally came out their noses, sent "fiery serpents" to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water, and killed 14,700 for complaining about his killings?

Buried alive those that opposed Moses (along with their families)?

Burned 250 men to death for burning incense? " [3]

Richard Dawkins states " “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

R13; Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion " [4]


This means all those same characteristics can be said of Jesus Christ. One of the worst atrocities Jesus commits is Noah's flood. The flood was a genocide of nearly every human, animal, and plant on the planet Earth. To add insult to injury only fourteen humans were left afterwards. Meaning forced incest was the only way to reproduce and for the human race to survive.

II. Incest

" It's certain that Noah's children practiced incest. They had to.

Did God really have to kill everybody except Noah and his wife and children? Don't you love it when your loving god kills all the little laughing children to satisfy his genocidal lust? " [5]

III. Slavery

"""20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he [is] his money." [6]

"“Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;” " [7]""

I argue that God must be malevolent condone slavery. Not only that but God cannot be the source of all moral authority be allowing slavery.

IV. Eternal damnation

" Matthew 25:41English Standard Version (ESV)

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. " [8]

This is the worst of the worst in my opinion. Making Jesus even more evil than the God of the Old Testament. The Judaism God only had Hell for a finite time, about a year. Jesus the so called merciful extended Hell to all eternity. This is for only finite crimes, most notably not having faith in Jesus Christ.

There can be only one conclusion, that the Christian God is malevolent. Thanks for debating. I look forward to your response.

V. Sources
3. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...
4. https://www.goodreads.com...
5. http://the-militant-atheist.org...
6. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
7. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
8. https://www.biblegateway.com...
persianimmortal

Con

I would like to thank my friend for his argument, and now I will provide mine.


In my personal point of view, God is like a parent in the sense that the consequences He gives us as His children, is the direct contribution to our progression as an ever advancing civilization. A parent is essentially a friend and a trainer and his toughness when necessary for the child.
Im not a Christian but let's take look at Matthew 7:11 in the Holy Bible and I hope I do well for my Christian brothers and sisters. The verse says, "If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"
That is the whole point why Jesus calls God, "My Father", and declares His Station as His Son. That is the primary way we should relate to God, as our Father. The unfortunate thing is that people think of God primarily as a judge, watching to see if I did anything wrong so He could send His punishment. That is clearly not the case because regardless of what an average/ideal parent says or the punishment they give to the child, the parent always loves them no matter what and as I said before, it is for the good of the child's growth.
Only once in the King James Version of the New Testament do we find the phrase "God the judge," while the phrase "God the Father" is found 13 times. On top of that, 11 times we find the phrase "God our Father," but not once do we find "God our judge." Notice the major difference between "God the judge" which is in the Bible only once, and "God our judge which is not in the Bible.

Additionally, in James 1:17, it says, "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." So all the good things and perfect things come from the Father (God) and the things He sends us does not change in its nature.

But the question is, God has commanded conquests to be carried for the eradication of entire peoples, how is this a "good and perfect gift"?
I will open this question by giving reference from Deutoronomy 20:16-17 where it says, "However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you." This verse is quite controversial and raises many eyebrows due to its direct command of essentially, extermination. However we must dive into the reasons behind this Divine Directive and see whether the annihilation was a good thing or otherwise.

In the Hebrew Bible, there are instances where God points to the abhorent behaviour of the Idol worshippers mentioned in Deut. 20:16-17. In Deut 23:17-18 it says, "No Israelite, whether man or woman, may become a temple prostitute. You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute into the house of the LORD your God to pay any vow, because the LORD your God detests them both. The temple of the idol worshippers was in the land that God had promised the Jewish peoples. However, these were no ordinary temples, for they contained unspeakable evils that were ultimately concerous to the spirituality of the devout Chosen people. The temples they used to pray to their interpretation of a supreme being, was used as grounds for harlotry, essentially cult prostitution. Both males and females when they reached the age of maturity, partook in this sick activity of being the prostitute of the temple, apssed around to those who unleashed their sexual urges on young men and women, boys and girls alike. Job 36:14 perfectly summarizes the conditions of the victims when it says, "They die in youth, and their life ends among the cult prostitutes." This is a direct and clear indication that in the name of their own interpretation of a supreme being, the actions leaders and teachers of the idol worshippers would partake in such activities to quell their temporary urges as they passed a girl or boy around like a used piece of napkin. This is the cancer that had dominate the land in which God had promised the Jewish people.

Some would think that, "well why didn't God just command the Jews to go elsewhere?" The answer is clear and simple. When the Jews were the ones with the most recent Message from God that was a cure for the spiritual ills of the world in that day, then to ignore the sick would be an action worthy of punishment itself, the same way how a doctor would be punished by a power higher tham himself if he ignored the sick. So the Jews were obligated to remove the cancer that was spreading in the region, as per the command of God, because end crops go bad, you don't keep them around...you eliminiate them and start anew, by tilling the soil and planting new seeds.



Addinitionally, I am not Muslim nor is this debate topic about Islam, but one thing interesting to note is that in Islam, there are 99 Names of God and among those 99 Names there are titles that show both sides of the coin esentially, and I will mention them respectively including their references in the Qur'an:

The Giver of Honor (3:26)
The Giver of Dishonor (3:26)

The Exalter, The Upgrader (58:11)(6:83)
The Abaser, The Humiliator, The Downgrader (56:3)

The Giver of Life (7:158)(15:23)(30:50)(57:2)
The Bringer of Death (3:156)(7:158)(15:23)(57:2)

The Expediter, He Who Brings Forward (16:61)
The Delayer, He Who Puts Far Away (71:4)

The Propitious, The Benefactor, The Source of Good (30:37)
The Distressor, The Harmer, The Afflictor (6:17)

So the issue you raised, regarding Is God Malevolent or Benevolent, from a Islamic point of view and Christian and Jewish, it seems God is both for good reason, but even the parent-like nature of God is quite evident, even without the Quran to voice these 99 Names.

So in conclusion, I have presented an All-Benevolent Parent (God) who gives us necessary consequences, positive and negative, as result we become the ever-advancing civilization that grows and develops and constantly learns from its mistakes.

I look forward to the the next round.
Debate Round No. 2
Stupidape

Pro

Round three rebuttals

"In my personal point of view, God is like a parent in the sense that the consequences He gives us as His children, is the direct contribution to our progression as an ever advancing civilization. A parent is essentially a friend and a trainer and his toughness when necessary for the child." persianimmortal

I disagree with the first sentence and agree with the second. In the first sentence I do not see God as a parent like figure. First, parents in nature have to have sexual intercourse to reproduce. Think of a mountain lion and lioness. There is a lot of energy expended to mate, bear children, give birth, protect and feed those children until maturity.

God is portrayed as infinite in contrast. Creating humans seems to require little to no effort on God's behalf. This devalues humans and life in general. No wonder there is so much blood shed connected with Christianity.

Furthermore, a mountain lion and lioness have parents of their own. God has no parents. This not only is irrational, but again shows how vastly different God is from humans and all known lifeforms. Plants have parents, microorganisms have parents, God does not. God is more foreign to humans than single celled organisms. Truly, understanding the physical nature of God is an extremely difficult task.

To show how foreign God is, God does not need to eat and rarely needs to rest. I can understand an energy being that needs to consume at least once a day to be healthy, but God seems even more foreign and distant than an energy being. In fact, humans have more in common with the average immaterial object than God.

In summary, I completely reject the analogy of comparing God to a parent. This is a bad analogy. A better analogy would be comparing humans to God's pets.
"Description: When an analogy is used to prove or disprove an argument, but the analogy is too dissimilar to be effective, that is, it is unlike the argument more than it is like the argument." [9]


"That is clearly not the case because regardless of what an average/ideal parent says or the punishment they give to the child, the parent always loves them no matter what and as I said before, it is for the good of the child's growth." persianimmortal

Parents rarely kill their children. God often kills his "children." The relationship between God and humans is more like a pet and pet owner relationship than a father and children relationship. An even better analogy between God and humans would be between farmer and crops. Humans are the crops.


" The temple of the idol worshippers was in the land that God had promised the Jewish peoples. However, these were no ordinary temples, for they contained unspeakable evils that were ultimately concerous to the spirituality of the devout Chosen people. The temples they used to pray to their interpretation of a supreme being, was used as grounds for harlotry, essentially cult prostitution. Both males and females when they reached the age of maturity, partook in this sick activity of being the prostitute of the temple, apssed around to those who unleashed their sexual urges on young men and women, boys and girls alike." persianimmortal

I'm sorry, I just can't perceive your point of view. I just can't see consenting adults having sexual intercourse at an unspeakable evil. Nor, do I see the relevance of the holy land promised to the Jewish people. Finally, I fail to understand how false idol worship is a terrible crime.

To compare all these harmless acts to genocide is well ridiculous. This would be like comparing a teenager spraying painting a piece of wood that he owned in his own backyard to Stalin's mass murder of millions. All the acts you mentioned by the idol worshipers are absolutely benign. To label these deeds as evil is evil within itself.

I understand the need to sometimes use a heavy hand, but the punishment must fit the crime. If, let's say a bunch of aliens were going to nuke and exterminate everyone on Earth and the only way to save Earth was to push a button that would destroy all the aliens, this could be seen as justifiable homicide, since it was self defense. Yet, this is not the case. This is not self-defense and cannot be justified.


" This is the cancer that had dominate the land in which God had promised the Jewish people. " persianimmortal

Cancer is a degenerate disease with treatments. Although a cure is unreliable at best, the effects of cancer can often be mitigated by a combination of healthy life style, medication, and surgery. To compare people, living breathing people to cancer is dehumanizing and a false analogy. [9]

Couldn't God have just scared the idol worshipers away to other lands? Surely, their journey would have been harsh. Exile in lieu of genocide. Or perhaps, order his followers to exile the idol worshipers. This is within the power of a God who can part the Red sea and other miracles.


"So in conclusion, I have presented an All-Benevolent Parent (God) who gives us necessary consequences, positive and negative, as result we become the ever-advancing civilization that grows and develops and constantly learns from its mistakes. " persianimmortal

You have shown a God which in no way resembles a parent give extreme penalties for benign behavior. The question I am left over and over with through out my life is "why, why did God kill false idol worshipers?"

You have tried to explain why it is so terrible and many others have also tried, but I have never understood why false idol worship is supposed to be such a heinous crime. Same goes with supposed crimes of lust involving two or more consenting adults. This is the dual problem why I cannot understand theists. The both irrational and immoral nature of God.

To kill someone just because they worship a false idol or killing four or more consenting adults performing sexual acts seems bizarre, irrational, and immoral. I find trying to make sense or align myself with this thinking and feeling is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I just become frustrated, angry, and make no progress.

I read your words, I can rebuttal your arguments, but I cannot understand your point of view.

Sources.
9. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com...
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
You should attend this debate:
Atheism- A lost reality! A hopeless, helpless cause!
Posted by persianimmortal 1 year ago
persianimmortal
dang....should I just make this debate and we can copy paste our answers in the rounds?
Posted by Stupidape 1 year ago
Stupidape
Might as well type in th answer now, I got the forfeit glitch, about 100 debates in stasis.
Posted by persianimmortal 1 year ago
persianimmortal
Hey man, My electricity went out last night and I had to go to the university in the morning so i kinda just got back. I have my answer ready and I will give it in the next round.
Posted by persianimmortal 1 year ago
persianimmortal
All good man. take your time as much as you need and if you have to cancel this one then do it. Hope everything goes well.
Posted by Stupidape 1 year ago
Stupidape
I'm a little overwhelmed right now I counted on more people forfeiting in the early rounds than they did. Think of an airplane selling more tickets than seats available. I create ten or so debates at a time counting on average seven of them to be trolls and or forfeiters. Expect a respond in approx. 48 hours.
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