The Instigator
OGough
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
THEBOMB
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

Professor X is the most powerful mutant from the x-men series.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
THEBOMB
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/18/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,858 times Debate No: 22960
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (1)

 

OGough

Pro

Please understand that this is my first debate (so i'm easy pickings for most of you), so I decided to do a simple and fun debate so I can get used to the format of this site and hopefully not get slaughtered to quickly. This means that I will almost certainly make mistakes in my lingo, conduct, and argument as a whole among many other things; any comments on this will be very much appreciated. Thank you, and I look forward to a fun debate.

Professor X (Charles Xavier) is the highest level of telopath. This gives him several outstanding abilities which put him above the ability of every other character in the marvel series. These ability's include; mind reading which incorporates the ability to change peoples views (changing a decision or belief of a person) and even creating or deleting memory's; the ability to enter the astral plane and effect members on this plane; the ability to create emotions in his victims (including positive i.e. joy, and negative i.e misery) as well as using this power to create incredible pain in his enemy; and finally the mental capacity to kill if necessary.

All these powers work on an international scale (they are not effected by distance) at any time and can be used against several different beings at the same time.

These powers can then be enhanced by plugging himself into Cerebro; allowing him to use his powers on a lager number of beings (the world's population if necessarily)

This results in a character which is incredibly hard to kill or harm in any way and can remove any enemy's very easily.

To conclude we end up with a character who is more powerful than any other mutant in the x men series. Actually I would go as far as to call him first class ;)
THEBOMB

Con

I thank my opponent for this debate and I shall be arguing the most powerful mutant is Jean Grey also known as Phoenix. I also wish my opponent good luck and hope they have a good stay on DDO.

Jean Grey, along with Charles Xavier, is an Omega Class mutant meaning they have the most powerful mutations. But, Jean Grey is more powerful than Xavier simply because as well as having powerful telepathy (rivaling Xavier's telepathy) and telekinesis she has a plethora of other abilities.

Here is an overview of the extent of Jean Grey's powers (1):

1) Telepathy
2) Telekinesis (later developing into telekinetic sensitivity)
3) Ability to travel unaided through space
4) Ability to physically manipulate any kind of matter and energy
5) Ability to create cosmic fire
6) Ability to resurrect from death and manipulate the lives of others
7) Ability to manipulate timelines

Now the first two of these powers are fairly straight forward. Her telepathy is powerful enough to "read, influence, control, and communicate with the minds of others, project her mind into the astral plane, and generate telepathic force blasts that can stun or kill others. Jean is one of the few telepaths skilled enough to communicate with animals...She can also telepathically take away or control people's natural bodily functions and senses, such as sight, hearing, smell, taste, or even mutant powers" (1) As time goes on, Jean's telepathy develops to become so powerful she can "manifest her telepathy as a psionic firebird whose claws can inflict both physical and mental damage." (1) Jean Grey's telepathy eventually surpasses that of Charles Xavier. Even without the aid of her other powers, Jean Grey is many times more powerful than Charles Xavier.

Her telekinesis abilities are fairly straighforward. Jean-Grey has the ability to create "shields and energy blasts" she later can "feel the texture of objects, their molecular patterns, feel when other objects come into contact with them, and probe them at a molecular level." (1) This is something which Charles Xavier is simply unable to do.

From the rest of these abilities the most important one is probably number 6. Simply because this allows Jean (as Phoenix) to "revive, absorb, rechannel, and preserve the life-force of any kind of life-form, meaning that she can take life energy from one person and give it to others, heal herself with the same life energy, or even resurrect the dead." (1) Jean-Grey can kill anyone she pleases as that is one of her abilities. These abilities are not seen by any other mutant. Only Jean-Grey. No other mutant has these kind of powers.

With her ability to create cosmic fire, Jean-Grey can burn through anything. Nothing can stop the fire as it can burn underwater and does not require oxygen. With this ability matter is completely "destroyed" the fire leaves no ash, nothing.

Jean can "rearrange matter at a subatomic level, fly unaided through space, survive in any atmosphere, and manipulate electromagnetic and cosmic energies for various effects and atmospheric disturbances. She can also create stargates that can transport her to anywhere in the universe instantaneously" (1). There is literally no stopping her.

When it comes down to it, Professor X is an extremely powerful mutant but, Jean-Grey's powers are almost incalculable. To put it bluntly, she can basically do anything she pleases. Literally, nothing can stop her. She cannot die forever, as she has the ability to resurrect herself. As Phoenix, nothing can stop Jean-Grey. Seeing how I have found a character which is much more powerful than Charles Xavier, the resolution is defeated.

Sources:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
OGough

Pro

To be honest I agree with allot of points that my opponent has stated, but none of them answer the question, and therefore his argument is rendered completely irrelevant.

After Jean Gray had been 'touched' by the phoenix where the Phoenix force and herself combined; her powers became almost limitless, far exceeding the powers of Charles Xavier. To use your own words 'As Phoenix, nothing can stop Jean Gray'. But this is where the issue stands with your argument; as for you to prove that Professor X is not the most powerful mutant, you first have to prove that Jean Gray the living mutant and the Phoenix the entity created as a child of the universe are one and the same thing. And if you fail to prove this then it renders all your points in round 1 useless.

So to get on with the matter in hand. Is Gene Gray and the Phoenix one and the same things; and if they can be argued to be the same person, can they be defined as a 'mutant'.

Jean Gray discovered her powers after a painful childhood event at the age of 10; which awoke her powers and discovered that she was a mutant. At that time her powers were very weak and she needed training so she could expand those powers; which came from Charles Xavier. At the same time the Phoenix force was traveling through space after being involved in a conflict between Feron and Necrom; in which she had combined with Feron to create the phoenix. So at the beginning of their life's I think we can easily agree that Jean Gray and the Phoenix force were not the same entity.

It was some 25 years after Jean's birth was the actual first time that the phoenix force and Jean came into contact. This occurred while Jean was out in space using her weak telepathic to try and control the spaceship which some of the x-men were travelling on back into the earths atmosphere. And although she achieved this feat, she was to weak to protect herself from the radiation in space. The Phoenix force had been in space at this point, waiting to try and enter earth; and seeing this event decided to touch Gene so that the two of them would combined. http://www.just-marvel-x-men.com... (that's the original page from the marvel comic)

This proves that Jean and the Pheonix force are not one and the same thing; instead that the Phoenix is a separate entity which recognized that Jean would be a good vessel to enter earth in.

You could try to argue that Jean uses the phoenix as a weapon which means she is more powerful that Professor X; but this seems a very weak method as it fails to answer the original question which quite obviously is interested in the mutants themselves. In the same way you can't argue that a bad guy with a machine gun is better than James bond; if you are only comparing the characters themselves.

But lets's say you let those pretty daunting issues slide by some unknown method and continue down the same path that Jean Gray is the Phoenix; then your faced with the issue that is the Phoenix when combined with Jean Gray a 'mutant'.

A mutant according to Marvel is a living organism which has a genetic trait called an x-gene. But after Jean and the Phoenix have combined Jean can no longer defined as a human or a living organism (this is stated when Scott talks to her about these new powers she has found as he is her love interest, and she admits she no longer believes she is a living creature)

So to conclude I think you argument is irrelevant as it is incredibly hard to prove that Jean and the Phoenix force are the same thing; and even if you do they are not defined as a 'mutant' (which is obviously required for the question).

I suggest my opponent tries selecting another character on which to attempt to trump the incredible power of Profesor X.

http://en.wikipedia.org...(comics)
http://www.just-marvel-x-men.com...
http://www.milehighcomics.com...
THEBOMB

Con

I have enjoyed this debate, thus far, and hope it continues to be as enjoyable. Thank you PRO.

My opponent fails to touch my analysis of how even without the Phoenix Force; Jean-Grey's powers of telepathy and telekinesis surpass those of Charles Xavier making her the most powerful telepath. Since my opponent has dropped this argument, the only way to vote is CON.

The rest of my opponent's attack centers around the Phoenix Force.

Attack 1. Phoenix Force =/= Jean Grey

Jean Grey acts as "a Phoenix Force avatar" (1). An avatar (according to Hinduism) is a real life representation of a deity to the earth. The Phoenix force is a deity and Jean Grey acts as its avatar. In other words, Jean Grey is both woman and "godly." This duel personality disorder (if you can call it that) is inherently seen when Jean Grey has a mental battle between herself as her own psyche and…herself, as the Phoenix Force. (1) They are two personalities in the same mind, two entities in the same body. Thus, they are two beings in one body, or just, one being with two separate minds. Whether or not Jean Grey is just a vessel is irrelevant, the Phoenix Force is still contained within her mind and body thus, she can utilize any "powers" given to her.

Attack 2. Does not fit definition of mutant

According to Marvel, "a mutant"…"is a living organism which has a genetic trait called an x-gene." So how is Jean not an organism exactly? She may be inherently part deity, but, she is still also part human. She is inherently an organism with the "x-gene." Later, she is an organism with the "x-gene" and the Phoenix Force.

Attack 3. Weapon

Charles Xavier is defined by his abilities. Jean Grey is defined by her abilities. Jean Grey is defined by the fact she "has" the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is not a weapon. It is an inherent part of her.

To sum up, my opponent has failed to touch my analysis of Jean Grey's telepathy and telekinesis. My opponent has failed to adequately attack the rest of my case, concerning the Phoenix Force, This leads to a CON win in this debate.

Source:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
OGough

Pro

To your first point. Jean Gray is not more powerful than Professor X without the Phoenix force; which I took that as something that did not need to be proven.. If I quote from the man who was voted x-men's biggest fan from 2002-2007; 'professor x is the most powerful telepath on the planet' (1). Now Jean does also have telekinesis, which is certainly valuable; but a power like this would not be taken into consideration if the two great mutants were to face each other as if Charles could overwhelm Jean's mind then her powers would no use to her, if anything they could be a threat as they could be used against her. In multiple issues Charles helps and teaches Jean, as his powers and knowledge exceed those of Jean's, so he therefore has experience which he can offer to the girl. And for this reason I think it is unreasonable to argue that Jean is more powerful than Professor X.

Attack 1. My opponent states that 'Jean is just a vessel', but then believes that this is reliant; as it still constitutes as Jean being the most powerful mutant in the series. But surely this proves that JEAN GRAY (the mutant which my opponent argues is more powerful than the Professor) is not actually the being with the power. When ships full of Greeks soldiers landed on Troas, it was not the ships which the Trojans feared but the unstoppable force which was inside them. Jean Gray is simply a ship. She does have strong powers, but it is the force of the Phoenix which gives her the 'Can do anything she want's' ability. So then my opponent is arguing that these two different beings when brought together are more powerful than the professor; which is true but does not fur fill the criteria of the question as we quite plainly are talking about one being alone. So the only option my opponent is left with is to argues that the two beings on there own are more powerful. Which is another poor path to attempt to tread; as I have already proved that Jean herself is less powerful than the professor and the Phoenix force is not a 'mutant'. So to conclude, it is not possible to argue that the Phoenix and Jean are one and the same thing; and even harder to argue that they on there own are more powerful.

Attack 2. My main point on this is the fact that Jean herself argues that she is 'not alive' (see my previous link) which is a principle part of the definition of a mutant which you yourself gave me; therefore the phoenix combined with Jean IS NOT A MUTANT. So even if you continue to try and argue that Jean is the more powerful than the professor it is irrelevant as it fails to fur fill the demands of the question in hand.

Attack 3. You yourself defined Jean as only a 'vessel', so by your own description Jean can't 'have the phoenix' as they contradict each other. Therefore my weapon argument still stands.

To cocclude. I have proven beyond doubt that Jean Gray and the Phoenix are not the same thing and can't be regarded as a single being therefore is irrelevant to the question; and i have proven that Jean Gray and the Phoenix alone are not more powerful than the Professor. And finally but by far most significantly that even if we ignore the gaping holes in the argument that Jean is the Phoenix, that this being is NOT A MUTANT as it admits to not being alive and therefore is not a life form. And therefore that my opponents argument is not relevant to the resolution.

Vote Pro.

Thank you THE BOMB, you have given me a very enjoyable first debate; and I clearly have allot to learn from you.
THEBOMB

Con

I thank my opponent for such a fun debate and I will continue.

Defense 1. Jean is more powerful with only telepathy

My opponent makes a simply appeal to authority without providing any analysis. How can we know for sure the biggest fan is a legitimate source? He appeals to the populous because ultimately it is they who treat it as such.

Before I begin my actual defense I would like to point out that the reader can only vote on the evidence presented within the context of this debate. They are not allowed to vote based on their previous biases or knowledge. I clearly showed the extent of Jean-Grey's powers are at least equal to Xavier's and that as time progresses, her powers surpass Xavier's. Jean-Grey has the ability to mentally cause physical damage. There is no evidence presented that Xavier can do the same. Jean-Grey has the ability to communicate with animals, there is no evidence presented that Xavier can do the same. Furthermore, Jean-Grey's telekinesis allows her to manipulate the matter around Charles Xavier. If caught unaware, metal will render his telepathy useless.

Defense 1.

As I stated above, Jean-Grey is more of an Avatar rather than a vessel. My opponent misquotes me the full text is "Whether or not Jean Grey is just a vessel is irrelevant." In no way shape or form did I conclusively say Jean-Grey is just a vessel. I defined Jean-Grey as 2 psyche's in one body and mind (two which is one). Jean-Grey cannot simply remove the Phoenix Force from her without causing tremendous damage to her psyche and well being. My opponent cannot be so rash in saying the Phoenix Force should be irrelevant when it is quite literally half of Jean-Grey's identity. I mean, I'm definitely stronger than my opponent if we only consider half of his body. This is what my opponent is doing here, limiting Jean-Grey to half her psyche. The Phoenix Force is part of her identity. There is no reason to disallow it.

Defense 2.

My opponent had the Burden to prove Jean-Grey was not human. They have not brought up any "genetic" evidence which show Jean is non-human, even though we have a geneticist in the picture (Charles Xavier). Simply put, this is an unsubstantiated claim which is not supported by any conclusive comic book evidence. Simply because she does not believe she is human, does not mean she is not human. She could easily be wrong. There is no evidence backing this claim.

Defense 3.

My opponent completely strawman's my position here. I never defined Jean-Grey in that way. I merely said her being a vessel is irrelevant. The Phoenix Force is part of Jean's identity just as telepathy is part of Xavier's identity. Jean-Grey would be less without the Phoenix Force, Xavier would be less without telepathy. You cannot take away a vital piece of the character otherwise, it is not the same character. My opponent cannot argue we are debating about two characters and then avoid the fundamental piece of one of the two. The Phoenix Force is what makes Jean-Grey, Jean-Grey.

To conclude, the Phoenix Force is a fundamental part of Jean-Grey's identity and character. My opponent has provided no evidence that Jean-Grey is not human. My opponent has not refuted my argument that Jean-Grey and the Phoenix Force are "two in one." Two separate beings in one body. Constituting one mutant, with two psyches.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by OGough 2 years ago
OGough
i gave it my best shot..
Posted by THEBOMB 2 years ago
THEBOMB
who knows why? :P but, I believe I provided a pretty compelling case :D
Posted by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
Darn! Why did I miss this one?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
OGoughTHEBOMBTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: I agree with Pro's dismissal of the phoenix force as a relevant aspect of Jean's powers; Con's "one body with two minds" argument only serves to further demonstrate that the phoenix operates independently on at least some level from Jean. That said, Con's sources explain that Jean's telepathic and telekinetic abilities exist even when separated from the phoenix. As her telepathy is comparable to that of Prof. X, her telekinetic powers put her over the edge. Arguments and sources to Con.