The Instigator
Stupidape
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Wholock
Con (against)
Tied
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(Pro) The Christian God is malevolent vs benevolent (Con).

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/9/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 438 times Debate No: 98822
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
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Stupidape

Pro

Round one


I will be arguing that the Christian God is evil. My opponent will argue that the Christian God is good.

Definitions

God

""(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being." [0]"

Malevolent

"1. Having or exhibiting ill will; wishing harm to others; malicious.
2. Having a harmful influence: malevolent stars."

Benevolent

"1.
a. Characterized by or given to doing good: "a benevolent philanthropist who donated the funds to found the town library" (Willie Morris).
b. Suggestive of doing good; agreeable: a benevolent smile.
2. Relating to a charitable organization that operates without making a profit."


All other definitions are assumed common definitions unless otherwise agreed upon.


Burden of proof

Burden of proof will be equally shared.


Structure

Round 1 Acceptance and Definitions
Round 2 Arguments
Round 3 Rebuttals, respond directly to opponent's round two.
Round 4 Defense, respond directly to opponent's round three.


Failure to comply with any of these rules on a first offense will lose the conduct point. A second offense will forfeit the spelling and grammar point. A third offense will forfeit all remaining points.

Sources
0. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com...
1. http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
2. http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
Wholock

Con

I will be arguing that the Christian God is benevolent. My opponent will argue that the Christian God is malevolent.

Definitions

God (https://www.merriam-webster.com...)

"The Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe."

Malevolent (http://www.thefreedictionary.com...)

"Having or exhibiting ill will; wishing harm to others; malicious."

Benevolent (https://www.merriam-webster.com...)

"Marked by or suggestive of goodwill."
Debate Round No. 1
Stupidape

Pro

Round 2 Arguments


I. God's killings in the Old Testament

First, Jesus and the God of the Old Testament is one and the same. That Christians believe in only one God and the Old Testament is taught to Christians. Therefore, Jesus Christ committed the killings within the Old Testament.

"Did you know, for example, that God:

Forced friends and family to kill each other for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf?

Burned Aaron's sons to death for offering him strange fire?

Burned complainers to death, forced the survivors to eat quail until it literally came out their noses, sent "fiery serpents" to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water, and killed 14,700 for complaining about his killings?

Buried alive those that opposed Moses (along with their families)?

Burned 250 men to death for burning incense? " [3]

Richard Dawkins states " “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

R13; Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion " [4]


This means all those same characteristics can be said of Jesus Christ. One of the worst atrocities Jesus commits is Noah's flood. The flood was a genocide of nearly every human, animal, and plant on the planet Earth. To add insult to injury only fourteen humans were left afterwards. Meaning forced incest was the only way to reproduce and for the human race to survive.

II. Incest

" It's certain that Noah's children practiced incest. They had to.

Did God really have to kill everybody except Noah and his wife and children? Don't you love it when your loving god kills all the little laughing children to satisfy his genocidal lust? " [5]

III. Slavery

"""20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he [is] his money." [6]

"“Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;” " [7]""

I argue that God must be malevolent condone slavery. Not only that but God cannot be the source of all moral authority be allowing slavery.

IV. Eternal damnation

" Matthew 25:41English Standard Version (ESV)

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. " [8]

This is the worst of the worst in my opinion. Making Jesus even more evil than the God of the Old Testament. The Judaism God only had Hell for a finite time, about a year. Jesus the so called merciful extended Hell to all eternity. This is for only finite crimes, most notably not having faith in Jesus Christ.

There can be only one conclusion, that the Christian God is malevolent. Thanks for debating. I look forward to your response.

V. Sources
3. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...
4. https://www.goodreads.com...
5. http://the-militant-atheist.org...
6. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
7. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
8. https://www.biblegateway.com...
Wholock

Con

I. Clarification

First off, I would to clarify that according to both my and my opponent"s definition of malevolent and benevolent, my opponent has to prove that the Christian God shows ill will towards humans, meaning God is malicious and wishes to harm humans, and I have to prove that the Christian God has a good will, meaning that God is kind.

II. There is no Good Without Evil

This argument, while purely logically, is a fundamental truth. Without sadness, happiness is just a constant state of feeling; without night, day is just the fact that the sun is always out; and without injustice, justice is just reality. Without evils in the world, it is very bland as it is harder to appreciate the good things in life because they are no longer good things, just things. Therefore, by creating evil in our world, God has given life goodness and meaning, showing that God is benevolent, as it is kind to give the gift of happiness and love to humans.

III. Treat Everyone Equally (https://www.biblegateway.com...)

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his"sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and"sends rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:44-48

This means that, while on Earth, God wishes that everyone is treated equally. God advocates that you love your enemy, your children, everyone. If everyone followed God"s advice, there would be no hatred, and; therefore, little to no violence. If we lived in a world where everyone loved each other, the world would be a much better place and the world would be rid of much of its evils. Therefore, God shows that God is kind by advocating for love and peace.

IV. The Ten Commandments (http://www.the-ten-commandments.org...)

"5. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you."
6. "You shall not commit adultery."
7. "You shall not steal."
9. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
10. "You shall not covet your neighbor"s house; you shall not covet your neighbor"s wife, nor his male servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey nor anything else that is your neighbor"s.""


The Ten Commandments, which are a part of both the Jewish and Christian religion, show God benevolence, specifically commandments five through ten. These commandments, when followed, create a more peaceful world for mankind. The fifth commandment tells people to appreciate their parents; commandments six through nine discourage murder, adultery, murder, and lying; and the tenth commandment discourages greed. All the above create stability in the society, and if followed would make the world a better place. If we lived in a world where these commandments were followed by everyone, our world would be much more peaceful, and it would be easier to spend time finding cures for diseases like cancer because we wouldn't be spending time solving murder mysteries. Therefore, God shows kindness by giving mankind advice to get as close to a world without evil as possible.

V. Forgiveness (http://biblehub.com...)

"Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." Ephesians 4:32

Here, it is stated that God has forgiven much of mankind for their sins. Therefore, since God has forgiven mankind for our sins, even though God wasn't required God is kind and benevolent. In addition, God advocates the important trait of forgiveness, which leads to a more peaceful world as no one is trying to find revenge on others.

VI. Conclusion

Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion is that the Christian God is benevolent. I look forward to your response. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 2
Stupidape

Pro

Rebuttals round three

Opponent's arguments in bold and italics.


"I. Clarification

First off, I would to clarify that according to both my and my opponent"s definition of malevolent and benevolent, my opponent has to prove that the Christian God shows ill will towards humans, meaning God is malicious and wishes to harm humans, and I have to prove that the Christian God has a good will, meaning that God is kind." Wholock

Agreed.


"II. There is no Good Without Evil

This argument, while purely logically, is a fundamental truth. Without sadness, happiness is just a constant state of feeling; without night, day is just the fact that the sun is always out; and without injustice, justice is just reality. Without evils in the world, it is very bland as it is harder to appreciate the good things in life because they are no longer good things, just things. Therefore, by creating evil in our world, God has given life goodness and meaning, showing that God is benevolent, as it is kind to give the gift of happiness and love to humans." Wholock

Your argument assumes God exists in the first place. This begs the question who created God? Since a creator inherently must be more complex than the creation this leads to the problem of infinite regressions. Speaking from a purely fictional stand point, that we can judge the characters in the Harry Potter series, I think humans will always have something to struggle against.

Whether it be faith, hunger, disease, hatred, etc. I have no problem with a fictional God creating the basics like disease and hunger. Yet, adding more to people's burden who are already struggling seems immoral.

Let's take for example organized crime. The same argument by Wholock could be used for the mafia. That the mafia creates evil, thus they are good by giving people something to struggle against. The problem is the everyday citizen has a lot to struggle against already. There is plenty of hero's calls without organized crime. I certainty wouldn't call the mafia good by any means, nor would I call a psychopathic killer moral.

In brief, I wouldn't judge a fictional God for creating Satan, I would judge a fictional God for killing more people than Satan.


III. Treat everyone equally

"This means that, while on Earth, God wishes that everyone is treated equally. God advocates that you love your enemy, your children, everyone. If everyone followed God"s advice, there would be no hatred, and; therefore, little to no violence. If we lived in a world where everyone loved each other, the world would be a much better place and the world would be rid of much of its evils. Therefore, God shows that God is kind by advocating for love and peace." Wholock

There are three major problems with this. First, assuming God exists, without God your enemies could take advantage of you. The best example I can of having too much trust is pedophile priests.

"Confessions of Priest Who Molested 17 Boys Released" [9]

Second, even if God exists, it is self evident that God doesn't always intevene on the behalf of the innocent. [9] Third, there are many Bible verses that state the exact opposite.

"
2 Corinthians 6:14King James Version (KJV)

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
" [10]

"Nehemiah 13:3

“Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude.” " [11]


"IV. The Ten Commandments" Wholock

I'll agree that the commandments my opponent mentioned are worth following. Yet, there is atheistic or objective morality. Rats and chickens have empathy.

"Empathetic Rats Help Each Other Out" [12]
"Domestic chickens display signs of empathy, the ability to 'feel another's pain' that is at the heart of compassion, a study has found. [13]

Religion has stolen credit where science and philosophy should receive the credit. That humans are altruistic via evolution and can develop morals just fine without God giving out ten commandments.


"Forgiveness

Here, it is stated that God has forgiven much of mankind for their sins. Therefore, since God has forgiven mankind for our sins, even though God wasn't required God is kind and benevolent. In addition, God advocates the important trait of forgiveness, which leads to a more peaceful world as no one is trying to find revenge on others." Wholock

The problem with forgiveness, is sometimes it is best not to forgive. That a person would repeat an immoral action until someone else intervenes. This is true of immoral self-rewarding behavior. That forgiving the person will only make the problem worse in this scenario. Otherwise, it is usually best to be forgiving. Yet, as seen in the previous section rats and chickens possess empathy, we do not need God to reiterate what we would have most likely already have done.

Thank you for presenting you argument in a clean, organized, and easy to read format Wholock.

Sources.
9. http://abcnews.go.com...
10. https://www.biblegateway.com...
11. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
12. http://www.livescience.com...
13. http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
Wholock

Con

I. God's killings in the Old Testament (Pro)
First, Jesus and the God of the Old Testament is one and the same. That Christians believe in only one God and the Old Testament is taught to Christians. Therefore, Jesus Christ committed the killings within the Old Testament.

"Did you know, for example, that God:

Forced friends and family to kill each other for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf?

Burned Aaron's sons to death for offering him strange fire?

Burned complainers to death, forced the survivors to eat quail until it literally came out their noses, sent "fiery serpents" to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water, and killed 14,700 for complaining about his killings?

Buried alive those that opposed Moses (along with their families)?

Burned 250 men to death for burning incense? ""[3]

Richard Dawkins states " "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

R13; Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion " [4]

This means all those same characteristics can be said of Jesus Christ. One of the worst atrocities Jesus commits is Noah's flood. The flood was a genocide of nearly every human, animal, and plant on the planet Earth. To add insult to injury only fourteen humans were left afterwards. Meaning forced incest was the only way to reproduce and for the human race to survive.


II. God's killings in the Old Testament (Con) http://biblehub.com... ; http://biblehub.com...

If one fact checks what they find in Richard Dawkin"s book, you"ll find many things are actually taken out of context. For example, when you said that God "Forced friends and family to kill each other for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf," while it is true, there is a good reason behind it.

"Moses felt that he was divinely commissioned to perform this act of severity. The lives of all who had committed the idolatry were justly forfeit. Trial was unnecessary where the offence was being openly committed before the eyes of all. Such dancing and such shouting could not possibly be Jehovah-worship. It was by its very character idolatrous."

"Probably these were but few in comparison with the many that were guilty; but these were the men that headed the rebellion, and were therefore picked out to be made examples of, for terror to others."

So, he killed them to punish the society and to make an example of them. Children need to be punished when they are young, so that"s what God did: God punished God"s "children". Remember, that if someone is killed, there is an afterlife, so being killed isn"t exactly as bad as it is made out to be. (Of course killing is terrible, but we for this debate, we have to assume there is an afterlife. In this debate, we have to assume God is real because since some people believe God is real and God, whether real or not, has made an impact on our world.)

III. Incest (Pro)
" It's certain that Noah's children practiced incest. They had to.

Did God really have to kill everybody except Noah and his wife and children? Don't you love it when your loving god kills all the little laughing children to satisfy his genocidal lust? " [5]


IV. Incest (Con)
First off, I"d like to point out that our morals and morals from back then were very different, so incest wasn"t considered a bad thing. In fact, incest was very common back then, especially as there was no scientific evidence that showed that incest could cause defects. In addition, it isn"t malicious to have siblings have children have children together; in fact, parents married their children to each other all the time back then.

V. Slavery (Pro)
"""20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he [is] his money." [6]

""Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;" " [7]""

I argue that God must be malevolent condone slavery. Not only that but God cannot be the source of all moral authority be allowing slavery.


VI. Slavery (Con) http://biblehub.com...
"Your masters"according to the flesh."This phrase (used also in Colossians 3:12) at once implies the necessary limitation of all human slavery. It can subjugate and even kill the body, but it cannot touch the spirit; and it belongs only to the visible life of this world, not to the world to come. The slave is a man in spiritual and immortal being, not a "living tool" or "chattel," as even philosophy called him."

So really, your quotes are in fact about limiting slavery. In fact, one of your quotes states that if a man beats his servants and his servants die, the master will be punished. Yes, I would agree that God would be considered malicious if he condoned slavery, but he clearly doesn"t, and your quotes and mine support that fact.

VII. Eternal damnation (Pro)
" Matthew 25:41English Standard Version (ESV)

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. " [8]

This is the worst of the worst in my opinion. Making Jesus even more evil than the God of the Old Testament. The Judaism God only had Hell for a finite time, about a year. Jesus the so called merciful extended Hell to all eternity. This is for only finite crimes, most notably not having faith in Jesus Christ.


VIII. Eternal damnation (Con) http://www.bibleinfo.com...
"In English these words mean that the fire will go on forever, but in the Greek it has a different meaning. Dr. Basil Atkinson explains it this way."

"When the adjective aionios,"meaning"everlasting is used in Greek"with nouns of action it has reference to the result of the act, not the process. The phrase everlasting punishment is comparable to everlasting redemption and everlasting salvation, both Scriptural phrases. No one supposes that we are being redeemed or saved forever. We were redeemed and saved once for all by Christ with eternal results. In the same way the lost will not be passing through the process of punishment forever but will be punished"once and for all with eternal results. On the other hand the noun 'life' is not a noun of action, but a noun expressing a state. Thus life itself is eternal.
Basil F. C. Atkinson," Life and Immortality." An Examination of the Nature and Meaning of Life and Death as they are revealed in the Scriptures (Taunton, England, n. n.), p.101."

So, according to this source, because of mistranslation, people assume that people who go to hell will burn there for eternity, but actually, they will burn once, which is much better than the year the Jewish God gives them.

IX. Conclusion

Therefore, the Christian God is clearly not as malicious as people make God out to be. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
Stupidape

Pro

Round Four Defense


"If one fact checks what they find in Richard Dawkin"s book, you"ll find many things are actually taken out of context. For example, when you said that God "Forced friends and family to kill each other for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf," while it is true, there is a good reason behind it.

"Moses felt that he was divinely commissioned to perform this act of severity. The lives of all who had committed the idolatry were justly forfeit. Trial was unnecessary where the offence was being openly committed before the eyes of all. Such dancing and such shouting could not possibly be Jehovah-worship. It was by its very character idolatrous."

"Probably these were but few in comparison with the many that were guilty; but these were the men that headed the rebellion, and were therefore picked out to be made examples of, for terror to others."

So, he killed them to punish the society and to make an example of them. Children need to be punished when they are young, so that"s what God did: God punished God"s "children". Remember, that if someone is killed, there is an afterlife, so being killed isn"t exactly as bad as it is made out to be. (Of course killing is terrible, but we for this debate, we have to assume there is an afterlife. In this debate, we have to assume God is real because since some people believe God is real and God, whether real or not, has made an impact on our world.)" Wholock

First, Drunk with Blood is written by Steve Wells. [14] Second, killing children is a cruel and unusual punishment. If a toddler does something awful, like deliberately burn down the house, parents would still be in a lot of trouble if they killed their child. The idea of the afterlife devalues human life. The afterlife is a critical component of the suicide terrorist's attacks. If the Islam extremists didn't believe in the afterlife, the terrorists attacks would never have happened.

Furthermore, the afterlife has a place called Hell. Since one day is like a thousand years to God and Jesus is God, I think it is safe to say that the people killed for dancing around the idol are burning in eternal damnation. Just as anybody killed by God in the Old Testament is burning in eternal damnation.

"2 Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [15]

So, the fact that there is an afterlife is salt in the wounds for the people who danced around the calf who are now burning in Hell forever and ever.


"IV. Incest (Con)
First off, I"d like to point out that our morals and morals from back then were very different, so incest wasn"t considered a bad thing. In fact, incest was very common back then, especially as there was no scientific evidence that showed that incest could cause defects. In addition, it isn"t malicious to have siblings have children have children together; in fact, parents married their children to each other all the time back then." Wholock

My opponent is arguing that ignorance is bliss, since the people didn't know any better it was moral. The problem is that God is all powerful and the source of all moral authority. God would have to know that it was immoral. Furthermore, if your arguing innocence, how about the infants and young children God killed? Wouldn't they be innocent? Pick one, arguing from innocence or all are guilty. You can't have both.


"So really, your quotes are in fact about limiting slavery. In fact, one of your quotes states that if a man beats his servants and his servants die, the master will be punished. Yes, I would agree that God would be considered malicious if he condoned slavery, but he clearly doesn"t, and your quotes and mine support that fact." Wholock

Limiting slavery is allowing slavery. Also, God condones beating of slaves, as long as the slaves live. This last sentence is not a new argument, you just failed to respond to this part of the quote.


"So, according to this source, because of mistranslation, people assume that people who go to hell will burn there for eternity, but actually, they will burn once, which is much better than the year the Jewish God gives them." Wholock

The Bible is very difficult to interpret, and mistranslations make the task even more difficult. I can safely say, I do not know which translation is correct. Your answer poses more questions though. Let's say you are correct, well Eternal Damnation still remains a popular notion. Why, would God allow such a mistranslation to go unnoticed for so long? I can only come up with two answers, either God doesn't exist or God is malevolent.


Source.
14. https://www.goodreads.com...
15. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
Wholock

Con

My opponent's rebuttals are in bold.

II. There is no Good Without Evil

Your argument assumes God exists in the first place. This begs the question who created God? Since a creator inherently must be more complex than the creation this leads to the problem of infinite regressions. Speaking from a purely fictional stand point, that we can judge the characters in the Harry Potter series, I think humans will always have something to struggle against.

Whether it be faith, hunger, disease, hatred, etc. I have no problem with a fictional God creating the basics like disease and hunger. Yet, adding more to people's burden who are already struggling seems immoral.

Let's take for example organized crime. The same argument by Wholock could be used for the mafia. That the mafia creates evil, thus they are good by giving people something to struggle against. The problem is the everyday citizen has a lot to struggle against already. There is plenty of hero's calls without organized crime. I certainty wouldn't call the mafia good by any means, nor would I call a psychopathic killer moral.

In brief, I wouldn't judge a fictional God for creating Satan, I would judge a fictional God for killing more people than Satan.


First off I would like to point out that we have to assume God is real, because, let's say using the Harry Potter world as you have previously mentioned, Voldemort killed 1,929 people, we can verify that Voldemort killed exactly 1,928 people, unless he killed any more that we are unaware of or was framed, but since the number is so high, only the gist of it really matters. On the other hand, if we assumed God was fake then we are unsure if Moses went off people for fun, or if he had a 'vision' and believed it was some higher power telling him what to do. So since the lines blur between fiction and reality, we must assume God is real.

Next, I would like to point out that you didn't mention murder as one of the things that it is okay for God to allow. The problem is, without murder, our most basic human instincts of survival would have been taken away and we never would have made it past being cave men. For example, if their are two men, who are going to die if they don't get a lot of food to eat immediately, and they stumble upon a baby chicken what are they going to do? First thing they are not going to do is let the chicken keep on going because it would be evil to kill it. Second thing they are going to do is split it. If they did, they'd both die and we'd never have evolution, nor would we be here today as we would have gone extinct as we would have no instinct for survival. It is in our blood to kill. Unless you're a vegetarian, you don't condemn killing as you're eating slaughtered animals all the time.

Onto where you mention the mafia, it is one thing to be the Mafia and another to let the Mafia do what they are doing for the advancement of human progress. Back to the Harry Potter analogy, in the magical world many purebloods hated muggles and all things to do with them. The rest of society is too lazy to fix it, and without a little incentive, they wouldn't have anywhere. That's why the affect of the Wizarding Wars were good even if the killers behind them were not.

You agreed that God giving people hate is justified, and people aren't just going to sit there hating, they're going to do something about it. That's why we have murder, because there are very few serial killers out there. Most people justify their actions somehow. Hell, Hitler thought he was the greatest man ever born, morally and in every other way.

III. Treat everyone equally

There are three major problems with this. First, assuming God exists, without God your enemies could take advantage of you. The best example I can of having too much trust is pedophile priests.

"Confessions of Priest Who Molested 17 Boys Released" [9]

Second, even if God exists, it is self evident that God doesn't always intevene on the behalf of the innocent. [9] Third, there are many Bible verses that state the exact opposite.

"
2 Corinthians 6:14King James Version (KJV)

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
" [10]

"Nehemiah 13:3

"Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude." " [11]


First off, I have shown earlier why we must assume that God is real for this debate. Second, if God always intervened on the behalf of the innocent there would be no evil, and therefore no good, as I have shown in my earlier arguments. Third, both your quotes do not show God showing inequality. Your first quote is a warning from God not to marry someone who doesn't believe in God because your relationship will be difficult. It's not a command or suggestive that people who don't believe in God are below those that do, just a warning that pursuing such a relationship my be difficult. [1]

"IV. The Ten Commandments" Wholock

I'll agree that the commandments my opponent mentioned are worth following. Yet, there is atheistic or objective morality. Rats and chickens have empathy.

"Empathetic Rats Help Each Other Out" [12]
"Domestic chickens display signs of empathy, the ability to 'feel another's pain' that is at the heart of compassion, a study has found. [13]

Religion has stolen credit where science and philosophy should receive the credit. That humans are altruistic via evolution and can develop morals just fine without God giving out ten commandments.


I agree that many people can develop morality without the Bible, but there are also many people who's have grown better morally due to the ten commandments. Plus, people obviously needed moral guidance at the time if God had to tell them not to murder or steal.

V. Forgiveness

Here, it is stated that God has forgiven much of mankind for their sins. Therefore, since God has forgiven mankind for our sins, even though God wasn't required God is kind and benevolent. In addition, God advocates the important trait of forgiveness, which leads to a more peaceful world as no one is trying to find revenge on others." Wholock

The problem with forgiveness, is sometimes it is best not to forgive. That a person would repeat an immoral action until someone else intervenes. This is true of immoral self-rewarding behavior. That forgiving the person will only make the problem worse in this scenario. Otherwise, it is usually best to be forgiving. Yet, as seen in the previous section rats and chickens possess empathy, we do not need God to reiterate what we would have most likely already have done.


Your argument that it is sometimes better no to forgive contradicts the fact that sinners shouldn't be punished. If someone did something totally awful they should be punished for it and then you should be over it. Here, God is just advocating forgiveness and that we try to forgive each other and not ruin a relationship based on a small argument. Some rats and chickens in lab cages can develop empathy and forgiveness, sure, but these rats are put in an environment where they are meant to learn empathy. In addition, it is only a minority of the human population that doesn't posses these traits, even though it turns out to be a large amount since even 1/100 of the human population is huge. So, when 1/100 rats doesn't develop empathy, they say that the majority of rats can develop empathy without God, so obviously rats don't need God to develop empathy. However, here we are catering to the minority as it is the minority that needs to learn how to forgive. If 1/100 of the human population didn't have empathy, it would be disastrous. Some people need a motive, and God can be their motive to develop empathy and forgiveness.

For all these reasons and more I strongly urge a con ballot. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
You should attend this debate:
Atheism- A lost reality! A hopeless, helpless cause!
Posted by Wholock 1 year ago
Wholock
Sorry I forgot to post the website of my source in round 4. Here it is: https://www.gotquestions.org...
Posted by Stupidape 1 year ago
Stupidape
Thanks for sticking through to so far Wholock have had a lot of forfeits in round one and two lately.
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