The Instigator
kingcripple
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
DarthVitiosus
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Professional wrestlers are better athletes than football players

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/10/2014 Category: Sports
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,000 times Debate No: 63044
Debate Rounds (4)
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kingcripple

Pro

Anyone who wishes to take this debate may do so

10000 character limit.
1st rd for opening arguments
2nd and 3rd rds for rebuttals and cross examinations.
4th rd closing statements no new arguments can be made

I base my belief that professional wrestlers are better athletes than football players on the following points:

1. Wrestlers perform in excess of 5-7 days a week no breaks. Sometimes more than once a day. Football players play once a week. The extent of physicality is not much different. You have big men throwing each other around in Professional Wrestling as you do in football. The fact that wrestlers do this more often is indicative of wrestlers being better athletes.

2. The second point is very similar. In wrestling there is no off season. Which means they are doing it nearly every day of the week. often times only getting 10 days off in a year. Football players. professional ones at least, have one game a week for 17 weeks. that comes to 16 games in a football season when you factor in a bye week. Wrestlers perform often times 100s of times in a year. Of course I am not counting JUST televised events for professional wrestlers.

3. Wrestlers travel more and further than professional wrestlers. After every show, if there isnt my multiple shows in one town, that means one night in a hotel then it is off to the airport and flying to some other state, city, or even country. Football players cannot say they travel as far or as often as wrestlers. Wrestlers have the stamina that football players do not have

4. Moreover, there is alot more to being a professional wrestler than being a football player. The ability to travel for hours on a plane then get up early in the morning for public apperences or some sort of promotional escapade, and then perform later that night speaks volumes about the professional wrestlers athleticism and endurance.

Conculsion: Professional wrestlers perform more and travel more, testing their ability to consistantly perform on a much higher scale than that of a football player
DarthVitiosus

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for hosting this debate. I suppose my opponent and I share the burden of proof for this debate. As Con, I am arguing that football players are better athletes than professional wrestlers.

1. Football players play competitively.

Football players are actually playing against opponents who are playing to win. Professional wrestling is scripted and the ending has been created long before the match has started. That is not the case in football. There is no script for players to follow. Players play the sport knowing that the other guy is playing to win as well. Football players have to study tapes and study their opposing teams' plays. Football is competitive with both side attempting to win the game and they will utilize whatever means to win[1][2][3].

Professional wrestling is more like ballet and/or theater than a competitive sport. In professional wrestling, no one is really trying to resist the moves their opponent is doing. That is why a small wrestler can beat a giant, or a woman can beat a man,or even more interesting is when a man overcomes three men by some unforeseen miracle. Other impossible feats can only be conceptualized in professional wrestling because it is not competitive and scripted. This why professional wrestling will allow the most outlandish outcomes to happen.

[1]Deacon Jones Headslap
http://youtu.be...

[2]Dick Butkus
http://youtu.be...

[3]Ray Lewis putting down Chad Johnson
http://youtu.be...

2. Football is actually antagonistic.

Unlike professional wrestling, there is no acting involved in football. Football players used to often attempt to take another player off the field or worse send them to the hospital. Players still attempt to take each other off the field but they can't openly try it otherwise they will face a fine and/or suspension. The most infamous example that I recall was when Albert Haynesworth of the Tennessee Titans took his cleat and stomped on another player's head while the player was on the ground. If the player had not been wearing a helmet, he could of been hurt severely. In professional wrestling, the entertainers are not deliberately trying to hurt each other. Nor are they attempting to send someone to the hospital intentionally. Professional wrestlers are actually working together to entertain. Football players are not trying to entertain intentionally when they hit someone hard. Football players are trying to take someone out.

[4]Albert Haynesworth's head stomp
http://youtu.be...

3. Football games demand far greater endurance and physical athleticism.

A football game lasts about 3 hours[5]. A professional wrestling match lasts a few minutes. Professional wrestling does not demand endurance, strength, or speed. Why would they need to have all of these physical abilities when their opponent is not trying to hurt them?

[5]http://www.nationalfootballpost.com...
Debate Round No. 1
kingcripple

Pro

My opponent claims that football players are competitive. While I'd be inclined to agree the same can be said for professional wrestling. It is called backstage politics in wrestling[1]

My opponent also asserts that football is antagonistic. So is professional wrestling. Every so often you will get a wrestler who is known as a stiff worker. A stiff worker is a wrestler who actually punches or kicks or slams an opponent hard. Bill Goldberg (Goldberg) and Leon White (Vader) are known as the two stiffest workers in the business.[2]

Also sometimes, wrestling matches become real fights[3].

On the subject of fighting, sometimes things get so heated that fights occur back stage between wrestlers. Take the example of Booker T. Hoffman(Booker T.) and Dave Bautista(Batista)[4][5]. Respect is a huge thing in professional wrestling. Batist said some disrespectful things that Booker T. did not like. and a scuffle broke out. Both parties say they can work together but will likely never be friends

Not all wrestling matches last a few minutes. Take the Wrestlemania 12 60 minute Iron Man Match between Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart.[6] It lasted 60 minutes and ended in a draw that required sudden death. Keep in mind that there were no breaks in between. In football, players get breaks in between quarters and time outs. Olympic Gold Medal wrestler, Kurt Angle and Former NCAA Champion and UFC CHampion, Brock Lesnar also had a 60 minute Iron Man Match.[7] These take a ton of atheticism and endurance. The longest ever wrestling match was 12 hours[8] The longest football game was what? a fourth of that? Three hours maybe?

As with football, pro wrestling carries it's fair share of injuries. Pitbull 1's broken neck[9], Shawn Michaels' broken back[10], Steve Austin's broken neck[11], Taz's broken neck[12], Mick Foley's second degree burns[13] and of course, Mick Foley losing his ear[14]. How many football players can say they have lost an ear or gotten 2nd degree burns while playing? That requires ALOT of will power to get through. If my opponent cannot answer the question of how many football players have lost an ear or gotten 2nd degree burns while playing, he will have to concede that wrestling is more antagonistic. He may have to concede as his answer to the question.

1. http://bleacherreport.com...

2. http://forums.wrestlezone.com...

3. http://guyspeed.com...

4. http://www.wrestlinginc.com...

5. http://www.wrestlinginc.com...

6. http://www.wwe.com...

7. https://www.youtube.com...

8. http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com...

9. https://www.youtube.com...

10. http://bleacherreport.com...

11. http://bleacherreport.com...

12. http://bleacherreport.com...

13. http://bleacherreport.com...

14. http://bleacherreport.com...
DarthVitiosus

Con

"While I'd be inclined to agree the same can be said for professional wrestling. It is called backstage politics in wrestling"

This is a false analogy fallacy[1]. My opponent is claiming that something that happens backstage is similar to an actual football game. The two are incomparable. The"backstage politics" my opponent is mentioning exists in every workplace where the personalities clash with one another. How is that comparable to when someone is actually trying to beat their opposing team on a football field? Pro wrestling results are scripted. Therefore there is nothing competitive about it.

[1]http://www.fallacyfiles.org...

"My opponent also asserts that football is antagonistic. So is professional wrestling. Every so often you will get a wrestler who is known as a stiff worker."


My opponent again has committed a false analogy fallacy[1]. A person who works stiffly has nothing to do with if the people are genuinely antagonistic. If they were genuinely antagonistic, there is a high chance someone would of been fired. The best example of this would be how William Regal refused to sell and be dominated by Goldberg[2]. As a result, Regal was fired and went to the WWF eventually. There is nothing genuinely antagonistic about pro wrestling, otherwise matches would not work. Pro wrestling inherently can not function if the wrestlers were antagonistic.

[2]http://www.pwinsider.com...



"Also sometimes, wrestling matches become real fights.....On the subject of fighting, sometimes things get so heated that fights occur back stage between wrestlers."

Sometimes wrestling matches become real fights? People who work at white collar jobs to waste management get into "real fights." What makes pro wrestling special? Every football game is real. How many pro wrestling matches are real?

"Not all wrestling matches last a few minutes."

This is a hasty generalization fallacy on the part of my opponent[3]. The average length of most main event matches tend to range between 10 to 30 minutes[4]. It is inconsequential that few a matches last more than that. We are discussing the standards not the rare exceptions. The average football game last more than that, 3 hours as I said before.

[3]http://www.nizkor.org...
[4]http://www.voicesofwrestling.com...

" Keep in mind that there were no breaks in between. In football, players get breaks in between quarters and time outs. Olympic Gold Medal wrestler, Kurt Angle and Former NCAA Champion and UFC champion, Brock Lessens also had a 60 minute Iron Man Match.[7] These take a ton of athleticism and endurance. The longest ever wrestling match was 12 hours[8] The longest football game was what? a fourth of that? Three hours maybe?"

We are comparing football athletes compared to pro wrestling actors. My opponent is suggesting that apparently an event where someone is allowed to pick up their opponent is the same is when a player intentionally hits someone as hard as they possibly can. That is silly. If a pile driver was used actually real with the intent to hurt, would a single match last more than two minutes? A pile driver is a pro wrestling move where one puts their opponent's head between their legs and picks them up and slams their head into the ground. It could be a career killer if used maliciously[5]. If this move was used with the intention to hurt along with most other pro wrestling moves; most pro wrestler would be injured after their first or second match.

An hour in a pro wrestling ring is not comparable to an hour on the football field. Pro wrestling is with actors frolicking about with the intent to entertain. Why would endurance even matter if my opponent isn't trying to hurt me? The football players have to actually run up and down a 100 yards. Players are actually trying to hurt each other on a football field. Football players are actually in a subtle competition to put a physical hurting on a quarterback.

[5]http://bleacherreport.com...



"How many football players can say they have lost an ear or gotten 2nd degree burns while playing? That requires ALOT of will power to get through. If my opponent cannot answer the question of how many football players have lost an ear or gotten 2nd degree burns while playing, he will have to concede that wrestling is more antagonistic. He may have to concede as his answer to the question."

My opponent has further displayed a sense of recklessness thus far when comparing pro wrestling to football. Pro wrestling is inherently not antagonistic. How could a pro wrestling move be even done if someone doesn't allow it to happen? Look at the video example I provided at how William Regal purposefully resists Goldberg to some extent on some moves and those moves are never completed. If pro wrestling was actually antagonistic, there would be no chance of a single pro wrestling move even being allowed from their opponent. There is nothing generally antagonistic about pro wrestling. It is acting after all with the conclusion determined long before the match. If it was actually antagonistic, the conclusion could not of been predetermined. My opponent will have to concede this point if he affirms that pro wrestling is predetermined. Is pro wrestling predetermined? The facts say yes.

Antagonistic:"showing dislike or opposition[6]"
[6]http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Debate Round No. 2
kingcripple

Pro

My opponent just doesn't seem to get it. On the subject of backstage politics, this IS in fact an example of the competiveness of professional wrestling. Performing as a main event player to get your boss to notice you and give you a title, IS competiveness.

On the subject of whether my examples of stiff workers and actual fights breaking out between wrestlers both in the ring and behind the scenes, that shows the antagonistic nature of professional wrestling. Example would be, if you are playing basketball and someone elbows you in the back or side, would you not consider that antagonistc? You are not supposed to elbow other players in basketball, likewise you are not supposed to work stiff (actually hitting opponents and sandbagging them, etc) in professional wrestling. The only difference between the two, is unless done covertly, outright hitting another player in basketball is an illegal tactic, whereas, working stiff in wrestling is just bad etiquette. On the other hand bumping and covertly knocking another basketball player is, like working stiff, bad etiquette

Now my opponent wants to say that professional wrestlers are not athletes. Again to the contrary. While many are not wrestling athletes such as Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, or Shelton Benjamin, many others have a background in football, like The Rock, and even softball and soccer like the Bella Twins. My opponent is just being silly and uninformed about this.

Why would endurance matter? While pro wrestling is a show, you, unless certain things pre match stipulate it, you still do not want to appear gassed. Likewise you do not want to appear drugged as Jeff Hardy did against Sting at Victory Road 2011[1], but I digress. Endurance MATTERS! You would not be putting on the show you are supposed to put on, if you are slowly trotting around the ring breathing heavily, letting the audience know you have bad cardio.

How can something be done in pro wrestling if someone doesnt allow it to happen? Easily. Accidents happen. Each of the examples I provided were accidents. Sure there is risk involved in these matches, but it certainly is not planned. Someone can land the wrong way.

[1] https://www.youtube.com...
DarthVitiosus

Con

"My opponent just doesn't seem to get it. On the subject of backstage politics, this IS in fact an example of the competiveness of professional wrestling. Performing as a main event player to get your boss to notice you and give you a title, IS competiveness."

No my opponent does not get it. When Russell Wilson won the Superbowl with the Seattle Seahawks, they won the game based on their abilities and skills. When the German national team won FIFA earlier this year, it was based on their skills and abilities. The World Series is happening right now and both the Royals and the Giants got to the World Series based on their skills and abilities. When Brock Lesnar beat Undertaker at Wrestlemania earlier this year, it was not because of his skills and abilities. Brock Lesnar won because management and the WWE creative team wanted him to win.

That is not competitive, it was what we appropriately term "nepotism" and "favoritism." There is nothing competitive about nepotism and favoritism. My opponent may attempt to claim that they have to be skilled to be on the show. Again, not true. What was the show of skills was there between Hollywood Hogan and Kevin Nash in the "Finger Poke of Doom" moment? What was the show of skills by the Michael Cole versus Jerry Lawler match at Wrestlemania[1]? There is nothing competitive about it, there is only favoritism and nepotism. Then on top of that the pro wrestler do not win based on skills or abilities, therefore they are not competitive.

[1]http://411mania.com...



"On the subject of whether my examples of stiff workers and actual fights breaking out between wrestlers both in the ring and behind the scenes, that shows the antagonistic nature of professional wrestling. Example would be, if you are playing basketball and someone elbows you in the back or side, would you not consider that antagonistc? You are not supposed to elbow other players in basketball, likewise you are not supposed to work stiff (actually hitting opponents and sandbagging them, etc) in professional wrestling. The only difference between the two, is unless done covertly, outright hitting another player in basketball is an illegal tactic, whereas, working stiff in wrestling is just bad etiquette. On the other hand bumping and covertly knocking another basketball player is, like working stiff, bad etiquette"

My opponent does not seem to understand. It is against the law for them to "shoot." Professional wrestling promoters will be fined if they do attempt to do it and an inspector or the athletic commission finds out. In order for any professional wrestling show to go on, a professional wrestling promoter must obtain a permit stating that the wrestlers aren't actually attempting to hurt one another at all[2]. If anything happens that previously was not stated in their forms during the show, they may not only have to pay a fine but it will be extremely difficult for them to get another permit to do another show in that state.

[2]http://dpr.delaware.gov...

"Now my opponent wants to say that professional wrestlers are not athletes. Again to the contrary. While many are not wrestling athletes such as Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, or Shelton Benjamin, many others have a background in football, like The Rock, and even softball and soccer like the Bella Twins. My opponent is just being silly and uninformed about this."

I would ask my opponent to stop being silly here. For every professional wrestler he points out that is fit, I can point to many more professional wrestlers that are unfit. My opponent assumes Vince McMahon's tastes of bodybuilder physiques and model-like women represent the industry. It doesn't represent the industry, the WWE is only the leading company in the industry. He mentions the Rock, Kurt Angle, Shelton Benjamin, and the Bella Twins. Big Show, Brodus Clay, Kevin Steen, and Amazing Kong were out of shape. Clearly, my opponent is uninformed about professional wrestling industry. If my opponent wants to go tit for tat, I will be able to point out far more non-athletic professional wrestlers in the industry compared to the few who are athletes.

"Why would endurance matter? While pro wrestling is a show, you, unless certain things pre match stipulate it, you still do not want to appear gassed. Likewise you do not want to appear drugged as Jeff Hardy did against Sting at Victory Road 2011[1], but I digress. Endurance MATTERS! You would not be putting on the show you are supposed to put on, if you are slowly trotting around the ring breathing heavily, letting the audience know you have bad cardio."

This is a hasty generalization fallacy on the part of my opponent[3]. That match is not representative of anything. Nor does it have to do anything with endurance either. Jeff Hardy was drunk when he shouldn't of been. What does this have to do with endurance? Endurance does not matter in professional wrestling. Why do so many obese people do professional wrestling?

[3]http://www.nizkor.org...

"How can something be done in pro wrestling if someone doesnt allow it to happen? Easily. Accidents happen. Each of the examples I provided were accidents. Sure there is risk involved in these matches, but it certainly is not planned. Someone can land the wrong way."

That is not a contrary point to what I said. I will repeat it again:

"How could a pro wrestling move be even done if someone doesn't allow it to happen? Look at the video example I provided at how William Regal purposefully resists Goldberg to some extent on some moves and those moves are never completed. If pro wrestling was actually antagonistic, there would be no chance of a single pro wrestling move even being allowed from their opponent. "
Debate Round No. 3
kingcripple

Pro

In closing, as per the rules, I cannot make any arguments this round. I would however like to thank my opponent for a pretty good debate. To end the debate let's look at the following points

1. My opponent brought up how football is antagonistic. I fail to see how this is relevent to the debate of pro wrestlers being better athletes than football players, but i bit, and dismantled his argument by showing how, while choreographed, pro wrestling is antagonistic as well.

2. My opponent claims football is competetive and pro wrestling is not. Again, I successfully showed how pro wrestling was competetive.

3. I showed how Wrestlers must have endurance, which is an athletic trait.

4. I showed how wrestlers are prone to in ring injuries and their ability to fight through them, showing their toughness, again, an athletic trait

5. I showed how wrestlers compete more often than football players, often times more than once a day. Again endurance.

Again thanks to my opponent and vote pro
DarthVitiosus

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for hosting this interesting debate. I will repeat my five points here again for a review.

1. Football players play competitively.

This point stands as is. I showed how football was competitve with teams winning the Superbowl and actually competing. While my opponent pointed out how it is "competitive" backstage. In my arguments, I exposed this for being nepotism and favoritism, this has nothing to do with competition.

2. Football is actually antagonistic.

I showed how football players can be genuinely hostile towards each other.This add to the intentsity of the games athelticism when one is trying literally to take out one's opposing team members. My opponent referred to "stiff" matches. I showed how that was illegal and against the sports entertainment permit that a pro wrestling company is liscensed.

3. Football games demand far greater endurance and physical athleticism.

I showed how football players have to compete for longer periods and require greater endurance. My opponent pointed irrepresentative examples of long pro wrestling matches which was fallacious.

If you have come to the conclusion that Pro has failed to uphold the resolution, Vote Con please.
Debate Round No. 4
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