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Julia5678
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The Contender
HardRockHallelujah
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Prophet Muhammad (sawa) is Prophesied in The Bible

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/23/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 523 times Debate No: 78967
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Julia5678

Pro

In The Name of Allah; The Most Compassionate, The Most Merciful

The Muslims and Christians have a never-ending argument over the Bible. The Muslims say that Prophet Muhammad (sawa) has been prophesied in the Scriptures. However, Christians , knowingly or unknowingly, disagree and claim that the Promised Prophet is Jesus Christ (a.s), the Messiah, the Son of Mary to conceal the truth.

"Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it]." (The Quran 2:146)

But who say the Truth? Who is the Promised Prophet?

We read in the gospel of John,
"When the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No." (John 1:19:21)

From the gospel of John, the Jews were waiting for the fulfillment of three distinct prophecies:
1. The Coming of Jesus
2. The Coming of Elijah/Elias [1]
3. The Coming of The Prophet

According to the above verses, the Prophet whom Jews were waiting for was neither Jesus nor Elias, because after John denied being them, they asked him if he was "The Prophet". And it's really strange that John the Baptist himself didn't know that he was Eijah!! [2]

Muslims claim that the Promised Prophet refers to Prophet Muhammad (sawa) who was foretold by Moses (a.s) as follow:

"The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy 18:15:18)

From these verse, we conclude that:
1. The Promised Prophet will be like Moses.
2. He will come from the brethren of the Israelities.
3. God will put His words into his mouth and he will declare what God orders him.

The Prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:18 could fit nobody else except Prophet Muhammad (sawa). However Christians quote the Bible to prove that Jesus was like Moses;

"And that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus.... For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you." (Acts 4:20-22)

On the contrary, The Quran says that Muhammad is similar to Moses!

"Indeed, We have sent to you a Messenger (referring to Muhammad) as a witness upon you just as We sent to Pharaoh a messenger (referring to Moses)." (the Quran 73:15)

But who is like Moses, Jesus or Prophet Muhammad (sawa)?!

1. Muhammad is like Moses:
- Both Moses and Muhammad (sawa) had natural birth. They were born in a normal way and had parents. But Jesus had a miracluous birth from his mother without having father.
- Both Moses and Muhammad (sawa) had natural death. They were buried. But Jesus was raisen to heaven.
- Both Moses and Muhammad (sawa) were the prophets of new dispensation. All prophets among the Israelities including Jesus didn't bring new religious laws. Jesus himself came to fulfill and follow the laws of Moses. (According to Matthew 5:17-19)
- Both Moses and Muhammad (sawa) did encounter their enemies and had vicory over them. But we fail to see any physical battle between Jesus and his enemies.
- Both Moses and Muhammad got married and had children. But Jesus had been a bachelor all his life.
- The leadership of Moses was accepted by people during his life. The same is true for Muhammad (sawa). But Jesus often complained that his leadership was resisted.
- Both Moses and Muhammad (sawa) were prophets of God. But Christians regard Jesus as the Son of God, or even God. So if the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy is Jesus, the Christians must admit that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet.

The only similarity between Moses and Jesus is that they both were from the Israelities and it doesn't fit this prophecy.

2. Muhammad is from the brethren of the Ishmaelities.

"Among their brethren" clearly refers to a nation other than the Israelites; otherwise it should have been "amongst yourselves."

First let's see how the Old Testament introduces Ishmael.
"And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." (Genesis 16:12-14)

The Torah has said that Ishmael is the brother of the Israelities so his descendants can be their brethren as well. We know as a fact that the the Ishmaelities dwelt in Arabia [3] And Kedar was the second son of Ishmael and the father of Kedarites. [4].

The Kedarites (also known as "Quraish" in Arabic) were the powerful tribe of Arabia, from the descendants of Kedar. And Prophet Muhammad was born into the"Banu Hashim clan of the Quraish tribe. [5]
So Abraham, Ishhael and Kedar were ancestors of Muhammad (sawa). As a result, the prophet from the brethren of Ishmealities refers to Muhammad, and not Jesus.

But some Christians claim that Isaac had also two sons, Esau and Jacob, who was later called Israel. As Moses was the descendant of Israel, this prophecy could be talking about Jesus, who could be among the children of Israel's brethren. So if Jesus was a descendant of Esau that would classify him as the brethren of the Israelities.

First of all, we must know that the genealogy of Jesus written in Matthew is false. Because Jesus was the son of Mary and he is not related to Joseph at all.
Secondly, Mary is the daughter of 'Imran, whose lineage extends to Aaron, who is a Levite. Levites are grandsons of Levi, one of the twelve sons of Jacob. So, Mary, as well, is an Israelite, and Jesus has nothing to do with Esau, the brother of Jacob. "Their brethren" could refer only to the descendants of Ishmael."

3. God puts His Words into the mouth of Muhammad

The Quran itself is a miracle. Because we know as a fact that Muhammad (sawa) was unlettered and uneducated. He could neither write nor read.
The way the revelation came to Prophet Muhammad (sawa) was that Gabriel would come to him and dictate to him and then Muhammad would simply recites what was said to him. Muhammad was not the author of the Quran, as many people make this mistake. He is not the author of the Quran, nor did he it, and he was not even using his own intellect and knowledge when he recited the Quran. He was simply repeating what Gabriel was saying. This is not a hidden secret. It continued for 23 years in the presence of hundreds of followers and that the Quran was committed directly to memory in his presence as well as in writing. What could be a more beautiful explanation of the phrase "put My words in his mouth"? That God was putting the words in the mouth of Prophet Muhammad; that he was repeating what was exactly dictated to him.

Jesus received the revelation. But he spoke in his own words. Only the Quran contains the very word of God. He talks to us directly through the Quran. My opponent was a Muslim one day. So he probably understands what I am talking about.

And this is exactly what the Quran says,

"By the star when it descends, Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, Nor does he speak from his own inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed," (the Quran 53:1-4)

My opponent was Muslim one day. So he knows that the Quran contains 114 chapters called Surah and 113 of these chapters start with "In the name of Allah" (Bismillahi ar-Rahman ar-Raheem). And this is exactly what the Torah says:

"I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.'" (Deuteronomy 18:19-20)

Prophet Muhammad (sawa) recited the Quran in the name of God, just as Prophet Moses foretold.

So each Christian MUST LISTEN TO Muhammad (sawa), as Moses ordered them to do so.

"You must listen to him." (Deuteronomy 18:15)

The Quran and even the authentic parts of the Bible prove that this prophecy is about Prophet Muhammad.
In my next argument, I will present historical evidence about Kedarities and mention more prophecies about Prophet Muhammad to confirm this one.

Thanks. :)

[1] Prophesied in Malachi 4:5
[2] Matthew 11:14; 17:10-13
[3] Galantians 4:25
[4] Genesis 25:12-16
[5] https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
HardRockHallelujah

Con

Well i'll just get started right away...now why is this topic so important for Islam? Is this just argued for by Muslims, because they just want to provide "additional" evidence for Muhammad's prophet-hood beyond what the Qur'an provides as evidence for Muhammad? No, in the Qur'an itself, Muhammad, or whoever authored the Qur'an, made the claim that Muhammad's coming as a prophet, was prophesied in the previous scriptures, namely the Torah and the Gospel....

"Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong." (7:157, Pickthall translation)

"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One (Ahmad[i.e Muhammad])." (61:6, Pickthall translation)

I want to focus attention to what Surah 7:157 says, it says that we Christians and Jews find Muhammad in the scriptures that we have access to, so Pro can't argue that Christians have removed these prophecies, because that's not what the verse says.

But I just want to be clear...this has to be met, this challenge has to be met, Julia has to successfully meet the challenge of Surah 7:157. If Muhammad was wrong about this, then Muhammad is a false prophet (claiming something that's not true while claiming to speak under inspiration, that's a clear mark of a false prophet).

With that said, I will respond to what Julia tried to argue:

1. Julia argued that in John 1:19-21, the Jews were looking for 3 individuals: Elijah, the Christ, and the Prophet. And suggested Muhammad was that prophet they were looking for.

My response: If the prophet to come was an Arab...why are they asking John the Baptist if he was the prophet? Was he an Arab? No, he was an Israelite, the Jews were aware that this prophet to come was going to be an Israelite, not someone from Arabia. And you must realize that the Jews were wrong in thinking the prophet was someone other than the Christ. Because later in the same chapter, Phillip recognizes that the prophet who was to come was Jesus of Nazareth. So Jesus was the Christ AND the prophet, the Jews were just wrong in assuming they were two different individuals.
Therefore, Muhammad can't be that Prophet, because he wasn't an Israelite, like the Jews were expecting, and Jesus is that Prophet according to his disciple Phillip.

2. Julia quoted Deuteronomy 18:15-18 and said that there was prophet who was to come like Moses and tried to give similarities between Moses and Muhammad to show that Muhammad was that prophet like Moses.

My response: Remember, I don't have to prove Jesus is the prophet like Moses, I only have to show it's not Muhammad. Julia has completely missed the point of EVERYTHING Moses was trying to say. All of the similarities she gave are completely irrelevant to how Deuteronomy defines the term "like Moses".
Here is what Deuteronomy says concerning what it means to be like Moses:

1) You must be an Israelite (Deuteronomy 17:15)
2) You must get your revelations from God face to face (Deuteronomy 34:10)
3) You must perform signs and wonders (Deuteronomy 34:11)

Muhammad did not meet even one of these criteria, he completely struck out.
That he wasn't an Israelite is obvious. That he didn't speak to God face to face is evident from the fact that he claimed to receive his revelations from Angel Jibreel. That he didn't do miracles is written all over the Qur'an (6:37, 6:109, 10:20, 13:7, 28:48).
Therefore, Muhammad is not the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:15-18.

That's all I got from Pro, now onto my next set of points...

I will now deal with an amazingly silly accusations that were just made by Julia towards Jews and Christians.

Julia said that "However, Christians , knowingly or unknowingly, disagree and claim that the Promised Prophet is Jesus Christ (a.s), the Messiah, the Son of Mary to conceal the truth."

My response: We Christians aren't hiding anything...unless you can provide me with your evidence of what we are hiding, instead of just baselessly accusing us of doing so. You can't throw the Bible under the bus just because it disagrees with your theology. EVEN if the Bible has been corrupted, that doesn't mean that it originally supported Islam. Again, if you're going to accuse Christians of supposedly "hiding" the prophecies of Muhammad, provide the evidence that we are doing so.

Now I will move onto some additional points Julia brought up:

Julia said "So if the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy is Jesus, the Christians must admit that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet."

My response: Julia just committed the fallacy known as "false dilemma". A false dilemma is when you offer two possibilites, and present it as if those are the only two possible possibilities to chose from, when in fact, there are more options. Also known as the "either or" fallacy. Julia said that if Jesus was the prophet like Moses than he can't be God, the other option was that if Jesus was God, then he can't be a prophet.
What Julia fails to take into consideration is that we Christians believe that God took on human flesh and appeared in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. And we believe that God is a Trinity. Jesus is the Son, he is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. A prophet is simply a messenger who speaks the message of God to human beings. Jesus being incarnated as a man, was a prophet, because he was teaching his disciples the message from the Father, so just because Jesus is God, does NOT mean that he also can't be a prophet, because we aren't Unitarians, we are Trinitarians.

Julia said: "Among their brethren" clearly refers to a nation other than the Israelites; otherwise it should have been "amongst yourselves."

My response: Again, if Julia is going to quote any text, she must allow the text to define its terms, Deuteronomy (the book she is quoting) doesn't define "brethren" the way Julia defines it.
Deuteronomy 17:15 explicitly defines "brethren" as a fellow Israelite, not a foreigner, and ironically, the text itself says that a foreigner is NOT a brethren, so her interpretation is directly refuted in the chapter immediately before chapter 18.

Julia said "What could be a more beautiful explanation of the phrase "put My words in his mouth"? That God was putting the words in the mouth of Prophet Muhammad; that he was repeating what was exactly dictated to him."

My response: Like I said before, if you're going to quote a text, allow it to define its terms. What "putting my words into his mouth" means is not when an mysterious Angel comes to Muhammad and force feeds him words from the Qur'an ( his first encounter is portrayed like this, he was forced to read the Qur'an by the mysterious visiter).
That's not what's in view in Deuteronomy, for God to put his words into his mouth means that the prophet will speak everything he hears from God directly, not through dreams, not through visions, much less through an angelic medium. The proof for this is Exodus 33:11, which confirms that Moses spoke with God face to face, much like a man talks with his friend face to face.

So to summarize, Muhammad is not the prophet of John 1:19-21, because he was not an Israelite, like the text said. Muhammad is not the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18, because he was not an Israelite, didn't speak to God directly, and din't do miracles like Moses did, all of which was required of the prophet who was to be like Moses.
Debate Round No. 1
Julia5678

Pro

Thank you so much for posting your argument. But don't you think it's too soon to summerize?!

My opponent claimed that if Prophet Muhammad (sawa) is not mentioned in the Bible, then he's a false prophet.
And I say that if he is prophesied in the Bible, so the Bible is surely corrupted. Because those who re-wrote and changed this book wanted Christians to think that the Promised Prophet is Jesus and not Muhammad (sawa). And it is a clear evidence that the authors of the Bible and those who interpret it falsely "concealed the truth while they knew it." (the Quran 2:146)

We know as a fact that that the Promised Prophet in John 1 is the same Prophet whom Moses prophesied in Deut. 18.

My opponent, without giving any proofs, clamied that the Jews were wrong in assuming that the Christ and the prophet are two distinct persons. He also claimed that if the Promised Prophet was an Ishmaelite, then they wouldn't ask an Israelite if he was him.

Well, if we want to suppose that the Jews were wrong, what can prevent us from thinking that they were wrong in assuming that the Prophet must be an Israelite? They may have forgotten that Moses said the Prophet would come from Paran (Mecca). That's why Jesus came to remind people that a prophet would come from the east. Or maybe they didn't know where the Prophet come from, that's why they asked John.

There are some historical evidence that shows Arab Jews were waiting for an Arab prophet. And this exctly what God says in the Quran 7:157. The Jews were expecting the coming of an Arab Prophet as prophesied in the Torah. But when Prophet Muhammad (sawa) came, some of them disbelieved in him and other Jews followed him,

"Say, 'Have you considered: if the Qur'an was from Allah, and you disbelieved in it while a witness from the Children of Israel has testified to something similar and believed while you were arrogant...?" Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people." (the Quran 46:10)

The above Holy verse refers to a Jew who confessed that Muhammad (sawa) is the messenger of God whom they were waiting for.
But I don't quote the historical evidence since they have been narrated by Muslim scholars.

Later, my opponent claimed that Philipe recognized Jesus and found out that he was the prophet. He only expressed his idea. But how can we make sure that Philipe was right? If Jews could be wrong, so Philipe could mistake Jesus for the Prophet. He said, "Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

But was Jesus the son of Joseph? If yes, then he was surely not the son of God.
If no, then what is the connection between Jesus and Joseph?
If Philipe thought that Jesus was the son of Joseph, then he was wrong. And how can we trust him when he said Jesus was that prophet?

Anyway, let's see what others say about "The Prophet":

"On hearing his words, some of the people said, 'Surely this man is the Prophet.' [1] Others said, 'He is the Messiah.' Still others asked, "How can the Messiah come from Galilee? Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David's descendants [2] and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?' [3] Thus the people were divided because of Jesus. Some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him." (John 7:40-44)

Again, we see another statement which "The Prophet" is distinguished from "the Messiah".
According to mentioned verse, The Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament was supposed to be from David's lineage. He must be from the Israelities. But what about the Prophet? Where would he come from? Can he be a foreigner?

The abovr verses give us ni clue. But let's see what the other prophecies have to say!

1. "Therefore in the east give glory to the LORD; exalt the name of the LORD, the God of Israel, in the islands of the sea." (Isaiah 24:15)

"Kedar's flocks will be gathered to you, the rams of Nebaioth will serve you; they will be accepted as offerings on my altar, and I will adorn my glorious temple." (Isaiah 60:7)

The term "East" in the Bible is defined as Arabia, and the lands of Kedar and Teman (Saudi Arabia)
God says the the people of Kedar would glorify him and His Temple which may refer to the Sacred Ka'ba.

2. "A prophecy against Arabia: You caravans of Dedanites, who camp in the thickets of Arabia, bring water for the thirsty; you who live in Tema, bring food for the fugitives. They flee from the sword, from the drawn sword, from the bent bow and from the heat of battle. This is what the Lord says to me: "Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the splendor of Kedar will come to an end. The survivors of the archers, the warriors of Kedar, will be few." The LORD, the God of Israel, has spoken." (Isaiah 21:13-17)

This prophecy refers to the Battle of Badr in which Prophet Muhammad (sawa) fought and miraculously defeated the polytheists of the Quraish (Kedarities) tribe. It refers to Arabia.

3. "Who has stirred up one from the east, calling him in righteousness to his service? He hands nations over to him and subdues kings before him. He turns them to dust with his sword, to windblown chaff with his bow." (Isaiah 41:2)

The east again may refer to Arabia.

4. "See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." (Matthew 24:25-27)

Jesus said that he would return as an Arab man. But as we can see he was still a Jew after resurrection!
So he says a prophet would come from the east.

Now we only have to find the connection between the Prophet, Arabia and Prophet Muhammad (sawa).

1. Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. God fulfilled his covenant with both.

"I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:13)

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers... and I will make him into a great nation." (Genesis 17:20)

2. Ishmael lived in Paran
"While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt." (Genesis 21:21)

3. Paran was in the south of Sinai in Egypt:
"He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes." (Deuteronomy 33:2)

4. Mount Sinai was located in Arabia
"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children." (Galatians 4:25)

Hagar was an Arab. Ishmael was an Arab too. They both lived in Arabia.

5. Keder was the son of Ishmael (25:16) and the descendants of Kedar lived in Arabia
"Arabia and all the princes of Kedar were your customers; they did business with you in lambs, rams and goats." (Ezekiel 27:21)

6. Prophet Muhammad lived in Arabia. He came from the tribe of Kedarities (Quraish). He was the descendant of Kedar, the son of Ishmael. So Prophet Muhammad was an Ishmaelite. And God promised Abraham to make Ishmael's descendants into a great nation. And here is it! God fulfilled His promise through Muhammad. This Great Nation are called, "MUSLIMS".

Muhammad is the Arab Prophet who were supposed to come from the east. That's why Arab Jews were waiting for an Arab prophet.

Let's get back to the main verse. My opponent wants me to define the "Brethren" according to the Bible. And I did it!

"And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." (Genesis 16:12)

"And he died in the presence of all his brethren." (Genesis 25:18)

The term "Brethren" in above verses refers to the sons of Isaac, the Israelities. So when Moses talks to Jews about their brethren, he is talking about the Ishmaelities. So the Promised Prophet is from the Ishmaeities. He also says that the Promise Prophet would come from Paran.

"This is the blessing that Moses the man of God pronounced on the Israelites before his death. He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes." (Deuteronomy 33:1-2)

As I mentioned earlier, Paran was located in Arabia. So the Promised Prophet in Deut. 18:18 is Muhammad (sawa)

My opponent claimed that the Prophet like Moses must do miracles and wonders. He probably has forgot the miracles of Prophet Muhammad (sawa), such as;
1. Shaqq ul-Qamar (splitting of the moon) mentioned in the Quran Chapter Qamar 1-4
2. Radd al-Shams (return of the sun) for Imam Ali. [4]
3. The tree that saluted Prophet Muhammad [5]
4. The miracle of Isra and Miraj.
5. The miracle of pigeon and spider which saved Prophet duting Hijrah to Medina [6]
6. The victory of Byzantines prophesied in Chapter Room 1-4

I can't mention all those miracles here. I will explain more in my next argument.

References:

[1] The Prophet like Moses of"Deut. 18:15"18

[2] 2 Samuel 7:12"16; Psalm 89:3"4; Isaiah 9:7;"55:3

[3]"Micah 5:2

[4] http://m.basharathsiddiqui.webnode.in...

[5] Qadi Iyad, ash-Shifa" i, 301; Ali al-Qari, Sharh ash-Shifa" i, 619; al-Khafaji, Sharh ash-Shifa" iii, 53; al-Haythami, Majma" az-Zawa"id ix, 6-7; Musnad iv, 170, 172; al-Hakim, al-Mustadrak ii, 617.

[6] Qadi Iyad, ash-Shifa" i, 313; "Ali al-Kari, Sharh ash-Shifa" i, 368; Musnad i, 248; San"ani, al-Musannaf, 389; Ibn Kathir, al-Bidaya wa"n-Nihaya iii, 179-81; al-Haythami, Majma" az-Zawa"id vii, 27; Ibn al-Qayyim, Zad al-Ma"ad (Tahqiq: Arnavudi) iii, 52; at-Tabrizi, Mishqat al-Masabih no: 5934; Maruzi, Musnad Abu Bakr as-Siddiq no: 73; Zayla"i, Nasb ar-Ra"ya i, 123; al-Haythami, Majma" az-Zawa"id vi, 52-3.
HardRockHallelujah

Con

Julia said "Because those who re-wrote and changed this book wanted Christians to think that the Promised Prophet is Jesus and not Muhammad (sawa). And it is a clear evidence that the authors of the Bible and those who interpret it falsely "concealed the truth while they knew it." (the Quran 2:146)"

My response: I said it once, and I am going to say it again, if you are going to accuse Christians of "hiding" the truth, then provide your evidence, simply quoting the Qur'an to prove your baseless assertion is circular logic, show me what we are hiding, anyone can make a claim, but any claim without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, it's that simple.

Julia said "My opponent, without giving any proofs, clamied that the Jews were wrong in assuming that the Christ and the prophet are two distinct persons."

My response: Without giving any proofs? Maybe you should actually read my response to John 1:19-21, my proof for them being wrong, is the very same chapter, Phillip says Jesus is the one whom Moses wrote about in the Law (John 1:45). Jesus himself said "If you believe Moses you would believe me, for he wrote about me." (John 5:46)
So not only Phillip says Jesus is that Prophet, Jesus himself says he is that prophet.
Moreover, in Acts 3:22-23, Peter quotes Deuteronomy 18:18 and applies it to Jesus.
Therefore, Jesus, Peter, and Phillip not only refute your interpretation of John 1:19-21, but also of Deuteronomy 18.

Julia said "Well, if we want to suppose that the Jews were wrong, what can prevent us from thinking that they were wrong in assuming that the Prophet must be an Israelite? They may have forgotten that Moses said the Prophet would come from Paran (Mecca). That's why Jesus came to remind people that a prophet would come from the east. Or maybe they didn't know where the Prophet come from, that's why they asked John."

My response: Julia, I already responded to this, and by the way, if the Jews were wrong in thinking that the prophet was an Israelite, then the text would've pointed that out later on, but instead we have not only the Jews, we have Peter, Phillip, and Jesus all agreeing that the prophet was an Israelite, and Jesus was that prophet, so the text refutes your assumption that "maybe they were wrong in thinking the prophet was not an Arab".

Julia said "Later, my opponent claimed that Philipe recognized Jesus and found out that he was the prophet. He only expressed his idea. But how can we make sure that Philipe was right? If Jews could be wrong, so Philipe could mistake Jesus for the Prophet. He said, "Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.""

My response: Again for the third time, I already responded to this, the text make is very clear the prophet was an Israelite, if that was wrong, the text would've later at least corrected the misconception of Phillip, but Jesus himself agrees, so what more do you need?

Julia said "But what about the Prophet? Where would he come from? Can he be a foreigner?"

My response: Julia....how many times do I have to say this....the prophet is an Israelite, Deuteronomy 17:15 makes that clear, Jesus makes that clear, the Jews make it clear, Phillip makes it clear, Peter makes it clear, the New Testament makes it clear. And here you expect me to throw out all this evidence and instead believe you.

Julia said ""Therefore in the east give glory to the LORD; exalt the name of the LORD, the God of Israel, in the islands of the sea." (Isaiah 24:15). The term "East" in the Bible is defined as Arabia, and the lands of Kedar and Teman (Saudi Arabia)"

My reseponse: First off, I just want to correct a mistranslation of Isaiah 24:15, in Hebrew, the word translated as "East" really means "in the realm of light", not the East. So even is the East means Arabia (which it doesn't, Julia just made that up), Islam is not is still not in view here. One more thing...the lands of Kedar and Teman are mentioned in Isaiah 60:7, but you have taken the passage completely out of context, Isaiah 60:7 has nothing to do with a prophet from Arabia, if you even bothered to read Isaiah 60 as a whole, you would see that this chapter is talking about the glory of Israel, not Arabia, not a prophet from Arabia, so trying to show that a prophet is being predicted in Isaiah 60 is to ignore what Isaiah is saying.

Julia said "4. "See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." (Matthew 24:25-27)
Jesus said that he would return as an Arab man. But as we can see he was still a Jew after resurrection!
So he says a prophet would come from the east."

My response: Julia, this is another perfect example of you missing what Jesus is saying completely. Did you even read the verse you quoted? Jesus is making an analogy of his second coming: "Just as lightning comes from the east and visible in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man". Jesus is simply making an analogy about how his second coming will be like, he's not talking about a prophet from "the East", just simply isn't the case.

Julia said "1. Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. God fulfilled his covenant with both.

"I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:13)

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers... and I will make him into a great nation." (Genesis 17:20)"

My response: You have no idea how badly I just facepalmed at what I just read...Julia quotes Genesis 17:20 and suggests that Ishmael will be "a great nation" therefore, he is part of the covenant. Well guess what...Babylon is said to be a great nation as well, here is the proof:
"Behold, a people cometh from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be roused from the uttermost parts of the earth." (Jeremiah 50:41).
Read the whole chapter, and you will see Jeremiah 50 is talking about Babylon. Just because Ishmael is said to be a great nation does NOT mean that he is in the covenant, if we use that same logic, Babylon is part of the covenant.
And secondly, you quoted Genesis 17:20, but you failed to read the very next verse which refutes your position:

"As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year.” (Genesis 17:20-21)
How long will this covenant with Issac alone (not Ishmael) last? The answer is given earlier in the chapter:
""I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. (Genesis 17:7).
So not only does the text you quote refute you, God himself says this covenant will last forever with Isaac, Ishmael is not part of the covenant, you can feel free to believe that he is part of the covenant, but trying to do so based on Genesis isn't going to work.

Julia said "And God promised Abraham to make Ishmael's descendants into a great nation. And here is it! God fulfilled His promise through Muhammad. This Great Nation are called, "MUSLIMS"."

My response: To be a great nation simply means to be prosperous, it has nothing to with the covenant God made, like I said before, Babylon is said to be a great nation, and we know what that means, it means to be prosperous, it does NOT mean to be part of God's covenant.
Here is the proof from Genesis 25, which is the fulfillment of the great nation promise to Ishmael:

" And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa; Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedem; these are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their villages, and by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations. (Genesis 25:12-16).
There ou have it, this is the fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham to make Ishmael a great nation. This has nothing to do with an event that happens nearly 4000 years later, God is simply saying Ishmael will have a prosperous nation, but his covenant is with Isaac (Genesis 17:21).

Julia also pointed to the fact that the Hadiths have stories of Muhammad doing all these supposed miracles.


My response: To be the prophet like Moses, you can't just meet only one of the requirements, you must meet ALL 3, even if he didn't fulfill one of the requirements, then he is not that prophet, plain and simple.
I already said it many times now, but i'll say it again, "brethren" means Israelite, NOT and Ishmaelite, Deuteronomy 17:15 makes that very clear. And once again, if you're going to quote a text, allow the text to define its own terms.
You can say "brethren" means Ishmaelite all you want, but trying to do so based on Deuteronomy isn't going to work.
Debate Round No. 2
Julia5678

Pro

My opponent insists that "The Prophet" is an Israelite. Well, let's accept it for now.
- If he's Israelite, then he's surely Jesus,
- If the Prophet and Jesus are the same, then Jews were surely wrong.
- If Jews were wrong, then they were waiting for the fulfillment of two prophecies, the coming of Elijah and Jesus, and no one else.
- If Jesus is the Prophet prophesied in the Old Testament, He had to fulfill all the prophecies in the Bible. Because no prophet will come after him. And nothing needs to be done after Jesus. He was the Promised Prophet mentioned in the Bible and foretold by other prophets.
If Jesus fulfills all those prophecies, then we can say that The Prophet in John 1 is Jesus.

Let's check out one of these prophecies and I want my opponent to answer my question:

"God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth. His splendor was like the sunrise; rays flashed from his hand, where his power was hidden." (Habakkuk 3:3-4)

We say that Teman and Paran refer to Medina and Mecca. My opponent can't deny it. At least, the Bible clearly says that Paran is located in Arabia.

Christians fail to answer how God would come from Paran, because they believe "There's no God in all the world except in Israel." (2 Kings 5:15)

They fail to explain how it refers to Jesus. Because they believe he's "only sent to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 12:54)

As Muslims, we believe this prophecy refers to Muhammad. But my opponent says that "the Prophet" is an Israelite who is Jesus. So I want him to explain;
What is the connection between an Israeilte and Arabia? How did Jesus fulfill this prophecy?

In many verses of the NT, we can see that Jesus proclaimed the coming of God's kingdom. Here are some examples:

- "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea. and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.'" (Matthew 3:1-2)

- "From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near." (Matthew 4:17)

- "Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people." (Matthew 4:23)

- "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (Matthew 6:9-10)

- "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: 'The kingdom of heaven has come near." (Matthew 10:5-7)

- "When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick." (Luke 9:1-2)

"After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.... Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'" (Luke 10:1-9)

We know that the term "Kingdom of God" is found 62 times in the NT while gospel of Matthew uses "Kingdom of Heaven" 31 times and they are used interchangeably and are the same as recorded in Matthew 19:23-24.

From above verses and similar statements, we understand that John, Jesus and his disciples were all bringers of glad tidings. They gave the good news of God's kingdom. It is really interesting that Jesus proclaimed the same message which John the Baptist used to preach.
Therefore, the kingdom of God didn't come during the era of Jesus as well as the era of John. Because Jesus never said that "God's kingdom has come". Rather; he gave glad tidings that the God's kingdom was near to come.

I don't want to define "Kingdom of God". I know my opponent will disagree with me and try to define it differently. So I just use one of the parables of Jesus Christ:

"He told them another parable: 'The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.'" (Matthew 13:31-32)

My opponent was a Muslim one day. So the above parable may remind him of the last verse of Chapter Fath in the Holy Quran:

"And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers." (the Quran 48:29)

Yusuf Ali Translation makes it clearer!
"And their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them." (48:29)

The parable of Jesus is similar to the above Quranic verse. It shows that the Quran confirms the saying of Jesus; and that Jesus was describing Prophet Muhammad (sawa) and his followers.
But my opponent will probably argue that I am not allowed to quote the Quran to prove that Muhammad was mentioned in above parable. He's right. So I let Jesus himself say that he was talking about Muhammad (sawa):

"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." (Mt. 21:43)

What's another nation? What nation beside the Jews (the Israelities) exist?

"Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed." (Genesis 21:13)
"
"And as for Ishmael... He shall beget twelve princes, I will make him a great nation.""(Genesis 17:20)

Yes! The Ishmaelities! Jesus said that God took His kingdom from Jews and gave it to another nation - the Ishmaelities, the Muslims!

But it's unfair to quote this verse out of context, right? Because my opponent may misunderstand and says that the other nation refers to the Gentiles which is not true. So let's read the whole story:

"Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. "The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said. "But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.'" (Matthew 21:33-44)

It is not too hard to understand that,
1. The owner of the vineyrad is God.
2. The vineyard is the religion
3. The walls and what was within it are the laws of God and the religious rituals
4. The tenants are Jews, the Israelities
5. The servants are the prophets who were killed by Jews
6. The son refers to Jesus whom is believed by Christians as the son of God
7. The Jews killed Jesus as Christian believe
8. What about the stone which was rejected? He is Prophet Muhammad who is the Seal of the Prophets.
9. And the other nation refers to Muslims, those who follow Muhammad!

Some Christians say that Jesus is the stone. Bit it's not true. Jesus was from David's lineage. He was from the Israelities. What does it mean that Jesus was rejected?
The stone refers to the Ishmael and his descendants who were humiliated and rejected by the Israelities.

"The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes. The LORD has done it this very day; let us rejoice today and be glad. LORD, save us! LORD, grant us success! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD. From the house of the LORD we bless you." (Psalm 118:22-26)

Firstly can we say that David who was from the Israelities was the rejected stone which became cornerstone?
Secondly, Jesus says, "Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed." (Matthew 21:44)
This parable is not true about Jesus. Read John 12:46-47. Jesus never fought or killed his enemies. But we know as a fact that Muhammad had many battles against his enemies.
"O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them." (Quran 9:73)
Thirdly, in the parable of vineyard owner, the son refers to Jesus. It is nonsense if we say the stone is again Jesus.

My opponent was Muslim one day. He has surely read this narration:

"Narrated Abu Huraira:"
Allah's Apostle said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets." (Sahih Bukhari: Vol. 4, Book 56, #735)

Read my comment please.
HardRockHallelujah

Con

Well I finally thank Julia for admitting that she is wrong about John 1:19-21.

Julia said ""God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth. His splendor was like the sunrise; rays flashed from his hand, where his power was hidden." (Habakkuk 3:3-4)
We say that Teman and Paran refer to Medina and Mecca. My opponent can't deny it. At least, the Bible clearly says that Paran is located in Arabia."

My response: Once again, Julia has managed to make every possible error she possibly could. Teman is not Medina/Mecca, not even close, Teman is Edom (modern day Southern Jordan) which is nowhere near Arabia.
Mount Paran is simply another name for Mount Sinai, where on Earth is Julia getting the silly claims that Teman and Paran as Medina and Mecca? She said the Bible saus Paran is in Arabia, which she gave no reference from the Bible, so no, I rejet your claims.

Julia said "Christians fail to answer how God would come from Paran, because they believe "There's no God in all the world except in Israel." (2 Kings 5:15)"

My response: I really don't know what your point is...what is it about this passage that proves your case? All this passage is saying that the God of Israel is the only true God. And by the way Habakkuk 3:3 is talking about GOD, nt Muhammad, so who do you think you are applying a passage about GOD to Muhammad? Do you even realize that you are guilty of shirk?

Julia said "They fail to explain how it refers to Jesus. Because they believe he's "only sent to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 12:54)"

My response: First off, Habakkuk 3:3 is talking about Jesus and his second coming. The passage says God, but Jesus is God, so this passage applies to him. Jesus being the image of the invisible God is the only one who can fit this passage because no one can see God the Father in all his glory and live. Jesus Christ is therefore the one possible candidate in view here.
Secondly, how about instead of taking the New Testament out of context, actually read what Jesus says in the very same Gospel you quoted...
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations" (Matthew 28:19)
Jesus ministry was only restricted to the House of Israel, true, but after his resurrection, the message would spread throught the world by his disciples. So read everything Jesus says, don't just take what suits your interests and ignore everything else that conflicts with your position.

Julia said "As Muslims, we believe this prophecy refers to Muhammad. But my opponent says that "the Prophet" is an Israelite who is Jesus. So I want him to explain;
What is the connection between an Israeilte and Arabia? How did Jesus fulfill this prophecy?"

My response: The answer is Jesus hasn't fulfilled it yet, because we are still waiting for his second coming. My question to you is how does Muhammad fulfill this? I already refuted your argument that Teman and Paran mean Mecca, so unless you can use the Bible to refute me, you have no argument from this passage. And most of all, the passage is talking about God. So unless you believe Muhammad is God, feel free to use this passage, but you are guilty of shirk.

Julia said "But it's unfair to quote this verse out of context, right? Because my opponent may misunderstand and says that the other nation refers to the Gentiles which is not true."

My response: I don't know what you are trying to prove here...are you seriously trying to use the New Testament to use it in the way the New Testament itself doesn't define its terms? The kingdom being given to another nation simply means the Jews because they rejected Jesus the Messiah, the Gospel would be preached to the entire world. I mean Jesus himself explicitly says this, so how are you trying to argue otherwise?

Julia then quoted Matthew 21:33-44 and proved that from this parable, he was predicting that people would reject Muhammad.

My response: Again, another case of Julia completely missing the point of Jesus' words and reading things into the text.
Julia was right for most of her exegesis, until she tried arguing Muhammad is the stone, which she is off completely. Jesus was simply quoting Psalm 118:22, which he interprets as meaning that Jesus, who is the stone will be rejected, but is the chief corner-stone (i.e leader). Trying to interpret a passage in Psalms about referring to a prophet outside of the nation of Israel is self-deating, because the Israelites were warned by God to not set as kings over them a foreigner (like Arabs), but only from among the nation of Israel.

Julia said "Some Christians say that Jesus is the stone. Bit it's not true. Jesus was from David's lineage. He was from the Israelities. What does it mean that Jesus was rejected?
The stone refers to the Ishmael and his descendants who were humiliated and rejected by the Israelities."

My response: It's not true? Are you really serious? Jesus quoted Psalm 118:22 and applied it to himself, he never quoted it and applied it to Muhammad, so you are once again reading things into the text. Just allow the text to speak for itself....

Julia said "This parable is not true about Jesus. Read John 12:46-47. Jesus never fought or killed his enemies. But we know as a fact that Muhammad had many battles against his enemies."

My response: Again the conclusion of Jesus' parable has to do with his second coming, so obviously it hasn't been fulfilled yet. Trying to take Jesus words as a prophecy of Jesus here is to miss the point completely.

Julia said "Thirdly, in the parable of vineyard owner, the son refers to Jesus. It is nonsense if we say the stone is again Jesus."

My response: Yeah, it is nonsense to say Jesus is the stone, even though that's what Jesus himself said that he was...then we are to assume that the stone is some Pagan Arab named Muhammad. You're completely distorting Jesus' words, and yet you think my interpretation is "nonsense" when I base my interpreation on the scriptures themselves, so I don't know, I think i'll go with what the scriptures say, not with what Julia says.

Julia said "My opponent was Muslim one day. He has surely read this narration:

"Narrated Abu Huraira:"
Allah's Apostle said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets." (Sahih Bukhari: Vol. 4, Book 56, #735)"

My response: I couldn't careless what Muhammad says, he is not an authority for me. It is your burden to prove he is a prophet predicted in the Bible, which you have failed to do so far. Simply quoting Muhammad for me and saying "believe it" is circular logic (assuming what you have yet to prove (i.e the prophethood of Muhammad). Stop assuming I think Muhammad is authoritative, because he is not.

Your job in this debate is to prove Muhammad is predicted in the Torah and Gospel, so please stay on topic.

Debate Round No. 3
Julia5678

Pro

Do you really think you refuted my claims? I'm sorry, I don't want to offend you but you proved nothing except your ignorance. Do you even read my whole arguments? You're just an obstinate one"like Walid ibn Ughbah, the uncle of Abu Jahl. Don't forget that I am ex-Christian. I know everything about the Bible. But you are new Christian. What do you know about Christianity? No wonder you can't understand my points.

I'm happy that you left Islam. If you went on this way, you would surely do takfeer all Muslims and accuse them of Kufr or even kill them.

It's interesting that you call me mushrik if I believe that Muhammad is God (Maadhallah), but you yourself clearly said that Jesus is God. You yourself make excuse to deny your shirk but it doesn't wipe out your sin.

And It's funny that when Christians can't explain a prophecy, they start talking about Jesus 2nd coming. What do you know about it? Do you think you can disprove my claims by talking about Jesus' 2nd coming? It just shows your ignorance. Don't be obstinate. Confess the truth instead of denying it.

You claim that Teman is located in Jordan. Ok, I say that Jerusalem is in Syria. How is it? Do you agree?
Teman was divided from the hills of Paran by the low plain of Araba, [1] According to the Dictionary of the Bible, under the word Teman, page 961, it states, Teman is a large oasis in the north of Medina. Arabia's social, political and moral aspects demanded a reformer. The prophecies testify for it.

You yourself told me not to quote Islamic sources to support my claims, so I proved Paran is Mecca through Bible and I wrote my references in my 2nd argument. Have you even read it?

As you admitted, Mount Paran is another name for Mount Sinai. And Paul tells us that Mount Sinai is in Arabia. So Mount Paran is also in Arabia. Because they'rre the same.

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children." (Galatians 4:25)

Some Christians agree that Paran in Arabia. But they say that it's a wide land and Mecca is just a tiny part. Do you know how we can prove that Paran is exactly Mecca?
The "Well of Zamzam" is witness - the only well in all around the world which is recorded to be the mentioned well in the Bible.

"God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, 'What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.' Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink." (Genesis 21:17-19)

The Well of Zamzam, the undeniable fact, [2] [3] [4] testifies for Mecca. The Desert of Paran or the Mount Paran refers to the region of Arabia. But the term "Paran" refers to Mecca. [5]

So This Paran must have been of great importance. And it would not be so unless it was the place that received the final revelation - the birthplace of the seal of prophets and the center of the new message. The verses about Paran will show you where the Prophet mentioned in John comes from. I never admitted that he was Jesus. I only said if he is, then he must fulfill all the verses about Muhammad. But there is no connection between Paran and Jesus. So let's see how Muhammad fulfilled such prophecies;

1. In Deuteronomy 33:2, we see Moses that God will execute His Holy Judgement in the city of Paran by 10000 Believers:

"And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand"went a fiery law for them."

We also read the same prophecy by Prophet Enoch:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones. to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (Jude 1:14-15)

Now, according to the history, the city of Mecca was liberated by Prophet Muhammad's 10000-men army. In 630 CE Muhammad returned to his native city Mecca, leading ten thousand people.

Narrated by Ibn Abbas: "The Prophet Muhammad left Medina (for Mecca) in the company of 10000 (Muslim saints) in the month of Ramadan, and that was eight and a half years after his migration to Medina, Muhammad and the 10000 Muslims who were with Muhammad, proceeded on their way to Mecca. Muhammad was fasting and his 10000 disciples also were fasting...." [Sahiee Bukhari, volume 5, Book 59, Haddith number 574]

That prophecy was about the conquest of Mecca fulfilled by Muhammad.

Where in the Bible do we see any Prophet executing the Judgement of God specifically in Paran?

If Muhammad who liberated Mecca with 10000 believers wasn't the one who fulfilled this prophecy, then who was that Prophet?

2. We read in the Bible,
"God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth." (Habakkuk 3:3)

In previous verse, Moses said that God came from Siniai. But as we know this phrase has a different meaning. God is Omnipresent. He is everywhere. We cannot say He is or comes from a specific place.
So that verse speaks of the revelation of God coming from Sinai to Moses, from Sair to Jesus and shining from Paran where is Mecca. None of Israelites, including Jesus, had anything to do with Paran, Please note also order the locations are mentioned, Sinai, Seri and Paran.

This prophecy says that "The Holy One came from Mount Paran," we know as a fact that Muhammad was born in Mecca and he received the revelation in mountains of Mecca (al-Hara). It says, "God came from Teman" because the message of Islam was preached to other lands from Teman (Medina). When we say we come from a city, it means that city is our hometown. Likewise, "The Holy One came from Paran" means Muhammad was born in Mecca.
The tribe of Quraish planned to kill the Prophet. However, he migrated to Yathrib/Medina. Muhammad and his followers lived in Medina for thirteen years. The above prophecy was about the migration of Prophet Muhammad which was fulfilled. The Holy one under persecution migrated from Paran (Mecca) to Teman (Medina).

3. After his arrival to Yathrib, the Prophet started building the world's first mosque. The mosque became the base from which the city received several major development projects in the social, agriculture, political and spiritual aspects that gave the city a whole new outlook. From then on, the oasis of Yathrib became known as "al Medinah al-Munawarah" or, simply "Medina," (The City of the Prophet)"
Incidentally, the Prophet's emigration and the events of his arrival were prophesied in Isaiah;

"A prophecy against Arabia: You caravans of Dedanites, who camp in the thickets of Arabia, bring water for the thirsty; you who live in Tema, bring food for the fugitives. They flee from the sword, from the drawn sword, from the bent bow and from the heat of battle. " (Isaiah 25:13-15)

All these verses prove that the Promised Prophet in Deut. 18:18 and John 1:19-21 is an Arab from Paran and the term "Brethren" means "A male offspring having only one parent in common with another offspring.". Since Prophet Muhammad is an Arab and has a direct blood relationship with Ishmael, then all these prophecies only fits him.

And about the stone, you claim that Jesus quoted Psalm to applied to himself. Are you sure? Can you read his mind? He has already applied the story to himself when he talked about the son. Jesus said the stone was rejected and used later. But was Jesus rejected? You claimed that Jesus was the promised prophet whom people waited for. So why should they reject him and used him later? Besides, Christians claim that David prophesied Jesus and and call him the Son of God. The Christian themselves have raised him to a deity? So why should Jesus say that he was rejected and used later?
Jesus said, "Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces;" As I said it only fits Prophet Muhammad. Because the Christians claim that Jesus told them to love their enemies.
- It was prophet Muhammad who fought against his enemies and killed them.
- It was prophet Muhammad who attacked polytheists to protect Muslims.
- It was prophet Muhammad who was the descendent of Ishmael rejected by the Israelities but when Orophet Muhammad came, they believed in him.
Here you can read the story of a Rabbi who testified that Muhammad was foretold by Moses
http://librarun.org...

Since prophet Muhammad is that stone, the other nation refers to his followers. I have quoted three verses in which God promised to make Ishmael into a great nation. Since the Israelities were the nation of Isaac, the Ishmaelites are the other nation and the parable of Moses confirmed by the Quran proves this.
You claimed that the gospel would preach to the whole world. But which gospel? The gospel of Barnabas? The gospel of Matthew? The gospel of John? There were no gospel at that moment and you can't put your own word in the mouth of Jesus. He clearly told us everything in the stiry of vineyard. He clearly said that Jews were disobedient and killed the prophets (Nehemiah 26:9; 1 Kings 10:19) and became cursed. On the other hand, God fulfilled his promise; he blessed Ishmael and made him a great nation.

Read my conclusuion in comments.

You have failed to refute my claims so far. Don't worry, I don't blame you.

[1] http://www.bible-history.com...
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
[3] http://www.central-mosque.com...
[4] http://www.erfan.ir...
[5] http://www.answering-christianity.com...
[6] http://www.immanuelapproach.com...
HardRockHallelujah

Con

Julia said "Do you really think you refuted my claims? I'm sorry, I don't want to offend you but you proved nothing except your ignorance. Do you even read my whole arguments? You're just an obstinate one"like Walid ibn Ughbah, the uncle of Abu Jahl. Don't forget that I am ex-Christian. I know everything about the Bible. But you are new Christian. What do you know about Christianity? No wonder you can't understand my points."

My response: The fact that Julia is getting pissed off tells me that she has no coherent response to what I am saying, just remember something folks, when your opponent snaps at you just like she did to me and insults me proves that she has NO response to anything I have said, so keep it up Julia, continue insulting me, that won't change the fact that your prophet is a false prophet. LOL!

Julia said "It's interesting that you call me mushrik if I believe that Muhammad is God (Maadhallah), but you yourself clearly said that Jesus is God. You yourself make excuse to deny your shirk but it doesn't wipe out your sin.

My response: I never said that Muslims say that Muhammad is God...show me at any point in this debate that I even made that claim, see, now you're just putting words into my mouth in my presence.

Julia said "And It's funny that when Christians can't explain a prophecy, they start talking about Jesus 2nd coming. What do you know about it? Do you think you can disprove my claims by talking about Jesus' 2nd coming? It just shows your ignorance. Don't be obstinate. Confess the truth instead of denying it."

My response: Ad hominem after ad hominem, when will it stop Julia, this is a debate, not an immature playground where we go around insulting people who disagree with us, if you can't keep your cool, then debating is not for you. You even believe in the second coming of Christ, so how are you even trying to object to it. If Christ isn't coming again, Islam is false. LOL! Shows my ignorance? Honey, it's called facts, confess the truth instead of denying it? Yeah, I confess the truth that Muhammad is not in the Bible.

Julia said "According to the Dictionary of the Bible, under the word Teman, page 961, it states, Teman is a large oasis in the north of Medina. Arabia's social, political and moral aspects demanded a reformer. The prophecies testify for it."

My response: My god, you just keep insisting that Teman is where your false prophet preached. I'll grant you for the sake or argument that Teman is Medina, just because how desperate you are...but you still haven't proved the passage is talking about a prophet FROM Teman, nowhere does the passage say "Teman is where the prophet is from" Nor does it even hint at it, it just mentions it in the passing. How desperate do you have to be....find a word that supposedly means "Medina" then you jump on it.

Julia said "You yourself told me not to quote Islamic sources to support my claims, so I proved Paran is Mecca through Bible and I wrote my references in my 2nd argument. Have you even read it?"

My response: Julia, if you insist that Paran is Mecca, fine, but as I said before....no passage in the Bible says that there is going to be a prophet from Paran, Deuteronomy 33 is talking about the LORD (not Muhammad) coming to Mount Sinai and giving the revelation to Moses and the nation. Habakkuk 3 as I already said in my previous rebuttal is talking about God, the passage says "God" Not Muhammad, so for the life of me, I don't know why you as a Muslim are takng passages that talk about God and applying them to Muhammad.

Julia said "So This Paran must have been of great importance. And it would not be so unless it was the place that received the final revelation - the birthplace of the seal of prophets and the center of the new message."

My response: Julia just comitted the fallacy known as non-sequitur, which is when you provide a premise, then follow that up with a false conclusion. For example: The ground is wet, therefore, today is the worst day of my life. It's when you jump from a premise to a conclusion that doesn't follow. How exactly does it follow from "Paran is of great importance" that "Muhammad is a true prophet"? Maybe instead of trying to fool gullible people with your fallacies, actually present better arguments.

Julia said "1. In Deuteronomy 33:2, we see Moses that God will execute His Holy Judgement in the city of Paran by 10000 Believers:
"And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand"went a fiery law for them."

My response: This passage says nothing about a prophet to come...just read what you quoted, it's in past tense, and more importantly, it's saying something that the LORD did, the LORD is the subject of this passage, this is indisputable, so trying to fit this and apply it to Muhammad is to ignore what the passage is saying.

Julia said "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones. to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (Jude 1:14-15)"

My response: Julia, did you even read what the pssage you are quoting is saying??? It is yet again in the past tense, because it is talking about something Enoch prophesied, he prophesied about the revelation of the Torah to Moses and the nation, this has nothing to do with Muhammad or his supposed revelations. The passage is very clear, it is talking about The LORD coming to Mt. Sinai and giving the revelation to the nation of Israel, not Muhammad.

Julia said "If Muhammad who liberated Mecca with 10000 believers wasn't the one who fulfilled this prophecy, then who was that Prophet?"

My response: For the last time already.........this passage is NOT (is NOT{IS NOT}) talking about a prophet, it is talking about the LORD, do you believe Muhammad is the LORD, well good for you, becasue you are now a disbeliever according to your own scripture.

Julia said "2. We read in the Bible,
"God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth." (Habakkuk 3:3)"

My response: I already responded to this claim about 3 times now....the passage is talking about GOD, is Muhammad God? "the Holy One" is a name for God in the Bible, so again if you think this is Muhammad, then you are equating your prophet with God and just committed shirk. Notice, I am not saying Muslims believe Muhammad is God. But what you'e doing by saying a passage talking about God is actually talking about Muhammad is you're equating Muhammad with God.

Julia said "the Prophet's emigration and the events of his arrival were prophesied in Isaiah;

"A prophecy against Arabia: You caravans of Dedanites, who camp in the thickets of Arabia, bring water for the thirsty; you who live in Tema, bring food for the fugitives. They flee from the sword, from the drawn sword, from the bent bow and from the heat of battle. " (Isaiah 25:13-15)

My response: Isaiah 25:13-15 doesn't even exist, so what exactly are you quoting?

Julia said "All these verses prove that the Promised Prophet in Deut. 18:18 and John 1:19-21 is an Arab from Paran and the term "Brethren" means "A male offspring having only one parent in common with another offspring.". Since Prophet Muhammad is an Arab and has a direct blood relationship with Ishmael, then all these prophecies only fits him."

My response: How exactly does the Biblical acrobatics you just did prove Muhammad is the brethren of the Israelites, for the love of God, I already said this 3 times now....anytime the Old Testament says "brethren" without qualification it ALWAYS refers to a fellow Israelite among the 12 tribes. So you have to demonstrate that from the context of Deuteronomy 18 that "brethren" means "Ishmaelite" especially when the ordinary meaning of the term is not "Ishmaelite". The very same book of Deutetronomy defines "brethren" as "a non-foreigner (i.e an Israelite)" (Deuteronomy 17:15). So how can you insist on something, when the very book you are quoting refutes your interpretation...

Julia said "And about the stone, you claim that Jesus quoted Psalm to applied to himself. Are you sure? Can you read his mind?"

My response: Uhm...because Jesus said so? Anytime Jesus says a parable, he is illustrting a point, the parable of the stone is clearly about Jesus, the context makes that clear, I am not just guessing, Jesus is clear as day that the rejected stone is himself, how he is talking about Muhammad is beyond me.

Julia said "Here you can read the story of a Rabbi who testified that Muhammad was foretold by Moses
http://librarun.org...;

My response: This story just demonstrates to me how desperate Muslims are, instead of actually pointing out the prophecies that talk about Muhammad, they have to resort to a made up story of a Rabbi who supposedly said Muhammad is foretold. There are obvious things wrong with the story that I notice...first of all, which prophecies did this "Rabbi" who I doubt was a Rabbi, point to? He didn't cite a single verse, which tells me that this story is a fabrication.
And just for the record, how does the testimoy of this one Rabbi prove Muhammad is a true prophet? I can find thousands of Rabbis who say Muhammad is not prophesied in their scriptures, will you then accept their testimony over the testimony of this lone Rabbi? Stop appealing to authority and actually give me your evidence from the scriptures. Appealing to authority proves what exactly.

Julia said "You have failed to refute my claims so far. Don't worry, I don't blame you."

My response: LOL! I've already refuted EVERYTHING you said, so what are you talking about? I guess you're too delusional to see that.
Debate Round No. 4
Julia5678

Pro

Julia5678 forfeited this round.
HardRockHallelujah

Con

Well I want to thank Julia for at least attempting to defend the proposition that Muhammad is in the Bible. I have respect for those who are willing to defend what they believe, so props to Julia for that.

But in conclusion, let's summarize what has been established in this debate: I pretty much already responded to well...everything that Julia argued for from the Bible being about Muhammad. She never gave an adequate response to my refutations of her claims, she just simply re-iterated what it is she argued for in the first place, which doesn't refute my objections to her claims, it just shows she had no response.

Then Julia at many times in the debate got mad at me and started slandering me and slandering my beliefs, which only shows you that she was getting to overwhelmed and had nothing better to say, which in case, proves to me that Julia can't debate without resorting to insulting her opponent, which does NOT prove her case.

So in answer to the debate: "Prophet Muhammad (sawa) is Prophesied in The Bible" as Julia put it, must be answered in the negative, I strongly believe I did a satisfactory job refuting all of her claims, i'll let you guys be the judge on that.

So here we have caught Muhammad in a lie, his claims to be found in the Bible end up turning nothing positive.

While the Bible doesn't explicitly prophesy the coming of Muhammad, there are a few places that we deduce is talking about Muhammad:

"And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray." (Matthew 24:11)

One most stirking to me is 1 John 2.
In 1 John 2, we are told what to think about the likes of Muhammad
.
Let me just mention the fact that the same Moses she appealed to called God the Father of his people, the same Isaiah she appealed to calls God the Father of Israel, the same Apostle John she appealed to calls God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Well that same John, has the following to say:

" Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:18-22)

I don't need to prove to Julia that Muhammad denied the Father and the Son, just look at Surah 9:30, and Surah 5:18 both of which explicitly in no uncertain terms denies that Jesus is the Son of God and denies the Fatherhood of God.

Remember what 1 John 2 said, he who denies both the Father and the Son is Antichrist.
Muhammad denied the Father and the Son....
Muhammad proves himself to be not a true prophet, not a prophet predicted in the Bible, but a prophet who falls under the stiffest condemnation of the Bible.
God's top three enemies are as follows:
#1 Satan
#2 THE Antichrist
#3 The many Antichrists who deny the Father and the Son

Muhammad is #3 on the list of God's biggest enemies according to the standards of the books Muhammad appealed to.

According to the Bible, without question, the eternal wrath of God abides on Muhammad.

Too late for Muhammad, but there is still hope for Julia, come back to Christ and the family of God, God will always welcome you with open arms if you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior. Do it before it's too late and you regret it for eternity.
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 2 years ago
HardRockHallelujah
Stop trying to debate me in the comments, I know you're running out of lies to say, but the debate happens in the rounds, not in the comments.

Al-Masihu Akbar!
Posted by Julia5678 2 years ago
Julia5678
I make a conclusion;
1. If Jesus is The Promised Prophet must fulfill the prophecies in the Bible. But he didn't.
2. The Promised Prophet must be like Moses, but Jesus is not.
3. Deut. 18:18 doesn't say anythng that the Promised Prophet must be Israelite. Moses just said he is from their brethren; and I mentioned the diffinition of this worrd, Jesus is not from the Ishmaelities.
4. The Biblical verses about Paran prove that the Prophet comes from Mecca. Muhammad is from Arabia as well as an Ishmaelite and he has fulfilled those prophecies.
4. Moses never said that the Prophet must get the revelation from God face to face. He says God would put His word in his mouth. Muhammad was unlettered, God revealed His word to him and he simply repeated it.
5. The Prophet recites the word of God in His name as Muhammad recited the Quran.
6. Only Muhammad fits this prophecy.
7. Jesus clearly prophesied Muhammad and described him as the Seal of Prophets.
8. The Kingdom of God will be given to Muslims.

In my next argument, I will mention the prophecies of Muhammad in New Testament.
Posted by Julia5678 2 years ago
Julia5678
Oh by the way, I made a mistake. I wrote David was from the Israelities. I meant Jesus. Sorry for that.
Posted by Julia5678 2 years ago
Julia5678
I wanted to explain about the similarity between Moses and Prophet Muhammad but my explaination about the kingdom of God became too long. In my next argument, I make a conclusion and prove you that the promised prophet is an Israelite and he is Muhammad. I will also explain about the Kingdom of God and the verses of the Quran which refers to the parable of Jesus.
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 2 years ago
HardRockHallelujah
walle,

That is exactly what I pointed out in my argument in response to Deuteronomy 18:15-18, check it out.
Posted by walle 2 years ago
walle
We know what like Moses should be. Go to Dueteronomy 34: 10-12.
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