The Instigator
FrackJack
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
airmax1227
Pro (for)
Winning
23 Points

Pro's Choice.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
airmax1227
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/2/2013 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,928 times Debate No: 35215
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (6)

 

FrackJack

Con

Airmax can debate me in any topic as long as we debate based on our beiliefs.




5 rounds
No semantics
8,000 characters.

Start you debate topic R1.
airmax1227

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for challenging me to this debate.

Since he has let me decide the resolution with the stipulation that it must be something I believe, I have decided to go with a topic in Old Testament linguistics.

The resolution shall be:

-The word "Alma" cannot be translated as "virgin"-

Expanded resolution:

The Hebrew word in the Old Testament "Alma" cannot be translated into the English word "Virgin".

More specifically, the passage "Isaiah 7:14", which translated in the KJV says:
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin ("Alma", translated as virgin) shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

I'll take the affirmative position of the resolution. I will prove that "Alma" does not mean virgin in the passage, and in fact cannot possibly mean virgin in any case. Rather the word can properly be translated as "young girl/woman" (or similar).

Because this debate has been set up for 5 rounds I will let my opponent make the opening arguments in round 2 or allow him to pass and have me begin with opening arguments in the same round which will still allow for plenty of rounds to argue.

The burden of proof in this debate will be shared. However since I am making the case against something that is often considered to be the conventional wisdom or status quo, there will be a greater emphasis on the burden of proof upon me. In other words, while my opponent needs to properly assert the established point of view, it will be incumbent upon me to show why that view is incorrect. If I am unable to do this to the a degree of significance necessary for disproving a well-established "fact", then my opponent wins this debate.

I'd once again like thank my opponent for challenging me to this debate and I look forward to seeing his opening arguments (or to him skipping his R2 and waiting for me to make mine).
Debate Round No. 1
FrackJack

Con

FrackJack forfeited this round.
airmax1227

Pro

Since my opponent has forfeited the last round I will wait for him to specify if he would like to make opening arguments or wait for me to make mine.

Even if my opponent defers his next round, there is still plenty of rounds to go to adequately debate this resolution. So I hope my opponent posts just one sentence saying one way or the other.
Debate Round No. 2
FrackJack

Con

I guess I'll wait? That's why I forfeited.
airmax1227

Pro


One of the most important aspects of Hebrew (specifically and especially in the OT) is that it is a conceptual language. Words don’t simply translate into other words, but describe an entire concept. While it is not always apparent in any individual usage of the word, when we seek out each and every place it is used, we can understand exactly what concept the word contains by it’s context. In the case of alma, its word usage seems consistent with a young woman of birthing age.


In all cases, this word will conceptually mean the same thing. Since the concept of a “young girl “ and a “virgin” are entirely different (Though obviously a virgin may be a young girl) and are not synonyms, if even one place in the OT the word Alma is used in such a way that it couldn’t possibly mean “virgin” then in no places could “Alma” mean virgin. Furthermore if the concept was intending to specifically mean “virgin” the word describing such is naturally available for use (the word B'thula).


Before exploring these verses and determining if there is a case in which inserting the word “virgin” would be impossible. Let’s first take a look at each time the word “alma” appears and see how it is translated in various English bible translations.


Keep in mind that each word describes a specific concept and should be understood universally throughout the Old Testament. If we chart exactly how any specific word is translated by various English/New Testament translations it should always be translated the same.


Because “Alma” is only used 7 times in the entirely of the OT, charting this will be very simple.


Let’s take a look at 6 incidences of its use:


Genesis 24:23, Exodus 2:8, Psalm 68:25, Proverbs 30-19. Song of Solomon 1:3, and Song of Solomon 6:8



In each of these examples nearly every English translation translates the word Alma as young girl, maiden, young woman or similar. This includes the following versions: The NASB, NIV, NLT, KJV, CEV, NJKV, BCV, Darby, NWT. Among these translations there, seems to be a consensus that the word Alma indeed means some equivalent to “young woman”.


Since these translations all seem to agree that “Alma” means a young girl, what exactly is the issue here?


While the translations in every other usage is consistent with the concept of “Alma”, in the other usage of the word, in the passage Isaiah 7:14, the following translations all translate the word to mean “virgin”:


NASB, NIV, NLT, KJV, CEV, NJK, NCV, Darby, NAB.


Since the translation in this passage has a very specific intent it’s understandable that it would translate it as such. However, if any of the previous passages referred to “Alma” as a concept that couldn’t possibly be a virgin, then it is a clear mistranslation. So let’s take a look at a few of these translations to see if the word can always mean virgin (and pertain to this concept) or couldn’t possibly mean virgin.


Exodus 2:8


(AKJV translation) “And Pharaoh’s daughter said to her, go. And the maid went and called the child’s mother.


(English standard) “And Pharaoh’s daughter said to her, go. So the girl went and called the child’s mother.


(Word English) “Pharaoh’s daughter said to her, go. The maiden went and called the child’s mother.


We can see from these three passage translations that these translations translate the word as a young girl equivalent. In each of these cases it’s pretty clear that conceptually from the context that the subject is a young lady.


Could the word “Alma” in these passages be translated instead though as Virgin. Yes, in fact the Young’s Literal translation indeed does.


“and the daughter of the Pharaoh said to her, Go, and the virgin goeth, and calleth the mother of the lad”


Since in the above passage, while it doesn’t seem to matter conceptually if the young lady in question is a virgin, it can still be translated as such, and thus doesn’t make my case that such a translation is impossible. So let’s move on to another passage.


Psalm 68:25


(New International)


“In front are the singers, after them the musicians; with them are the maidens playing tambourines”


While the translation of maidens makes sense here conceptually, interchanging it with virgin would still be possible. So let’s move on…


Solomon 1:3


(New internationa;)


“Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder all the young women love you.”


Like the above verse, while most translations translate it as “young women”, it could be replaced with virgin (and the English standard translation does) therefore this verse does not make the point.



Now the point here is that “Alma” must be able to be translated as virgin is all cases. If even in one, it is clear that the concept of “Alma” can not possibly mean “Virgin” then in all cases, it means something closer to “young woman” and couldn’t possibly mean virgin. So let’s now take a look at that passage.



Proverbs 30:19


The way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a young woman.


So what is this passage talking about? It is referring to things that leave no trace. A snake on a rock, a ship on the sea, and an eagle in the sky pass by and one has no idea that they were there.


But what about the final example? In this case, “Alma”, has to be translated as “young woman” (and one specifically that isn’t a virgin) and nearly all (except one I’m aware of) in fact translate it as “Young woman” (or an equivalent).


If we were to translate “Alma” here as a virgin, then the passage would make no sense whatsoever. Therefore “Alma” in this case CAN NOT mean virgin, and therefore in no cases can “Alma” mean virgin.




When the Old Testament was translated for people who generally couldn’t actually read it, the Greek word used for “Alma” in Isiaah 7:14 was parthenos. This word would closely translate to “virgin” but we can now see that this is a clear mistranslation. The word “Alma” has to mean “young woman” and not “virgin” or it doesn’t make any sense across the entire OT and therefore couldn’t be translated as such.



Given this, we can clearly see that “Alma” means a “young woman”, or equivalent (like maiden etc).



I’d like to thank my opponent, and I look forward to his response.


Debate Round No. 3
FrackJack

Con

FrackJack forfeited this round.
airmax1227

Pro

Extend arguments.
Debate Round No. 4
FrackJack

Con

FrackJack forfeited this round.
airmax1227

Pro

I guess my arguments go unopposed. If anyone is at all interested in debating this topic, please let me know.

Have a nice day.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Jellon 3 years ago
Jellon
I would gladly debate this topic! However, I do not insist that it MUST be translated virgin, but rather that it CAN RATIONALLY be translated virgin by an unbiased source.
Therefore, I would find it best if you took the position of Pro for the same topic, and I take the position of Con.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
All modern Bible versions were made by ungodly people and had to have a legal minimum of changes in the text in order to secure exclusive profits for the editors and publishers through copyright. The English speaking world has the Word of God in the King James Bible. The context in question here is a woman through whom Immanuel (God with us) was born. The blood comes from the father, the young woman in question had to be a virgin because if her baby had a human father, it would have corrupt sinful human blood and could not be Immanuel. The word is accurately translated "virgin" here. The conceptual language requires it in the context of Immanuel being born.
Posted by BennyW 3 years ago
BennyW
If it doesn't mean young woman in the prophecy then the prophecy is meaningless since young women have children all the time. A prophecy needs to have a unique element to it which virgin birth would be.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by johnlubba 4 years ago
johnlubba
FrackJackairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Ouch.
Vote Placed by MrJosh 4 years ago
MrJosh
FrackJackairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Reasons are obvious.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
FrackJackairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: FF. Con probably should have actually conceded (would have given them conduct), since deciding to give up and keeping the other side waiting for the clock to countdown each time, is very disrespectful.
Vote Placed by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
FrackJackairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: F.F. A real chutzpah, challenging the prez. & F.F. Which is really too bad, cuze I like this topic, & would have liked to see a good debate.
Vote Placed by TULIP 4 years ago
TULIP
FrackJackairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Subutai 4 years ago
Subutai
FrackJackairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: FF.